Women who wear burkas on the street in France face fines of £700

Great idea France has. To bad it could never happen here, between groups like the ACLU, terrorist front groups like CAIR, and the media, the courts would have time for little else.

Originally posted by mamabeth
The books,articles and videos I have seen and read,strongly state that
these women have to wear the burkas.If you have anything that refutes
what I have posted,then add it to the thread.
I would suggest watching the documentary...Obsession,radical islams war against the west,it is a real eye opener!

Behind the Spread of the Muslim Veil

Generally, Islamic religious scholars cite two verses in the Koran to support their consensus that Muslim women must, or should, cover their hair. The first is Verse 33:59, addressed to the prophet Muhammad and his family: "O Prophet! Tell Thy wives and daughters And the believing women, That they should cast Their outer garments over Their persons (when abroad): That is most convenient, That they should be known (As such) and not molested." Verse 24:31 states, "And say to the believing women That they should lower Their gaze and guard Their modesty; that they Should not display their Beauty and ornaments except What (must ordinarily) appear Thereof; that they should Draw their veils over Their bosoms."

But, writes sociologist Ashraf Zahedi, a scholar in residence at the University of California, Berkeley Beatrice Bain Research Group, "[T]hese citations emphasize modesty and covering the bosom and neck. There is no reference to covering female hair or to the head veil."

Ms. Zahedi is among a small but growing number of female Muslim scholars questioning the long-held consensus on head covering. Leila Ahmed, Amina Wadud, and Asma Barlas, to mention others, argue that because most interpretations of the Koran throughout the ages have been done by men, the holy book's support for gender equality has been obscured.

As Ms. Barlas, a professor of politics at Ithaca College in New York, said in a 2006 address at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands, "I am among those ... who argue that the reason the Koran has been read as a patriarchal text has to do with who has read it, how, and in what contexts. To make it clear, historically only male scholars have read the Koran ... always within patriarchies. That is why I call the dominant reading of Islam a misreading, which implies, of course, that I believe there can be a correct reading of Scripture."

I recommend reading the entire article. It's quite thoughtful and informative.

As the documentary you mention illustrates, much of the push to make Islamic women cover up is a recent reaction against Western imperialism.

They should do this in Australia. I am not allowed to wear a motorbike helmet or balaclava, why should they be able to cover their faces?

My friend used to be a bicycle delivery person and had to take his bike helmet off before entering any building or pretty much doing anything, yet Muslim women are allowed to cover their face all the time...

Im sick of people moving to western countries and expecting western countries to bow to their traditions. Yet if western women visit Islamic countries and decide to wear a miniskirt or even show their arms they are shunned and punished.

[edit on 8-1-2010 by Mikeraphone]

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
o post by DEEZNUTZ

 

I really dont have a problem with burkas, if women want to wear them then they should. In east london there are women in burkas and orthodox Jewish men and women, whose appearance is also very strange. There are also people in the more arty areas who wear some crazy clothes. People just need to get over themselves and live and let live.

Tolerance is a great thing. If someone wants to wear a burka or niqaab I have no problem, just as I have no problem if someone wants to wear a two-foot green mohawk.

From what I understand of the history of the burka in islamic culture, is that it was brought over by the Christian crusaders woman folk who influenced the Arabic upper classes, who took it on to distinguish themselves from the commoners. Sorry can't find a ref so flame away if it's hearsay and you can prove it!




[edit on 8-1-2010 by Wendroid]

[edit on 8-1-2010 by Wendroid]

Unless you have a one sided view on things this could be considered racism. It's like telling pakistanis to stop wearing turbans.

Originally posted by purplemonkey

Originally posted by Occy Anonymous
reply to post by DEEZNUTZ

 

You are an idiot, How can you say something like that without first living in one of these countries and experiencing the atrocities first hand? Moving shouldn't mean giving up your heritage, people shouldn't assimilate just because others are afraid of change. We need more diversity, not for everyone to be a blank generic clone of one nation.

wait let me get this straight, they shouldn't have to give up their culture... but we have to give up ours... ooookkkkk


[edit on 8-1-2010 by purplemonkey]

What a dumb ass statement and those that support it! You do NOT have to give up YOUR culture... you can have MORE culture! Why one thinks they have to give up their belief because of another belief! Why can't there be both beliefs and YOU practice what YOU like, and THEY practice what THEY want! SO simple, yet simple minded people are so brain washed with this patriotic crap, it makes me sick to my stomach!

LEARN to live with one another or DIE and leave room for those that will!@

I'm anti-religion and practice non then sprituality, but I don't tell you that YOU should stop practicing your religion because that would be irregant of me! I respect my boundry and by that I'm respecting yours, if everyone did that we ALL would be at peace, but there always has to some troll out there saying... "Change... oh no... I can't handle it... I"m brainwashed to think ONE way and no others can exist"!

