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Right Wing Reverse Psychology Blame Game - The Left is always Responsible For All Bad Things Past Pr

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posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 10:57 PM
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Left wing, right wing. Democrat and Republican. They are all terms used to divide people from being Americans! The politicians in both parties are as equally corrupt and none of them represent the American citizens. Wake up! Before it's too late.




posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 11:08 PM
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I think maybe what your country needs to prevent the bloodbath and to advert idiocracy, is a peaceful, yet extremely powerful, a great speaker, a philosophical thinker; basically a mix between MLK and Gandhi... Someone who can speak the words and live by them.

I don't want to seem to be lecturing a boomer! You have lived much more than I have!

Here's my .02$ and, once again, please correct me if I am wrong. IMO, unfortunately, there is a very strong correlation between the will for peaceful change by some groups and the will for violent repression by other groups. We can only hope that the right people win, and that those who chose to use violence either use it properly and for the right reasons, or don't use it at all.

Peace my friend

Magnum



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 11:29 PM
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Originally posted by hangedman13
I love these left vs right crap
But I must jump in with a question.




The left is guilty of being spineless, they should have used the majority to ram health care through faster.


Now with all the wheeling and dealing within the Democratic party how do you think they would ever have been able to do it? They had to sweeten the deal in their own so called majority! Why? Now that should tell you a little something about what they were doing. In addition how many Democrats announced they wouldn't run for re-election? So how is this part of the "right-wing reverse psychology etc etc?

[edit on 7-1-2010 by hangedman13]


Hi Hangedman13 Thanks for posting.

I'm with you on that one. There should not have been, but like you say, they had to wheel, and deal and squeak it through all watered down, and laden with pork. I don't like that kind of pork anymore than you do.

How they could have done it is to have been more aggressive with their own, and if the obstructionism at all cost had not been there.

Opposition yes. But threre was not enough opposition.

When you don't have the votes in the House, specially in time of war, you don't just say no to obstruct. You accept the will of the people.

The big anti Health Care movement was not grassroots, it was manufactured by Republican, and Conservative Politicians, and a few talk radio maniacs.

There are other issues Obama needs to deal with, if he's going to accomplish much. Some here will disagree, but he has accomplished as much as he could under the circumstances. Foreign affairs is an important part of global politics. There he has accomplished much.

I'll bet you 10 to 1 that if the economy continues to improve, and it is. The Dems will retain control. Dodd was a problem. He had to go. a few will jump but there are popular center Dems that have no Health Care blood on their hands who can replace the retirees.

I think Obama's plan is to pass Health Care, then fix it, after we get some jobs, and economic relief.

Afghanistan is now his war. Terror is now his war, Iran and North Korea are his problem. He's got a full plate.

At the same time there is domestic unrest. I'm all for, opposition, demonstrations, rallies, town halls, the works. But not the kind where idiots come armed, to a town hall where the President is in attendance in time of war Sorry not a wise thing. For me it's like yelling fire in a crowded theater, somebody is going to get hurt.

How is a deceitful civilian any better than a deceitful politician. They are the same. People that read you a sermon of freedom, when they intend to get you to blink, so they can take away yours are heinous.

Way too many lies and secrets for me.

Thanks and peace to you

Ziggy



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 11:36 PM
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Originally posted by ziggystrange
Specifically, it's about deception, delusion, lies, revisionism, and hypocrisy

Ah! The 2008 Democrat Campaign Platform! I love it!

Seriously, though, this Vast Right Wing Conspiracy *snip* doesn't wash any better today than when Hillary Clinton first tried to float it back in the 90s.

And, really seriously, Republicans (I suppose you mean Conservatives) don't have to do a thing between now and November. As long as they stand back and disassociate themselves from the Democrat socialization agenda, the Democrats will destroy themselves, if they haven't done so already.

The deal is done, the bets are in.

— Doc Velocity

Mod Edit: Removed a censor circumvention. Let's use the peoples actual name please.

[edit on 1/18/2010 by seagull]



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 11:46 PM
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Originally posted by Alien Mind
reply to post by ziggystrange
 


You talk as if democrats are completely innocent. You are doing everything you blame republicans of doing by targeting republicans. Next time try starting a thread that doesn't make you out to be some liberal thats upset because obama lied about spreading the wealth.

Thread Failed


I never said the Democrats were guiltless. This is what I'm talking about.
Read the OP before you post.

No, I'm flushing out bottom feeders and sorting them out.

Republicans make up a large percent of the population, and most are fine people. The majority of the maniacs, may identify as Republicans but that is only a label.

Dude, the wealth he would be spreading would be mine. He never said he would. But I could show you a thread full of wealth spreading right wing ideology.

I'm a centrist, if you can't tell the difference, you don't know what a liberal is.

Thanks for pronouncing the thread as failed.

what's your definition of failure?

Peace

Ziggy



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 11:52 PM
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Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Originally posted by ziggystrange
Specifically, it's about deception, delusion, lies, revisionism, and hypocrisy

Ah! The 2008 Democrat Campaign Platform! I love it!

Seriously, though, this Vast Right Wing Conspiracy bullshît doesn't wash any better today than when Hitlary Klinton first tried to float it back in the 90s.

And, really seriously, Republicans (I suppose you mean Conservatives) don't have to do a thing between now and November. As long as they stand back and disassociate themselves from the Democrat socialization agenda, the Democrats will destroy themselves, if they haven't done so already.

The deal is done, the bets are in.

— Doc Velocity


Hi Doc,

Thanks for wobbling in. Right wing conspiracy? no just a lot of idiots.

Thanks for the predictions. You're a funny guy.

Why shouldn't they, the Republicans just did it.

Are you giving point spreads?

Stick around this could get funny.

Thanks

Ziggy



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 11:57 PM
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Originally posted by Redwookieaz
Left wing, right wing. Democrat and Republican. They are all terms used to divide people from being Americans! The politicians in both parties are as equally corrupt and none of them represent the American citizens. Wake up! Before it's too late.


Hi thanks for posting.

