Jesus AKA God

Hi Pthena

What makes you think the historical R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the so-called Galilean Nazir (Gk. 'Iesous') was a universalist-humanitarian who liked goyim, rather than an early 1st century Galilean Daviddic Pretender who had no use at all for Gentiles (whom the Dead Sea Scrolls and other 1st century BCE/CE writings refer to as 'idolatrous dogs' like that poor SyroPhoenecian lady who came crawling to him for help with her daughter 'who was afflicted with a bleeder-daemon' ?

Seems to me he gave the poor lady sort schrift:

'The Bar Enasha (aram. 'son of man') was sent ONLY (Gk. Eutheos) to the Elect of the Lost Sheep of the House of Yisro'el...and anyway since when is it right to take the children's bread out of their mouths and throw it away on the dogs under the table ?' (taken from the mangled greek of the 1st council approved 'canonical' Greek gospel aka 'Matthew' whoever he was...see chapter 15:19-25ff)

We also detect some other nasties placed into the Good Rebbe's mouth: 'Go not into any of the towns of the goyim, but preach the good-news of the Kingdom of Heaven ONLY (Gk 'Eutheos') to the Elect of the Lost Sheep of the House of Yisro'el')

Seems the goyim (i.e. gentiles, non Jews, etc.) were not worthy of life in his opinion, only the Lost Sheep of the House of Yisro'el.

Which begs the question, why are so many modern Christians oblivious to the fact that their alleged founder was (for want of a better word) a racist-zionist with an agenda of driving off the filthy rotten idolatrous goyim gentile dog invaders from 'the promised' land ?? ('the times of the gentiles are fulfilled...repent and believe the good news of the Kingdom of Heaven!')

Maybe it's that these persons cannot read the Koine Greek of Matthew chapter 15 very well.....and their own clergy is certainly not going to point out that chapter to them !

reply to post by pthena

There's no way to reconcile a Trinity doctrine, and it seems to me that the people who came up with it only wanted people to follow men, and be controlled.

Move everyone up a notch, and you get a man as God.
That's the way I look at it.
The man, meaning the Pope.
Move Jesus up a notch, to equality with the Father, then that leaves a power vacuum in the position of Lord and King, the ruler of the earth.
Conveniently, for people desiring power and authority, that means a throne on earth for the head of the Church.
(by the way: the concept of a "universal church" with a single head comes from Colossians, a demonstrable forgery)


[edit on 10-1-2010 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by pthena
Well, Thanks for all that because that helps me to understand John 1.
It seems that The Word was something held in reserve since creation. Well, there is within The Word, Life and within that, Light. It was something that existed but was never fully appreciated.
But the The Word, as if it is an actual entity, was never something that was involved in that direct and personal of a way, that is, until it was joined miraculously with Jesus.
What I mean is that there is no mention of any exploits of The Word, between creation and the beginning of the ministry of Jesus.
Not with Moses or anyone else. That would explain the verse I quoted, that before Jesus there was not life, just death. Jesus has within himself, by a mystical union with The Word, the ability to give life to others, and not just ordinary life, but eternal life. This is something new that the world has never seen and takes the agency of the very creation, to pull it off.



[edit on 11-1-2010 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by Sigismundus

What makes you think the historical R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the so-called Galilean Nazir (Gk. 'Iesous') was a universalist-humanitarian who liked goyim, rather than an early 1st century Galilean Daviddic Pretender who had no use at all for Gentiles (whom the Dead Sea Scrolls and other 1st century BCE/CE writings refer to as 'idolatrous dogs' like that poor SyroPhoenecian lady who came crawling to him for help with her daughter 'who was afflicted with a bleeder-daemon' ?

Seems to me he gave the poor lady sort schrift:

'The Bar Enasha (aram. 'son of man') was sent ONLY (Gk. Eutheos) to the Elect of the Lost Sheep of the House of Yisro'el...and anyway since when is it right to take the children's bread out of their mouths and throw it away on the dogs under the table ?' (taken from the mangled greek of the 1st council approved 'canonical' Greek gospel aka 'Matthew' whoever he was...see chapter 15:19-25ff)

We also detect some other nasties placed into the Good Rebbe's mouth: 'Go not into any of the towns of the goyim, but preach the good-news of the Kingdom of Heaven ONLY (Gk 'Eutheos') to the Elect of the Lost Sheep of the House of Yisro'el')

Seems the goyim (i.e. gentiles, non Jews, etc.) were not worthy of life in his opinion, only the Lost Sheep of the House of Yisro'el.

