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Women who wear burkas on the street in France face fines of £700

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posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 03:41 AM
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Originally posted by Occy Anonymous
This is an infringement on religious freedom.


except the burka is cultural, not religous




posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 03:42 AM
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Originally posted by Mr Headshot
reply to post by seattletruth
 


Yep I'll go back to my Hitler worship and cross burning, it's awful cold out here anyway.

Quit being a tool, I agree with unicorn.


Who exactly am I a tool for?

For freedom of choice? For freedom of people? For freedom of choice to wear clothes that they want to wear? For freedom of religion? For freedom in general?

You're absolutely right, then. I am a tool. And proud.


Now think about yourself. What are a YOU a tool for? Fascism. Censorship. Unification. You are a tool for everything negative about western culture, and forcing it upon everyone else. You are a tool for those who want us all to be slaves to the bankers, slaves wearing Walmart clothes or American Eagle.

Mussolini would really be proud that people are still digging his ideologies and running with them as if they're brilliant.

[edit on 8-1-2010 by seattletruth]



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 03:46 AM
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Originally posted by rapunzel222
Good. burkas are used in the oppression of women and are a BAD symbol against womens rights. they SHOULD be banned, until all women have a genuine CHOICE as to whether they want to wear it or not.

if there's no choice, its oppression and needs to stop.



WTF? You make no sense. You say that we should give them a CHOICE, but say that they should be banned? How is that giving somebody a choice to wear them? Oh wait, they should only have the choice if it happens to agree with your fascist viewpoint.

You said that forcing them to wear it is oppression, but forcing them NOT to wear them ISN'T oppression?

Your logic fails on many counts.



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 03:47 AM
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reply to post by dereks
 


Actually I think the burkah is both religious and cultural, their culture is heavily entwined with their religion.



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 03:49 AM
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Originally posted by rapunzel222

Originally posted by heyo
I smell the feminist movement. They've also recently made insults illegal in marriage. It irks them no end to see women subjugated, and are adamant in their solipsism.
That being said, it's no one's business what the french do except the french. Take Quebec for example. They are aggressive in maintaing their culture and have succeeded in doing so because of it.


the reason for the feminist movement is that generations of women finally got sick of being abused by men. Learn some history before posting ignorant comments..


This burka situation being caused by the feminist movement has nothing to do with the reasons that the feminist movement came to be. That's like saying because something was started as a noble cause it doesn't matter what they do after that. I was born innocent, so it doesn't matter what I do. I think you need to either learn or relearn english, or perhaps brush up on your comprehension.



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 03:57 AM
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Originally posted by Occy Anonymous

Originally posted by purplemonkey

Originally posted by Occy Anonymous
reply to post by purplemonkey
 


how are u in any way giving up your own culture? this is one world, one people who are all different but the same, they shouldn't have to give up their cultures to suit others. You can still have you culture so long as it doesn't include bigotry or racism.


why can't i have a 'racist' culture... because you think it's wrong??? and why are you right?

enough with your cultural imperialism



Really? Think about what you just said. Heil hitler somewhere else mate.


i was making reference to culturalism imperialism and how you exclude things which your culture precieves to be wrong... i probably over estimated your intelligence, im sorry.



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 04:00 AM
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Originally posted by Occy Anonymous
reply to post by DEEZNUTZ
 


You are an idiot, How can you say something like that without first living in one of these countries and experiencing the atrocities first hand? Moving shouldn't mean giving up your heritage, people shouldn't assimilate just because others are afraid of change. We need more diversity, not for everyone to be a blank generic clone of one nation.


I really dont have a problem with burkas, if women wnt to wear them then they should. In east london there are women in burkas and orthodox Jewish men and women, whose appearance is also very strange. There are also people in the more arty areas who wear some crazy clothes. People just need to get over themselves and live and let live.



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 04:07 AM
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A question needs to be asked here

are burkas ever forced on to individuals any where in the world?