Did you read the OP or just the title?
Politicians suck. I agree.

This thread is about regular people liars, and revisionists that were wound up by a-hole politicians.

Ziggy



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 12:07 AM
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reply to post by ziggystrange
 


See I still disagree. The Dems. protected the next generation of politicians...Lawyers!!
No tort reform? Why not limit the windfall lawyers receive for malpractice suits? I hear a lot of people saying that the insurance lobbies or big pharm. made a lot of noise against the health bill. The real winners were the politicians and their spawn.[I refer to lawyers] Forcing this health bill down our throats, without changing anything meaningful will cause more economic problems. Lawyers will still earn obscene amounts of money from someone else's woe and politicians will get to put more people of their choosing to work in a newly created network of medical overseers. We all know what political appointees are right?
Lying is common to humans, I worry more about the ones who claim to have my best interest at heart and are in a position to screw up my life and those I care about.

[edit on 8-1-2010 by hangedman13]



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 12:13 AM
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reply to post by ownbestenemy
 


Ownbestenemy,

You know I'm not going to try to zing you. I agree with a lot of what you say.
I'm too burnt to read your post now, because I know you're not a wacko, and I want to pay attention.

I'll u2u you the Nixon story, I was a little kid, but I remember it all.

I don't think you're the exception, or my enemy. I don't get that from you.

I still want to respond to your formal post from the other thread, in formalist language

My problem is with extreme ideology that presents itself as benevolent, and lies proffered as proof. False accusations of treason, forced indoctrination, segregation presented as separate but happy. To me these things are the ultimate division.

Maybe some not so extreme right wing people will show up, and put up a good front.

So far the rabble has not shown up, maybe they won't.

No harm in discussing it.

I sincerely hope everything works out. I think you are one of the good guys, and you should not catch flack for how you got to where you are.

Peace

Ziggy



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 01:40 AM
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Originally posted by hangedman13
reply to post by ziggystrange
 


See I still disagree. The Dems. protected the next generation of politicians...Lawyers!!
No tort reform? Why not limit the windfall lawyers receive for malpractice suits? I hear a lot of people saying that the insurance lobbies or big pharm. made a lot of noise against the health bill. The real winners were the politicians and their spawn.[I refer to lawyers] Forcing this health bill down our throats, without changing anything meaningful will cause more economic problems. Lawyers will still earn obscene amounts of money from someone else's woe and politicians will get to put more people of their choosing to work in a newly created network of medical overseers. We all know what political appointees are right?
Lying is common to humans, I worry more about the ones who claim to have my best interest at heart and are in a position to screw up my life and those I care about.

[edit on 8-1-2010 by hangedman13]


I agree with almost your entire post. So I'll just go to where we differ.

The lobbyists successfully worked both sides on the health care deal. I have more faith than you do that it will be better than it is now.

I'm all for tort reform. I think lawyers getting as much as 40% of settlements is obscene. I also don't trust them they're slippery, and dishonest. But I would not say they could not be in Government.

The appointed Health Care people, are going to be better than the ones overseeing things now. The real loss is they could have saved money, yours, and mine with a real public option.

If you have no insurance, meaning your company does not cover you.
A family of 3, has to pay 1600 a month hard cash for private insurance. Not remotely near as good as that of a GOV employee. that's over 20k not including deductibles and cost of medicines.

Why is that? It's because somebody screwed up my world.
It was a lot of people, same ones that screwed your world.

When people with no insurance go to the E.R. you and I pay for it.

If there was a public option, it would level the field, and reign in the Pharms, insurance, and the Doctors. But the Conservatives would not have it, the fear mongering worked. They told old people their Medicare was going to be taken away. That there would be death panels. That's all lies.

Everybody dutifully freaked out, including the Democrats, the pressure put on the Senate, and Congress, by lobbyists and all the people freaking out from the rhetoric forced them to have to pork up the bill to be able to take the heat back home for election time. It's wrong, I agree with you.
I have no love for Politicians, they all lie, right, left, middle.

But we have to have them. We have to fix them, replace them, whatever you want to call it. But do you want better or worse people in their place.

I want better, but I want it done right, by voting. If we can't find any good ones, then we deserve them.

I haven't seen anything in the Tea Party, of the Libertarian Party, forget Republicans, that makes me feel like, "Now there goes one Guy I can trust" nobody.

I like Ron Paul. I think he's as close as it gets to real, but I really believe he would get us all killed. He has good intentions, but it would not work.

I actually trust Obama more because he's a real centrist. He's no liberal. He's a little stiff, but he's smart, and tough. We like John Wayne types for Presidents. We tried that, Ron Reagan.

Our entire economy problem was served up by Reagan and the Conservative movement. It failed miserably, you can't redistribute wealth up, in hopes that it's going to rain down. That's my theory. I made money too back then, but it was too much for too little.

We don't need a cheerleader, we need a stoic guy, but we have to let him do his job, whoever he is.

Bush was just the straw that broke the camels back.

The same people that are going to benefit from the Democrat policies, are the ones fighting them. Because they have been lied to.

We agree on that much, I agree they all lie, but some lies are worse than others.

Sorry for the off topic rant.

Ziggy



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 01:47 AM
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Originally posted by Magnum007
I think maybe what your country needs to prevent the bloodbath and to advert idiocracy, is a peaceful, yet extremely powerful, a great speaker, a philosophical thinker; basically a mix between MLK and Gandhi... Someone who can speak the words and live by them.

I don't want to seem to be lecturing a boomer! You have lived much more than I have!



Magnum


No worries,

You're not. I agree that would be a great thing.

Magnum - Here's my .02$ and, once again, please correct me if I am wrong. IMO, unfortunately, there is a very strong correlation between the will for peaceful change by some groups and the will for violent repression by other groups. We can only hope that the right people win, and that those who chose to use violence either use it properly and for the right reasons, or don't use it at all.

Ziggy - Nothing to correct, and that is precisely why I'm here putting my 2 cents in for the side I think is closest to the ideal.