I dont understand, A man or woman may seek or offer compensation for sexual services in France but they want to prohib burkas on streets?

Alright. Looks like it's now time to start fining people that wear hoods over their head when wearing a hooded sweatshirt.

This is fascism, really. Who really cares how people dress? Who even cares about cultural identity? If you need clothes or custom to define who you are as a human, you need to do some really deep thinking. Seriously.

[edit on 8-1-2010 by Whine Flu]

Originally posted by Whine Flu
Alright. Looks like it's now time to start fining people that wear hoods over their head when wearing a hooded sweatshirt.

This is fascism, really. Who really cares how people dress? Who even cares about cultural identity? If you need clothes or custom to define who you are as a human, you need to do some really deep thinking. Seriously.

[edit on 8-1-2010 by Whine Flu]

We can always make an exception[here at ATS] for assassins such as Ezio Auditore But as i stated before why would you walk into a public place with a bike helmet, stocking or hood?People use to wear hats in the old days but took them off in public places..It seems like it does not have a direct connection with Islam. We as people need to identify people, look them into the eyes, why would you hide your [key to the] soul and your beauty for the rest of the world, If you have a carrying husband there should be no need for that...[and not if he does not care]



[edit on 8-1-2010 by Foppezao]

Originally posted by serbsta

Is this too extreme?

Is this necessary?

On the one hand I can see why the French authorities would put laws in place for this, it is related to many identity/security issues. On the other hand I am a supporter of free will and the freedom to practice faith as long as it doesn't put another human being in harms way. What do you think?

More from the source:

Mr Sarkozy has called burkas ‘a sign of subservience that imprison women’, while immigration minister Eric Besson described them as ‘an affront to national identity’.

www.dailymail.co.uk...

[edit on 8/1/2010 by serbsta]

Lets just say i make up my own religion. And it is part of my faith to carry around an AK47...is that wrong?

Also, if i went into a bank with a crash helmet on, i would get in trouble. Yet i can go into a bank with a burkah on? Wierd...

Originally posted by Occy Anonymous
reply to post by DEEZNUTZ

 

[*SNIP*] How can you say something like that without first living in one of these countries and experiencing the atrocities first hand? Moving shouldn't mean giving up your heritage, people shouldn't assimilate just because others are afraid of change. We need more diversity, not for everyone to be a blank generic clone of one nation.

DEEXNUTZ is right, if they don't want to adapt to our way of life, then take 'em down to da pier der 'bye and pudem on a boot for 'ome! (just trying out a newfie accent in type...lol).

France and Australia are both correct and within their rights as countries. Assimilate or get the hell out. Canada, the US and Britain should use their example.

Diversity without assimilation to the host country's culture destroys the host country's society. It has happened that way all throughout history, the Romans, Spanish and the Portuguese are excellent examples of multicultural societies gone horribly wrong. These societies were at the apex of their development (at the time) and in waltzed multiculturalism and ruh roh, the downhill slide to mediocrity started. Multiculturalism is the bane of structured society and an affront to local community security and prosperity. It also changes the political topographic, creating a totally fractured, self interest group based, lobbyist driven culture. If you want to experience different cultures, go live in another country and live by their rules, I did.

For all the politically correct out there, we may give away one free clue later.

Cheers - Dave

[edit on 1/8.2010 by bobs_uruncle]

Wow! Bush's war on Islam is at its peak. Too many people are buying into this idea of hate the Muslims. And it's really working. It's getting pretty scary out there.

reply to post by Foppezao


Yeah, those are good points. Personally, I wouldn't hide myself in public as I think it's sorta rude to do. However, I generally think it's up to the individual concerning how they present themselves, and I'm fine with that. Some people present themselves in ways I would never imagine, but that's something they have chosen, and therefore it shouldn't be my concern. Though, of course my judgement does say otherwise.

In a way, it's kinda annoying that the women do present themselves in this manner. They hide a lot of beauty under those veils.

reply to post by RamsOnTop


No people hate EXTREMIST muslims. That makes sense. Most people dislike EXTREMIST ANYTHING.

NORMAL muslim people are typically one of the friendliest peoples i know!

I'm a Hindu girl and I have no problem covering my head in temple (and no your not made to cover your head in temple, some girls don't) I understand why I do it, I do it because there are Sannyasi and Brahmachari who are renounced and other guys in temple who are there to worship and it would be a really mean and get them all hot under the collar (us women have such a powerfully distracting effect on you guys) so I dress modestly and cover my head (hair is seen as very beautiful in asian culture).
Covering my head is not only a visual signal that I'm not there on a sexual level but also part of the ritual of being in temple which helps with my 'mindset'.