If so France as a country has the right to review their "use" within it's own borders. As a democracy it has to legislate for the majority of the population and if there is a danger of some of its citizens in certain areas to be coerced or pressured into this situation, whether for cultural or for religious reasons, then they are quite correct in their actions

If someone can prove and assure me that there are no women anywhere in the world that have been forced or pressurised into wearing a burka, I will of course rescind the above statement

[edit on 8/1/10 by osc121]

[edit on 8/1/10 by osc121]



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 04:08 AM
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reply to post by purplemonkey
 


So then you believe in freedom of culture so long as it's your own then???

Seriously mate, wake up.



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 04:11 AM
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Just to clarify, I am simply stating that forcing someone to not wear a burkah is just as bad as forcing someone to wear a burkah.

The government is being hypocritical in stating that women who wear burkahs should be fined, it doesn't make sense to say we promote freedom, so long as we control it. The laws should be for the protection of women who CHOOSE to not wear burkahs not forcing them all to take it off.



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 04:21 AM
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reply to post by Occy Anonymous
 


So its in there religion to subjagate women, treat them worse than animals or as substanard humans, kill gays, stone to death anyone that breaks there religious laws and its part of there culture so it must be ok then?

Jog on religious types move to my counrty and have it your way just be sure to make sure the locals are also forced to obey we are all one world.

Tell you what how about you move to another country and see how far you get trying to force your ways on them, I dont think you will last long.

Freedom of choice is not a right to force your ways on another. If one culture is happy to adjust then all fine and well but none and I mean none of these people where forced into moving to France or live in France.

They made a choice they need to live by Frances rule or move to another country that suits there views better.

I garuntee though none of them will because there is a big lack of wellfare states in muslim countries, there is not the same freedom of choice nor as much oppertunity to advance through life.


+6 more 
posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 04:22 AM
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I'm all for multiculturalism, and I don't care if people wear burkas or run around naked.
The people I know in Australia who would like an anti-burka law are not Aussies trying to deprive women of their right to choose, they are Muslim women who want to live as Muslims here without their menfolk being able to force them to cover up.

Howard, who I always despised, has been bagged here for his speech to Muslims. However many women in Australia were glad to hear it, as they were sick of being leered at, groped and treated as sluts by the Muslim males here. We have had Muslim clerics here preaching that Australian women in normal summer clothes are "meat left out for dogs," just asking to be raped. And many terrible rapes have been carried out here by Muslims who have proceeded to accuse the women in court of deserving it.

I can no longer catch a taxi as most taxis in this area, (Bayswater,) are driven by Muslim men. They treat you like crap from the moment they see you are travelling alone, delighting in trying to frighten you. One tried to force himself on me, pushing his way into the back seat, grabbed my handbag and drove me down to Dandenong with the doors set so I couldn't open them. He told me to get out in the middle of the intersection and threw my bag out into the traffic when I wouldn't.

Dandenong was about 40k from where I was wanting to go.

I rang the taxi company and complained, and they said if I made the complaint official they'd prosecute me for not paying my fare. I contacted the ombudsman and he said I could do nothing, as it was my word against the driver's. - Well of course it was, those cowards are not going to go that far in front of witnesses. Sadly that was not the first or last time I had Muslim drivers try to make me have sex.

BTW, I'm in my 50s and dress like a lady, not like a slut, so god knows how skimpily dressed young women are being treated.

This is the background of women wearing the burka. On the one hand they are pressured by their men into wearing it because these men believe women are sluts if they don't. On the other hand the women are indoctrinated into believing any show of skin is shameful, and that it's always a woman's fault if a man rapes her or treats her badly.

One of the saddest things I've seen is a lovely Muslim boy, caring and intelligent, grow up to be a violent leering brute like his father. That has finally convinced me. We should not let Muslim men emigrate here at all. They don't come here looking to freely practice their beliefs. They come here looking to impose their way of thinking on the rest of the world, treating us with hatred and contempt, and feeling justified in raping and abusing any woman who, by their standards, is uncovered.