Magnum - Peace my friend

Peace

Ziggy



posted on Jan, 8 2010 @ 04:27 AM
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reply to post by ziggystrange
 


No I read the OP, my only point was to reinforce the fact that any way you wanna divide people, works for the TPTB. And that the right, is as responsible as the left. They have in many ways stolen the thunder of what should be a position held by every American and made it their own thus alienating those who are "democrats". The anti-elitist, world wide movement of people towards enlightenment and understanding of what TPTB want is and should be bigger than all these divisive titles and groups. They are stealing the thunder and alienating certain groups, which is again playing right into the elites' hands.



posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 05:50 AM
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Originally posted by Redwookieaz
reply to post by ziggystrange
 


No I read the OP, my only point was to reinforce the fact that any way you wanna divide people, works for the TPTB. And that the right, is as responsible as the left. They have in many ways stolen the thunder of what should be a position held by every American and made it their own thus alienating those who are "democrats". The anti-elitist, world wide movement of people towards enlightenment and understanding of what TPTB want is and should be bigger than all these divisive titles and groups. They are stealing the thunder and alienating certain groups, which is again playing right into the elites' hands.


TPTB is the most overused term here. A catchall to rationalize any disagreement. I get what you are saying.

This thread is specific, not narrow. I'ts relevant and timely.
Divided is here. The problem is how to fix it.

Ziggy Strange



posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 09:17 AM
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reply to post by ziggystrange
 


As sick and tired as I am of this maddening right/left paradigm, I am not one willing to admit that is a fabrication foisted upon the helpless populace by some mysterious and exalted "powers that be". There is no doubt a right wing in the political playing field and a left wing, although most people tend to hover around the center either leaning left on some issues, and leaning right on others, or vice versa.

What is astounding about this thread is the pure unadulterated disingenuous nature of its propaganda. Indeed, to those who have all ready posted and pointed out the mendacity of politics can be found on both sides of the spectrum, the O.P. will reply with undaunted denials to any deceit or outright lies or revisionist history perpetuated by the left, which is perhaps the most annoying and vomit inducing lie of them all.

This thread is nothing more than a propaganda piece apparently expecting to indoctrinate its readers into believing that only right wing ideologues engage in mendacious language, while the left wing is above such nonsense. What's worse is the examples the O.P. uses to supposedly expose the right wing as being the sole perpetuation's of deceit are at best half truths and that is only assuming that there are large enough numbers of liars on the right perpetuating the lies the O.P. claims they are.

The O.P. claims that the right blames the left for terrorism, when it is well documented that the right has consistently blamed a right wing fundamentalist group known as Al Queada for the terrorism so prominent in the new today. Conversely, the left has endeavored to deflect this blame on "homegrown terrorists" often pointing to anomalies such as Timothy McVeigh to justify this spurious blame game. It is the left who continually attempts to frame U.S. well regulated militias as terrorists while downplaying the role of Islamic fundamentalism as being a trouble source. Unless, of course, the left wants to discredit ideology of the right, then they will point to the similarities of ideology to Islamic fundamentalism. It is this sort of prevarication, not belonging to the left alone, but surely a characteristic of left wing politics.

The O.P. attempts to blame the right for warmongering ignoring that the vast majority of wars fought overseas were fought under left wing administrations. World War I was fought while Woodrow Wilson was President. World War II was fought while Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry S. Truman were presidents. The Korean conflict? Harry Truman's war. The Vietnam conflict? It was the revered and honored John F. Kennedy who brought us that and escalated by the architect of the "great social society" Lyndon B. Johnson, but in typical revisionist history mode, the left continues to declare that conflict Richard Nixon's war, even though it was Nixon who pulled the U.S. out of that war.

While were at it, let's just look at how they speak of some of their icons. While I have long admired John F. Kennedy and don't believe him to be a left wing ideologue, the left wing loves to refer to his Presidency as Camelot! While they claim to hold democratic principles, they hail the Presidency as some sort of American Monarchy, going as far as to refer to Kennedy's son John John as America's Prince.

The left adored Bill Clinton and willfully ignored the more disturbing qualities of this megalomaniac micro-manager viewing him as a brilliant strategist and deeply compassionate man. However, whether the left likes it or not, this hugely successful President squandered his own political capital on sexual dalliances right there in the white house! Further, when the man lied under oath about these dalliances, the left dismissed these lies as unimportant and not worthy of conviction for perjury even though at the time Clinton perjured himself, there were 117 people in a federal prison for committing perjury for lying about sex under oath.

Even worse, and typical of the revisionism the left is so fond of, they actually deny that Clinton was impeached, apparently counting on the fact that his censure instead of removal will be viewed as not being impeached. Constantly the left attempts to present Constitutional matters in a deceptive manner, often times blatantly lying about what the Constitution actually says, somehow believing that people are too stupid to read that document for themselves.

Also typical of the left is the shameful and self deceptive way they attempt to frame the right as being racist, just as the O.P. does in his opening post. Never mind the fact that the left has consistently shown their own racist proclivities, constantly presenting minority races in the U.S. as helpless and unable to provide for themselves, and when the right dares to suggest that these minorities can and want to provide for themselves, the left screams La-la-la-la-la-racist-la-la-la-racist pig-la-la-la-I can't hear you you racist pig-la-la-la, with their fingers in their ears and their face blue from la-la-la-ing so loudly.

The left would have you believe they love the poor and to prove it they will implement as many policies as they can to keep making more people poor, because profit is a sin and capitalism is the root of all evil. The left will scream that it is the right who wants to take away all freedoms, all the while advocating more gun laws and restrictions, doing all they can to silence dissent, claiming that it is the right who wants to remove "our way of life" which is nothing more than forced socialism which by its own nature must necessarily sacrifice personal freedom in the name of some invented equality.