If I where forced to cover my head outside the temple I would have a BIG problem though.

[edit on 8-1-2010 by Wendroid]

Originally posted by Mr Headshot
reply to post by Occy Anonymous

 

Quit being a child. Nobody is forcing these people to go to France and there are muslim countries which aren't that bad. If they want that culture not go to where that culture is the norm?

Uh you do know that MANY of those muslims were BORN and raised in france. Which makes them 100% french, and it's all they know.

This is a really pathetic and stupid law, just shows how low the goverment has become.

reply to post by _Phoenix_


you are very small minded. think of the security risks. we might as well all walk around in balaclava's.

Originally posted by Whine Flu
reply to post by Foppezao

 

Yeah, those are good points. Personally, I wouldn't hide myself in public as I think it's sorta rude to do. However, I generally think it's up to the individual concerning how they present themselves, and I'm fine with that. Some people present themselves in ways I would never imagine, but that's something they have chosen, and therefore it shouldn't be my concern. Though, of course my judgement does say otherwise.

In a way, it's kinda annoying that the women do present themselves in this manner. They hide a lot of beauty under those veils.

exactly and if they have a good and "faithfull" husband there should be no reason to worry, or actually for the husband to worry..

Originally posted by Mikeraphone
They should do this in Australia. I am not allowed to wear a motorbike helmet or balaclava, why should they be able to cover their faces?

My friend used to be a bicycle delivery person and had to take his bike helmet off before entering any building or pretty much doing anything, yet Muslim women are allowed to cover their face all the time...

Im sick of people moving to western countries and expecting western countries to bow to their traditions. Yet if western women visit Islamic countries and decide to wear a miniskirt or even show their arms they are shunned and punished.

[edit on 8-1-2010 by Mikeraphone]

This is a tricky thing when you get people like this www.dailymail.co.uk... who abuse the crime and disorder act where it states

* Require any person to remove any item which the constable reasonably believes that person is wearing wholly or mainly for the purpose of concealing their identity.

* Seize any item which the constable reasonably believes any person intends to wear wholly or manly for that purpose
here in the UK. nwhsa.redblackandgreen.net...

And then stuff like this goes on www.google.com...

Is a suicide vest a "cultural choice" of attire that we should all respect too?

I don't often agree with France's political decisions, but bra-vo for this one.

Immigrants must assimilate, period, regardless of what country is viewed, or the end result will always be conflict. Immigration without assimilation is nothing more than a soft invasion. If the host population does not take steps to maintain their own culture as dominant, then they will in turn be supplanted and essentially surrender their territory without so much as a whimper.

If country A sucks, it's usually because of the decisions of the people who live there. If those same people relocate to country B, and just do the same thing, guess what? Soon country B starts sucking just as bad as country A. If the residents of country B don't want this to happen, they must either prevent the immigration in the first place, or take measures to ensure that nonconformers are emigrated if they refuse to assimilate. The 'secret surprise' is already out of the box in France, and this is a culturally defensive step. It's that simple.

By this, I don't mean one should disavow everything from a previous culture in favor of the adoptive land. Cultural differences should be used to enrich a host society, not bullishly demand submission and even conversion. America became a cool place to be because you could walk down the street and choose from a Mexican restaurant, a Jewish deli, a French bistro, or an All-American greasy spoon (among others)! I've got nothing against falafel either, but if the falafel joint owner moves in and demands that falafel be served in all restaurants because in his homeland all restaurants have falafel, there's going to be a lot of PO'ed individuals who want their pizza slice who are going to have something to say about that.

You don't have to give up your culture to live in another country. Most people will welcome the diversity if it is given freely and with choice. It's when you start ramming your culture down everyone else's throat and demanding concessions from your benefactors that a backlash occurs.

Bottom line: Whether you view it as right or wrong, France has collectively decided that Burqas suck and are not permissible there, and have formalized and declared this stance publicly, and are seemingly set to enforce the measure. Burqa lovers, France don't want you! Don't like it? Get out!

Let's face it people, who really and truly thinks that they should cover themselves from head to toe at ALL TIMES, lest someone *gasp* see them? Does anyone *truly* think this is a good thing? If so, is it anything more than religious brainwashing or a self-loathing personality disorder? I just don't see the burqa as a viable clothing choice for any right-minded human being. I can't help but wonder what the poor women under these burqas have to say about all this.

Any woman who feels she must encase herself in a full body shapeless garment in order to not be viewed as lewd or be "justifiably" raped lives in the company of despicable men.