Which begs the question, why are so many modern Christians oblivious to the fact that their alleged founder was (for want of a better word) a racist-zionist with an agenda of driving off the filthy rotten idolatrous goyim gentile dog invaders from 'the promised' land ?? ('the times of the gentiles are fulfilled...repent and believe the good news of the Kingdom of Heaven!')

Maybe it's that these persons cannot read the Koine Greek of Matthew chapter 15 very well.....and their own clergy is certainly not going to point out that chapter to them !

Jesus was "an early 1st century Galilean Daviddic Pretender who had no use at all for Gentiles" but that was not his only hat. The SyroPhoenecian lady did get what she wanted after all, as did a Roman centurion.

As for Koine Greek, I'm afraid I don't read that either, although I did study it long ago.

It seems obvious to me that Jesus has a restricted timespan (3 yrs?) in which to do and say what he was going to. He was son of David, therefore son of God, a royal title. He was prophet like Moses. And he was light to the gentiles. He left the worldwide disciple making to his disciples (Matt 28:16-20) As in 'what you have received, share with the world'.

As universalist-humanitarian I think his Great Judgement/ sheep-goats parable pretty much sums that up(Matt 25:31-46)

as for "their alleged founder was (for want of a better word) a racist-zionist with an agenda of driving off the filthy rotten idolatrous goyim gentile dog invaders from 'the promised' land ?? " I don't see where he gave a rat's a** about the promised land. Rather

JN 4:21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

He never told his followers to fight or kill for him, or for the temple, or for the city, or for the land, or for any other reason.

Hi Pthena

Couple of things. First, you knew (didn't you?) that the verses placed into the mouth of a Greek (!) speaking 'Iesous' in the 1st canonical council approved gospel ('Matthew') 28:19-20 are textually problematic in terms what was part of the original book - there is a big chunk of Greek words placed into the mouth of 'Iesous' that are completely absent in the earlier textual copies of this Greek gospel - and were clearly appended to the text by another later group other than the writer(s) whoever he was ('Mattathiah' may have been the 13th disciple i.e. the replacement chosen 'by lots' (see Acts) for the figure of R. Yehudah bar Shimeon Ish Keryiah/Keryiotah i.e. Judas Iscariot after the latter's shall we say departure from the group during the insurrection plans on the hill...)

[Matt 28:19-20) 'Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the Age, Amen..'

This textually corrupt sentence may well have been based on a more primitive Greek logion/saying much like it appears earlier in this gospel e.g. 'go and preach the gospel of the kingdom to the lost sheep of the elect of the House of Yisro'el SCATTERED AMONG THE NATIONS' which is the usual sense when speaking of the 'nations' (since one of the duties of the Messiah was to Re-gather the Lost Sheep Scattered amongst the Goyim' that we see in post Exilic prophetic writings such asTrito-Isaiah &tc.) but the idea for the 11 remaining disciples (even the ones that 'doubted' what they were seeing !) to 'teach all nations' is not part of the earliest Nazorean 1st century Christianities outside of the 'heretical' teachings of the more 'successful' Saoul of Tarsus (who never met this 'Iesous' person in the flesh, only dreams and visions, sort of like my cook) & does not conform to the Weltanschauung of the 1st canoncial 'Ebionite-Nazorean flavour' of the rest of this gospel ('Matthew' whoever he was) who has no mission to the gentiles to speak of...the Nazorian earliest Palestinian Christianities were mostly wiped out during the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome (66CE to 72CE) whereas the 'Pauline' churches in Asia were unscathed and lived to promulgate their gentile loving doctrines.

So anyone who claims that these phrases were part of an early Nazorean Greek textual tradition of the 1st 'canonical' Greek Gospel is either not conversant with the textual MSS situation and related material (as seems to be the case with you) or is a liar (as some clergy seem to be since some of them do know better but never tell their 'sheeple')

Secondly, we do not know the actual length of the socalled ministries of either Yohanon bar Zechariah (aka John the baptist) or his disciple R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean Nazir (aka 'Iesous' if you like it in Greek) or as you say 'restricted time span'.

The chronology outlined in the 2nd Canonical Greek Gospel (according to 'Mark', whoever he was) followed by the 1st Gospel and the 3rd canonical council approved Greek Gospell ('Luke' whoever HE was...) can be squeezed into a single year taken as it stands in their rather geographically-muddled texts (it is obvious the writers of these 'synoptic' gospels have no first hand knowledge of 1st century Palestine) whereas the 4th canonical greek Gospel ('John' whoever he was) seems to posit at least (3) years in terms of theof feasts that are mentioned (at least the author(s) of the 4th gospel seems to have been based at least on one source who knew the area around Jerusalem)---but since we do not know if the 'ministry' lasted 1 year or 3 years or 10 years ---and since we do not know these things, one cannot say that he had anything like a 'restricted timespan' to get his message out.