As for equality under the law, the left is every bit as guilty of cronyism, special privileges and as indicated earlier completely in love with titles of nobility expressly forbidden by the Constitution they love to take such a liberal view of. The left will openly encourage voter fraud and has consistently and it has been well documented that they will register non citizens to vote going as far as to register undocumented immigrants and then when the opposition attempts to reign in this unethical behavior how do they react? Just read the O.P.'s opening post, they will scream xenophobia and isolationism and segregation as if these buzz words alone were enough to sway people into believing their intent is pure and their actions saintly.

So willing to lie and deceive is the O.P. that he makes the left wing seem right of center, for surely the left wing is not nearly as bad in engaging in shenanigans as this zealous propagandist is. Just look at some of the nonsense this poster claims:

"Stop Immigration, only allow it for employment. Nationalize the banks, ratify the original 13th amendment, and make gun ownership compulsory.

Impose new voting requirements, and, propagandize compulsory political education. Grant powers to ban any religion the ruling party desires.

States to impose embargoes on other states, un corporation of corporations, confiscation of publicly owned assets, (stocks), "canceling" the National debt."


What a remarkable mishmash of wild accusations all lumped together to characterize the right pretending that some of these charges aren't just as characteristic of the left, and some I don't even know what side of the political spectrum they come from, but it is far from an honest evaluation of the right, even if this zealot ranting this is giving his "honest opinion".

What is typical of this lumping of disingenuous charges, and to be sure a distinct blaming of the right, is that it is a characteristic of the left to lump together multitudes of charges in hopes that if they list enough, no matter how incorrect and unfounded the charges may be, they will so overwhelm the reader they will not even bother to address each charge individually.

[edit on 18-1-2010 by Jean Paul Zodeaux]



posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 09:17 AM
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reply to post by ziggystrange
 


Continuing...

Let us, however, address these charges individually and with some degree of honesty and clarity. First this charge that the right wants to stop immigration only allowing it for purposes of employment. Presumably he is only referring to those he labels "right wing" who are posting in threads in ATS and not the right wing politicians of the American Experiment. For surely this impassioned zealot is fully aware that such right wing politicians as George W. Bush actually campaigned and pushed for amnesty for undocumented immigrants.

There have certainly been posters in certain threads in this site who have screamed for a halting of immigration, but so what? Is this wrong? Would the zealot strange deny that every nation has a right to protect its borders and to control the flow of immigration? Is this somehow criminal or evil? For clarification sake, I am not one who advocates the halting of immigration, and to take it further I loathe that people, including the zealot strange are so comfortable in referring to these immigrants who have come here without permission as "illegal". I fail to see how a person can be either legal or illegal, but that is neither here nor there in terms of this post, for I am neither left nor right, but am compelled to call out the blatant lies this O.P. has told in this undeniable effort to keep fanning the flames of divisiveness in this left/right paradigm.

Next he charges that those who call for nationalize banks are "right wingers", presumably because he, an admitted leftist, opposes such an idea, and for the record, I most certainly oppose this idea, but that matters not for surely the zealot strange has made up his mind about my politics and will undoubtedly label me a "right winger". However, it was Alexander Hamilton, hardly an icon of right wing politics, who was the architect of national banks in the U.S., and he was the driving force behind the First Bank of the United States which was a national bank. Then there was the Second Bank of the United States, which was finally destroyed by the politics of Andrew Jackson, much closer to right wing politics than Hamilton, and the Federal Reserve that stands today is a national banking system.

Yet, somehow the O.P. seems to think this an accusation against right wingers that reveal their insidious nature and proclivity towards lying. Never mind that the U.S. currently operates under a national banking system, the O.P. isn't lying, just, most likely ignorant.

The O.P. then hurls the charge that "right wingers" want the original 13th Amendment ratified, as if this is some sort of evidence to evil intent. I personally know nothing at all about an original 13th Amendment as opposed to the one that stands ratified today, and that ratification process was slow to come due to a civil war were several states had seceded from the Union, not allowing full ratification until after that war was settled. I personally see no problem at all with the wording of this Amendment, (and it should be noted that while the O.P. is fond of capitalizing National he is not so inclined to capitalize Amendment as it should be.), but there is apparently some controversy as to this Amendment versus an "original" one that existed prior. Given this is a conspiracy site, it seems only fitting and proper that people would post claims of this in this site.

Next the O.P. rants against those posters who have advocated making gun ownership compulsory labeling these people as "right wingers" and perhaps rightfully so. However, it is the left who has tirelessly endeavored to eliminate gun ownership in the U.S. that makes this particular accusation just one more instance of disingenuous rhetoric. It seems to me that this extreme advocacy of compulsory gun ownership only comes as an emotional reaction to the undeniable attempts by the left to eradicate gun ownership for the people, while not even dare to consider eliminating gun possession for law enforcement officials.

Then this zealot strange declares those who advocate new voting requirements as being right wing deceiver's, why anyone who advocates voting requirements, whether they be left or right, should be considered to be deceivers or liars is not made clear by the O.P., indeed, why any of the ideas he rails against should be considered as deception is not made clear, but what should be made clear is that it is a distinct characteristic of the left to hold up voting as a right of all people and it being the lynch pin of freedom, and that there is a deception.

Voting is not a right it is a government granted privilege demonstrable in the fact that voting is all ready regulated and that an Amendment needed to be written to lower the age requirement from 21 years of age down to 18, that an Amendment needed to be written to allow women to vote, and that the unfortunate and arrogant 14th Amendment was written presumably to allow black people to vote. Voting is a method and mechanism of a representative democracy, and even a mechanism in this Constitutional republic we call The United States. It is not, however, the foundation of freedom the left would have people believe it is, individual rights and laws preventing others from abrogating and derogating those rights is the lynch pin of freedom.

Next the O.P. blames the right for being guilty of propagandizing compulsory political education, apparently unaware of the fact that compulsory political education all ready exists and is being taught in a large part by left wing advocates who feel obligated to push forth an agenda. Personally, I am opposed to any government funded compulsory education at all, and feel this is the best way to avoid either left wing or right wing propaganda machines indoctrinating the public. Of course, that would probably strike the O.P. as just more right wing politics.