Things were not always like that with Muslims here. I knew some 30 years back, who had lives here 20 years already, who were content to mind their own business and just be like any other migrant family with their own beliefs. Actually I worked with them for a few years in a home business. I was the only non-Muslim there, and really enjoyed the warm-hearted family environment.

Multiculturalism means different cultures living side by side, in harmony. The Muslim men coming out here now are not interested in that, they want to impose their ways onto us.

On the other hand most of the women do want to integrate and make friends with all types of Australians, but if their men can force the burka on them they don't have much chance to.


There are also health issues at stake. Australia is hot enough without having to wear a thick black tent, and humans all need sun on their skin to make vitamin D. Wearing a burka means vitamin D deficiency with all the ills that go along with it.



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 04:26 AM
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Although I can definately see why the French are doing this and there are very good reasons behind it, I can't help being concerned as to where this may lead. Whats next I wonder? I remember being asked to leave places because of how I was dressed in my younger years as I was a punk then a goth. Shouldn't we be able to wear whatever we like? I guess that same argument could be applied to offensive slogan tshirts and kkk robes tho.....
Its a tough one and Im totally conflicted. Not sure i'm happy with the state infringing on another freedom regardless of what it is.
Great subject and discussion OP. thanks


Edit to add: S&F OP, I like threads that provoke a good debate and make me think!

[edit on 8-1-2010 by xtr3m3paranoia]



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 04:33 AM
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Originally posted by jpmail
reply to post by Occy Anonymous
 


So its in there religion to subjagate women, treat them worse than animals or as substanard humans, kill gays, stone to death anyone that breaks there religious laws and its part of there culture so it must be ok then?

Jog on religious types move to my counrty and have it your way just be sure to make sure the locals are also forced to obey we are all one world.

Tell you what how about you move to another country and see how far you get trying to force your ways on them, I dont think you will last long.

Freedom of choice is not a right to force your ways on another. If one culture is happy to adjust then all fine and well but none and I mean none of these people where forced into moving to France or live in France.

They made a choice they need to live by Frances rule or move to another country that suits there views better.

I garuntee though none of them will because there is a big lack of wellfare states in muslim countries, there is not the same freedom of choice nor as much oppertunity to advance through life.


First: No. Women a should be worshiped, and beating them is a personal choice not a religious one as for homosexuality again you are basing what little you know about Islam on the radicals you hear about on your media.

Second: I am fairly anti-religion, I believe it is a tool used by the weak to keep people down. But I do understand how important it is to people and why we needed it.

Third: I was born and spent the first 10 years of my life in Israel under strict jewish parents I got sent to Australia after turning my back on religion. Don't ever try to patronize me again with that kind of stuff cause I know all about forceful rule and what it does. You know nothing about it.

If you actually believe that all muslims are there to simply rort the government you are as delusional as any I've met, they come to these countries to escape poverty and because they believe their beliefs will be accepted in to that society, your POV is blatant racism.



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 04:40 AM
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reply to post by Kailassa
 


What a fantastic reply to the thread. I agree that we seem to be moving further and further away from being multi cultural in many ways not more of living side by side.

Looking at the UK alone there are vast area's that are no go areas for any but the "insert cultural type". To move to a country then set up areas where your language your ways are the only thing tolorated seems to be the norm.

We have a indian restaraunt where we live the first family that ran it where well liked in a small village setting and great people.

The moved to a bigger premisses out of the village and the new onwers where so surley and abusive the shops trade delcined and it closed.

It goes to show that being friendly with people does not mean you have to accept there way of life or views just be repectful of the differences and the views and culture of your host country.

There is a culture now though of being PC when ever views are questioned imediatly theres crys of where is our freedom where our rights or your a Nazi or a islamaphist there needs to be an open and honest debate.

Its not hidden that the burka is used to subjagated the women as per your reply so why should it be tollorated in a non muslim equal rights country?



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 05:01 AM
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reply to post by Occy Anonymous
 




First: No. Women a should be worshiped, and beating them is a personal choice not a religious one as for homosexuality again you are basing what little you know about Islam on the radicals you hear about on your media.