As to this assertion that the right wing is advocating a grant of powers to ban certain religions, I know not which threads he has read this idea from, but I tend to avoid the overtly religious threads or anti-religious threads all together, but surely this zealot strange would not lump all anti-religious zealots in the category of right wing, and understands the left wing has their own particular prejudices against certain religions as well...one would think.

Then the O.P. rants against those who advocate states embargoing other states and again I know nothing of this, and know not why this advocacy would be labeled right wing, but it should be clear at this point that the O.P. himself is not to clear on what constitutes right wing ideology. He then rants against the revoking of corporate charters which is very revealing for it is a distinct characteristic of the left to point towards corporations as examples of all that is wrong with capitalism.

I am a strong advocate of revoking corporate charters from those corporations that have been endlessly guilty of malfeasance, but again the O.P. makes no argument as to why "un corporation of corporations" as he puts it, would be a bad thing. Un-incorporating a corporation, or more correctly revoking the charter granted to a corporation by legislation of a state is a right of the government and the U.S. being a government of the people by the people and for the people, it is the right of any person to petition for a revocation of corporate charter for any corporation that has willfully and recklessly disobeyed the law. Would the O.P. offer up the revocation of corporate charters as a shocking and deceptive method of politics and instead hail lawlessness as the preferred method?

The last two charges the zealot strange levels against right wingers is the advocacy of confiscating publicly owned assets in the form of stocks and "canceling" the National debt...

...continued...



posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 09:18 AM
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reply to post by ziggystrange
 


Continuing...

It is telling that the zealot who created this thread would gather and collect the ideology of zealots he opposes and lump them all together in this thread to attack right wing ideology. Never bothering to make clear why he opposes the ideas he hopes to shock the reader with as being unsound and reactionary ideas, and to be sure, some of them are, he instead just throws the ideas out there and expects all to agree with him. Indeed, when posters who did not necessarily agree with him but endeavored to point out that his complaint of lies and deception was equally balanced between both left and right, what does he do? He lies and say's "that's not true!" La-la-la-la-la-la-la-la I can't hear you la-la-la-la-la-la...how does he manage to type with both fingers planted so firmly in his ears?

The O.P. goes on to imply that downplaying and eventually exiting from the U.N. would be a bad idea, as if most Americans love the U.N. and crave this new world order. He rants and rants and rants without ever bothering to explain why he views these charges he calls right wing agenda as being bad, and to be sure, some of the ideas he does rant against, I think are bad ideas, but that they are all right wing ideas is dubious at best, and I remain skeptical and since the O.P. feels no need to offer any reasoned argument against these ideas or why he believes them to be right wing ideas not at all belonging to left wing ideology, the reader is left with nothing but rant, rant, rant, and not very compelling rants at that.

On and on and on he goes spouting off ideas without defending his position that if I were to address each and every idea he lists, it would take me at least three more posts to do so and I am all ready in my third post now! I have taken the time to address some of the points he has listed to illustrate those I agree with and those I disagree with and to declare I am neither left nor right but endeavor to apply critical thinking to real world problems in an effort to find the best way to solve these problems. Does the zealot strange want to solve problems? Perhaps, but apparently his solution is to discredit the right through fallacious ranting and by default declare the left wing ideology to be that solution.

He accuses the right of making up history ignoring and denying that the left will do the same thing and he himself offering no evidence of historical knowledge what so ever. He finally asks the reader what you think and asks if it is only the internet that buys into right wing ideology, never allowing for any reality that supposes there is plenty of left wing ideology not just in this site, but all over the internet, and asks if large groups of people outside of internet users buys into what he calls crap, as if his thread was something of a sweeter smelling manure.

You want divisiveness and argument, Mr. Strange? Fine, but why not let's take the tone down a notch and engage in reasoned debate and apply a certain amount of civility to that debate? If you want to claim the mantle of intellectualism then act intellectually and less emotionally. If you want us to accept you as erudite and well versed in critical thinking then earn that respect and offer us sound reason and at least some semblance of syllogistic logic. Is that too much to ask?



posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 07:20 PM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


Tale of the Zealot and the ?

J - As sick and tired as I am of this maddening right/left paradigm, I am not one willing to admit that is a fabrication foisted upon the helpless populace by some mysterious and exalted "powers that be". There is no doubt a right wing in the political playing field and a left wing, although most people tend to hover around the center either leaning left on some issues, and leaning right on others, or vice versa.

Z - Surprising given your current position as intellectual consultant in a thread that advocates violent revolt, but you are soooo intelligent that you think by saying you don't advocate violence, it will indemnify you and your fellow whiny pseudo revolutionaries from being prosecuted for your revolution of the ignorant misguided few. Ever look up the definition of a conspiracy? It's sad that the best of you, is JPZ, congratulations, you are now the genius, in an community of simpletons.

J - What is astounding about this thread is the pure unadulterated disingenuous nature of its propaganda. Indeed, to those who have all ready posted and pointed out the mendacity of politics can be found on both sides of the spectrum, the O.P. will reply with undaunted denials to any deceit or outright lies or revisionist history perpetuated by the left, which is perhaps the most annoying and vomit inducing lie of them all.

Z - The so called disingenuous propaganda was written by some of the same geniuses you are currently plotting the (according to you hypothetical) violent overthrow of the government with. You are the revisionist, and the liar, unless it's pure delusion on your part.

J - This thread is nothing more than a propaganda piece apparently expecting to indoctrinate its readers into believing that only right wing ideologues engage in mendacious language, while the left wing is above such nonsense. What's worse is the examples the O.P. uses to supposedly expose the right wing as being the sole perpetuation's of deceit are at best half truths and that is only assuming that there are large enough numbers of liars on the right perpetuating the lies the O.P. claims they are.

Z - No Jean Paul it's just me putting together the gibberish your buddies write and posting it for people to see. You are the indoctrinator, a glance at your recent threads indicts you without me, or anyone else exposing your sweet poison, and condescending intellectually veiled radicalized advise.
Do you understand that some less than intelligent person is going to wind up in jail, or worse due to your little social experiment?

J - The O.P. claims that the right blames the left for terrorism, when it is well documented that the right has consistently blamed a right wing fundamentalist group known as Al Queada for the terrorism so prominent in the new today.

Z - JP read your own statement. It's nonsense, I say the right will blame the left for the things "they" do. I can prove it in this context and you were ill advised to take up this little foray to avenge your knuckle dragging Patriot puppet toys.

J - Conversely, the left has endeavored to deflect this blame on "homegrown terrorists" often pointing to anomalies such as Timothy McVeigh to justify this spurious blame game. It is the left who continually attempts to frame U.S. well regulated militias as terrorists while downplaying the role of Islamic fundamentalism as being a trouble source. Unless, of course, the left wants to discredit ideology of the right, then they will point to the similarities of ideology to Islamic fundamentalism. It is this sort of prevarication, not belonging to the left alone, but surely a characteristic of left wing politics.

Z - That's a flat out lie, I never mentioned McVeigh, or Islamic terrorists. I do maintain that the your ideology, and that of your group of fans is a mish mash of fragments of failed social experiments, and most if not all of them are diametrically opposed to Liberty. A term you don't understand. If you do then you are a traitor, and a propagandist with a destructive agenda.

J - The O.P. attempts to blame the right for warmongering ignoring that the vast majority of wars fought overseas were fought under left wing administrations. World War I was fought while Woodrow Wilson was President. World War II was fought while Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry S. Truman were presidents. The Korean conflict? Harry Truman's war. The Vietnam conflict? It was the revered and honored John F. Kennedy who brought us that and escalated by the architect of the "great social society" Lyndon B. Johnson, but in typical revisionist history mode, the left continues to declare that conflict Richard Nixon's war, even though it was Nixon who pulled the U.S. out of that war.

Z - Perfect example of bold faced revisionism, and lies. Nixon was forced to pull out, and he was a criminal. The World wars were were forced upon us by Germany and it's allies. I applaud the U.S. and the veterans of those wars. Reagan (right wing) the hero of so called conservatives, and Republicans created and fostered cowboy diplomacy. Reagan, Bush and his minime are the primary fear mongers of the last 30 years. Iraq? Do you have the gall to deny the right wing profit driven nature of this war?

J - While were at it, let's just look at how they speak of some of their icons. While I have long admired John F. Kennedy and don't believe him to be a left wing ideologue, the left wing loves to refer to his Presidency as Camelot! While they claim to hold democratic principles, they hail the Presidency as some sort of American Monarchy, going as far as to refer to Kennedy's son John John as America's Prince.

Z - Again you lie. I never mentioned Kennedy, or his kid at ATS. But why say anything relevant when your task is to do exactly what this thread says you do? You are no centrist pal, you are the prince of lies. I thought you were arguing the OP, apparently it's a platform for you to pontificate at will, with no regard for reality or reason. You are a great example of the poison that seeks to finish off America. You belong in prison.

Continued


[edit on 18-1-2010 by ziggystrange]



posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 07:20 PM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


J - The left adored Bill Clinton and willfully ignored the more disturbing qualities of this megalomaniac micro-manager viewing him as a brilliant strategist and deeply compassionate man.

Z - He is a brilliant strategist, and left the US with a surplus, a great President. The management style infuriates you because it has teeth, something Democrats sorely need.

J - However, whether the left likes it or not, this hugely successful President squandered his own political capital on sexual dalliances right there in the white house! Further, when the man lied under oath about these dalliances, the left dismissed these lies as unimportant and not worthy of conviction for perjury even though at the time Clinton perjured himself, there were 117 people in a federal prison for committing perjury for lying about sex under oath.

Z - Right, where does that fit into your little utopia in terms of sexual dalliances. Will you legislate morality as well in your new America? Sure Clinton was wrong to do it. It led to an impeachable offense, but the facts show us it was a failed impeachment. Was he forced to step down? What happened JP is this another left wing conspiracy?

J - Even worse, and typical of the revisionism the left is so fond of, they actually deny that Clinton was impeached, apparently counting on the fact that his censure instead of removal will be viewed as not being impeached. Constantly the left attempts to present Constitutional matters in a deceptive manner, often times blatantly lying about what the Constitution actually says, somehow believing that people are too stupid to read that document for themselves.

Z- No, you are stupid for making false claims. Clinton Impeachment from Wikipedia Nobody I know of denies it. But you say people do. How about a source? JP

J - Also typical of the left is the shameful and self deceptive way they attempt to frame the right as being racist, just as the O.P. does in his opening post. Never mind the fact that the left has consistently shown their own racist proclivities, constantly presenting minority races in the U.S. as helpless and unable to provide for themselves, and when the right dares to suggest that these minorities can and want to provide for themselves, the left screams La-la-la-la-la-racist-la-la-la-racist pig-la-la-la-I can't hear you you racist pig-la-la-la, with their fingers in their ears and their face blue from la-la-la-ing so loudly.

Z - Sound of violins playing. JP how low will you sink into your own scatology? Bigotry, and Racism pervade the right. Deny it all you want. I said it, I maintain it, and everyone with a brain knows it. Sure there are Democrats that fit both labels, but Republicans, and Right wingers have made it a connective tissue in their base and you know it. I know Republicans that left the party because of it. It's the truth.

J - The left would have you believe they love the poor and to prove it they will implement as many policies as they can to keep making more people poor, because profit is a sin and capitalism is the root of all evil.

Z - Democrats/Liberals/leftists have far more social conscience than the Right. Capitalism, and profits are not wrong, subjugation and abuse of the masses for profit is not a "sin" it's a crime, and an abrogation of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. The same ones you seek to deconstruct though deceit, and violent revolt. The shoe fits pal.

J - The left will scream that it is the right who wants to take away all freedoms, all the while advocating more gun laws and restrictions, doing all they can to silence dissent, claiming that it is the right who wants to remove "our way of life" which is nothing more than forced socialism which by its own nature must necessarily sacrifice personal freedom in the name of some invented equality.