I am sure you are aware there is not a great deal of repect for women in Islamic culture. There religious views on homosexuality are part of the Koran so you telling me that its acceptable in a muslim culture to be gay?

Second: I am fairly anti-religion, I believe it is a tool used by the weak to keep people down. But I do understand how important it is to people and why we needed it.

This I total agree with in part we dont need religious countries (any of them) and the rulers of religion need it so the masses will do as they are told or go to hell.

Third: I was born and spent the first 10 years of my life in Israel under strict jewish parents I got sent to Australia after turning my back on religion. Don't ever try to patronize me again with that kind of stuff cause I know all about forceful rule and what it does. You know nothing about it.

I say good on you it was not my intent to patronize you but it means you of all people know what it is like to live like that you also know that it would have done no good trying to change there way of life. You see what I mean?

If you actually believe that all muslims are there to simply rort the government you are as delusional as any I've met, they come to these countries to escape poverty and because they believe their beliefs will be accepted in to that society, your POV is blatant racism.

No but the majority do nothing to stop the minority of so called bad muslims and I garuntee you if Muslim law became law in any western counrty how many of the so called good muslims are gonna try and stop it. There is also no denying that some people will move to another coutry for the welfare, healthcare benifets or even just the propect to better themselves

Lets also look at the definetion of racist.

. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.


None of these deffinitions cover what I said. It is not rasict to point out the reasons why people move to another country nor that some will try and force there views on the host nation.

Its always easy to pull the race card when someones point of view does not fit in with your own. You have just done to me what you claim I did to you.



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 05:18 AM
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Are you saying Christian doctrine doesn't do the same to women? Name me one religion that does promote homosexuality.

good to know.lol.

Both sides in Israel are at fault, they are both ignorant of each other and stuck in a loop.

NO! it is not the majority at all, people only take notice of the bad ones, the media only reports on the bad ones so people assume that is the majority. The majority are good people who you wouldn't even notice in everyday life. They just want to live their lives free of prejudice and give their children a chance they never had.

Yes actually all those definitions matched it: 1. by supporting Frances law, you are stating that one race is superior and has power over the other. 2. Not you personally, but the bulk of western countries governments are discriminatory of middle easterns even if they don't admit it: when was the last time you saw a pro-muslim story on the news? 3. By not giving the women a chance to decide whether or not to wear a burka you are being intolerant to their beliefs.

It is easy to pull the race card, however when one makes such strong statements as you own it's alot easier.



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 05:49 AM
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reply to post by Occy Anonymous
 


I have to say on the homosexuality part I agree no religion supports it but you pointed out my supposed ignorance of Islam and its culture.

I also really liked your reply on the rasict definition. For the first point I dont support the spirit of the law because I agree it takes away choice. It would have been better to pass a law that criminalised the forcing of wearing a burka.

I have to thank you for keeping me on my toes I will have to make sure I am more percise in my statements so that my meaning is understood in the correct context

I do though support France in that it that a country should be able to pass laws which cover the will of a majority of the people that live there. To me thats what democracy is about majority rule.

I really dont see myself as a racist and maybe thats flawed but I have never had an experiance where I hated someone because of there culture, colour or beleifs.

I have in my personal life judged people on how they treat me and others around me. If that can be considered racist then I must be.



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 06:21 AM
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reply to post by jpmail
 


HAHAHAH, sounds like everythings all sweet and sorted then. Thanks mate, it was fun.No, saying a slightly racist comment doesnt make one racist I jumped the gun my bad.

But yeah the law should be against the forceful wearing of one, ah well it's a crazy world.

peace out brother.



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 06:30 AM
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Originally posted by purplemonkey

wait let me get this straight, they shouldn't have to give up their culture... but we have to give up ours... ooookkkkk

[edit on 8-1-2010 by purplemonkey]


Where does it mean that you lose your culture? I don't get the point. This is bit idiotic for 'free' western societies.



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