Z - You do want to take liberty from the people. Nobody wants to take away your guns. You have chosen to interpret "prudence" as unconstitutional good luck. You use that as a talking point to get support from the paranoid minority, that you panic through your fear mongering. Where are the color coded terror alerts? how come not one single color coded terror alert ever accomplished anything but to scare people into submission and acceptance of Bush's criminal war profiteering, and human rights violations? To call you a hypocrite would be a compliment.

J - As for equality under the law, the left is every bit as guilty of cronyism, special privileges and as indicated earlier completely in love with titles of nobility expressly forbidden by the Constitution they love to take such a liberal view of.

Z - You mean titles like, Judge, Attorney? Show me the nobility titles we use JP.

J - The left will openly encourage voter fraud and has consistently and it has been well documented that they will register non citizens to vote going as far as to register undocumented immigrants and then when the opposition attempts to reign in this unethical behavior how do they react? Just read the O.P.'s opening post, they will scream xenophobia and isolationism and segregation as if these buzz words alone were enough to sway people into believing their intent is pure and their actions saintly.

Z - There you go again. You are xenophobes, isolationists, and segregationists. It has nothing to do with voting fraud. That claim is surely based on the ACORN BS you all tried to pull off during the last election. Another brain fart, that blew up in your faces. Aliens? You have aliens square in your targets, legal and otherwise. Again written by your erudite and prolific co conspirators. I will serve it up for you after I answer your pityful missive.

continued



posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 07:21 PM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 

J - So willing to lie and deceive is the O.P. that he makes the left wing seem right of center, for surely the left wing is not nearly as bad in engaging in shenanigans as this zealous propagandist is. Just look at some of the nonsense this poster claims:

"Stop Immigration, only allow it for employment. Nationalize the banks, ratify the original 13th amendment, and make gun ownership compulsory.

Impose new voting requirements, and, propagandize compulsory political education. Grant powers to ban any religion the ruling party desires.

States to impose embargoes on other states, un corporation of corporations, confiscation of publicly owned assets, (stocks), "canceling" the National debt."

What a remarkable mishmash of wild accusations all lumped together to characterize the right pretending that some of these charges aren't just as characteristic of the left, and some I don't even know what side of the political spectrum they come from, but it is far from an honest evaluation of the right, even if this zealot ranting this is giving his "honest opinion".

Z - Hard to believe anyone would write this. But to your detriment and that of your cohorts, they were all copied from their threads, and rantings on my threads. All of which I will post as an index to this thread after I respond to your tirade of lies.

J - What is typical of this lumping of disingenuous charges, and to be sure a distinct blaming of the right, is that it is a characteristic of the left to lump together multitudes of charges in hopes that if they list enough, no matter how incorrect and unfounded the charges may be, they will so overwhelm the reader they will not even bother to address each charge individually.

Z - No it's called gathering evidence to prove your point. Unlike what you do which is confabulate, lie, and obfuscate. You bet I'm going to list every idiocy I find in my threads, and some you post in to expose your twisted, deceitful and oppressive ideology.

J - Let us, however, address these charges individually and with some degree of honesty and clarity.

Z - Sure JP, let's take them point for point. The more you write the better. You do want to stop it though.

J - First this charge that the right wants to stop immigration only allowing it for purposes of employment. Presumably he is only referring to those he labels "right wing" who are posting in threads in ATS and not the right wing politicians of the American Experiment.

Z - I'm specifically referring to people like you, and your little gang at ATS. Quite relevant when you post at ATS. But relevance is not your friend is it, JP.


J - For surely this impassioned zealot is fully aware that such right wing politicians as George W. Bush actually campaigned and pushed for amnesty for undocumented immigrants.

Z - Bush did do that, no argument. But we are discussing what you et al are doing, not what Bush campaigned for.

J - There have certainly been posters in certain threads in this site who have screamed for a halting of immigration, but so what? Is this wrong? Would the zealot strange deny that every nation has a right to protect its borders and to control the flow of immigration? Is this somehow criminal or evil? For clarification sake, I am not one who advocates the halting of immigration, and to take it further I loathe that people, including the zealot strange are so comfortable in referring to these immigrants who have come here without permission as "illegal". I fail to see how a person can be either legal or illegal, but that is neither here nor there in terms of this post, for I am neither left nor right, but am compelled to call out the blatant lies this O.P. has told in this undeniable effort to keep fanning the flames of divisiveness in this left/right paradigm.

Z- Oh! Tthe horror! The calumny I perpetrate by stating the obvious. In the context it is discussed and given the causation mechanism that drives it, it is immoral, and reprehensible what you profess. You are claiming you have no knowledge of the threads and posters that specifically triggered this thread. You truly have no idea how transparent you are. A good thing as it portends how effective your "Fight Club" Jingo fantasy revolution will be.

J - Next he charges that those who call for nationalize banks are "right wingers", presumably because he, an admitted leftist, opposes such an idea, and for the record, I most certainly oppose this idea, but that matters not for surely the zealot strange has made up his mind about my politics and will undoubtedly label me a "right winger". However, it was Alexander Hamilton, hardly an icon of right wing politics, who was the architect of national banks in the U.S., and he was the driving force behind the First Bank of the United States which was a national bank. Then there was the Second Bank of the United States, which was finally destroyed by the politics of Andrew Jackson, much closer to right wing politics than Hamilton, and the Federal Reserve that stands today is a national banking system.

Z - Woe is me, you exclaim. If you oppose the idea, why are you here falsely accusing me of inventing it, or misusing it? You know full well what I say is true. Naming Hamilton does nothing but attempt to obfuscate the issue. The idiocy of this idea, is illustrated in a conversation on one of these threads I will index for you after I ram the rest of your lies down your throat.

J - Yet, somehow the O.P. seems to think this an accusation against right wingers that reveal their insidious nature and proclivity towards lying. Never mind that the U.S. currently operates under a national banking system, the O.P. isn't lying, just, most likely ignorant.

Z - Typical of your ilk. You don't do your homework. Banking and Economics is not the subject you should pick to mount a BS argument with me. Again I have already answered this idiotic accusation in a thread just a couple of days ago. You are the ignoramus JP, you talk of things you don't understand, and speak as if you do it for a living. Just another worthless mendacious tactic prevalent among the Neo Patriots.

Continued

[edit on 19-1-2010 by ziggystrange]



posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 07:21 PM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 

J - The O.P. then hurls the charge that "right wingers" want the original 13th Amendment ratified, as if this is some sort of evidence to evil intent. I personally know nothing at all about an original 13th Amendment as opposed to the one that stands ratified today, and that ratification process was slow to come due to a civil war were several states had seceded from the Union, not allowing full ratification until after that war was settled. I personally see no problem at all with the wording of this Amendment, (and it should be noted that while the O.P. is fond of capitalizing National he is not so inclined to capitalize Amendment as it should be.), but there is apparently some controversy as to this Amendment versus an "original" one that existed prior. Given this is a conspiracy site, it seems only fitting and proper that people would post claims of this in this site.

Z - See my previous statement about you talking up what you don't understand. The 13th Amendment that you are unaware of, goes to the stupidity you were spouting about noble titles. More proof you are less than studied in you own twisted ideology. I'm not a writer, and the grammar and spelling attack is just as hypocritical as the rest of your blabber. Your new best buddy on the revolt thread can't think let alone spell, or use English.


J - Next the O.P. rants against those posters who have advocated making gun ownership compulsory labeling these people as "right wingers" and perhaps rightfully so.

Z - Damn right I call you on this.

J - However, it is the left who has tirelessly endeavored to eliminate gun ownership in the U.S. that makes this particular accusation just one more instance of disingenuous rhetoric. It seems to me that this extreme advocacy of compulsory gun ownership only comes as an emotional reaction to the undeniable attempts by the left to eradicate gun ownership for the people, while not even dare to consider eliminating gun possession for law enforcement officials.

Z - The right to bear arms as intended, did not mean to have citizens owning/bearing what would have been considered weapons of mass destruction in 1776. You bet I don't want yahoos with assault rifles and machine pistols driving around in pick up trucks drunk, and or tweaked into maniacs. Take your guns, never. Stop you from mass murder, and idiopathic acts, and acts of terror, absolutely I'm for limiting the ability of felons. and mentally impaired people to get their hands on combat weapons.

J - Then this zealot strange declares those who advocate new voting requirements as being right wing deceiver's, why anyone who advocates voting requirements, whether they be left or right, should be considered to be deceivers or liars is not made clear by the O.P., indeed, why any of the ideas he rails against should be considered as deception is not made clear, but what should be made clear is that it is a distinct characteristic of the left to hold up voting as a right of all people and it being the lynch pin of freedom, and that there is a deception.

Z - Your new voting requirements would seek to exclude votes against your ideology. Mandated extensive civics classes? What's wrong with the curriculum now? In a Democratic Republic, voting is how we decide things. When you intend to exclude, your agenda should be questioned. Your own new requirements would exclude your very base of screaming uneducated sheeple. What I rail against is your envisioned prison/fortress of a country.

J - Voting is not a right it is a government granted privilege demonstrable in the fact that voting is all ready regulated and that an Amendment needed to be written to lower the age requirement from 21 years of age down to 18, that an Amendment needed to be written to allow women to vote, and that the unfortunate and arrogant 14th Amendment was written presumably to allow black people to vote. Voting is a method and mechanism of a representative democracy, and even a mechanism in this Constitutional republic we call The United States. It is not, however, the foundation of freedom the left would have people believe it is, individual rights and laws preventing others from abrogating and derogating those rights is the lynch pin of freedom.

Z - You start to unravel here JP. Like anything else there are parameters. But let's talk about your characterization of the 14th Amendment. Why arrogant? Why unfortunate. Unfortunate for whom? Whites? Arrogant how? Because it gave Black peolple what they should have had to begin with? Like I said your own words betray you for the depth of your bigotry.

J - Next the O.P. blames the right for being guilty of propagandizing compulsory political education, apparently unaware of the fact that compulsory political education all ready exists and is being taught in a large part by left wing advocates who feel obligated to push forth an agenda.

Z - As I mentioned, before education is one thing, indoctrination another. Your brothers in arms want indoctrination.

J - Personally, I am opposed to any government funded compulsory education at all, and feel this is the best way to avoid either left wing or right wing propaganda machines indoctrinating the public. Of course, that would probably strike the O.P. as just more right wing politics.

Z - As usual the absolute solution. You are so afraid your children will learn the truth about you, that you would prefer them to be ignorant. Pop out your head, and look around ostrich man, the world is a technocracy. Education is the most important thing there is if we are to survive as a people.

J - As to this assertion that the right wing is advocating a grant of powers to ban certain religions, I know not which threads he has read this idea from, but I tend to avoid the overtly religious threads or anti-religious threads all together, but surely this zealot strange would not lump all anti-religious zealots in the category of right wing, and understands the left wing has their own particular prejudices against certain religions as well...one would think.

Z - I will gladly include it with the rest of my references. I believe religions are nothing but mutual admiration clubs, and a tool for radicalization but I would not ban a religion. Your State Rights fiefdoms would have all the tools to do this. It was posted. It might have helped to have read these threads JP. The thread that has this post is very near to you as you will see. I'm starting to feel a little sorry for you JP. You really screwed up this time. I'm almost certain your buddies are congratulating you for putting me in my place about now. They have no idea, I'm sitting here, methodically showing you to be exactly what you are, a devious, and mendacious extremist, with delusions of Founding Fatherhood.

J - Then the O.P. rants against those who advocate states embargoing other states and again I know nothing of this, and know not why this advocacy would be labeled right wing, but it should be clear at this point that the O.P. himself is not to clear on what constitutes right wing ideology. He then rants against the revoking of corporate charters which is very revealing for it is a distinct characteristic of the left to point towards corporations as examples of all that is wrong with capitalism.




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