Certainly the earliest 'most primitive' sayings placed into this man's mouth show no interest in goyim. That was something Saul of Tarsus had to add to the movement's range of interests (which angered some of the Nazorean core disciples to judge from the nasty vitriol in Galatians chapter 2 where we see this Paul 'heretic' (at least according to the Nazorean Ebionites, who knew the Disciples) going a separate way from the original followers of this Iesous person---THEY met the man and heard what he had to say, whereas Saoul of Tarsus did not. So much for any Ministry to the Goyim.

As for your bringing in the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats ('Matthew' 25:31ff ) it clearly makes midrashic use of: Joel 3:11-12 where YHWH’s words are written as: ‘Hasten and come, all you nations about, gather yourselves there. Bring down your warriors, O YHWH Let the nations bestir themselves, and come up to the valley of Kidron : for there I will sit to judge all the nations all around me...' where a future judgment of the nations is to occur at the 'end of the age' when the Messiah is to return and at the time when Jerusalem has already been laid waste by the goyim (Joel 3:9-21)

Either way, the difficult Greek of this parabe the phrase 'the nations' are used in the context of Judgement (as in Joesl) and not being 'loved' e.g.

'When the Bar Enahsa ('son of man') comes comes in his glory, his holy angels with him, then he will on the Throne of his glory: And before his face(s) shall be gathered all of they of [Israel scattered among] the gentiles and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides sheep from goats: then he shall set the sheep on his right hand, and the goats on the left & the King will say unto them on his right : Come blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world' &tc.

and v; 38 Amen I say to you, as ye have done it to one of the least of MY BRETHREN you have done it to me...' note how the term BRETHREN is used by which a Judaean Daviddic Nazir would mean 'only the Jews' -- and seems to have included Sammaratim in that number (he was after all a Galilean & had concorse with northern groups) and was even accused of being one himself by the Judaeans (see the 4th canonical greek gospel 'John' 8:48: You are a Samaritan and we speak rightly to say you are possessed !) at any rate, the Samaratim are still 'Jewish brothers' in his mind (see Luke 10:25 for this pro-Samaritan tradition placed into his mouth).

More later on the 'arming his disciples' with swords (Luke 22:35ff)...

reply to post by Sigismundus
Greetings Sigismundus,

I'm honored that you consider me worth correcting. You probably will not let me get away with quoting any verse without challenging the validity of use, therefore I must insist upon some word from you as a solid declaration.

Couple of things. First, you knew (didn't you?) that the verses placed into the mouth of a Greek (!) speaking 'Iesous' in the 1st canonical council approved gospel ('Matthew') 28:19-20 are textually problematic in terms what was part of the original book -

No, I was aware that parallel saying in gospel called 'Mark' is problematic. I am aware that Jesus probably knew no more Greek than I do.

... one of the duties of the Messiah was to Re-gather the Lost Sheep Scattered amongst the Goyim' that we see in post Exilic prophetic writings such asTrito-Isaiah &tc.)

Even this part of the Messiah's task was carried out by Peter in Acts 2, since the scattered ones were in Jerusalem for Pentecost, some 3,000 getting baptized. I assume they brought the message back to their home synagogues after the festival was over. Still, that's the Diaspora. If I appeal to Matt. 24:14, you can come back with 2nd or 3rd Isaiah and say that's the work among the Diaspora done in the sight of the Gentiles. If I say Philip first preached to the Ethiopians (Acts 8:26-39) or Peter to Cornelius the Italian centurion, But then you may say they were quite surprised themselves to be speaking to Gentile dogs.

If I say the Davidic Messiah role includes rulership over the Nations, you can reply yes, in a rod of iron smashing sort of way. So I turn to the gospel called 'John' which uses such terms as 'whosoever' over and over again, as in whosoever believes, without specifying race or nationality. I quote this one so as to segue:

Jn 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

I don't know your cook, but you seem to show some disdain for visions and dreams. Seems that's all the authority that most of the prophets had for what they said or wrote.

I don't know what you're proposing? Please clarify. Are you proposing throwing away dreams and visions and every piece of literature based on that?

[edit on 11-1-2010 by pthena]

The post-Failed Jewish Revolt Against Rome (66CE to 72CE) period sounded the death knell to the original Apocalyptic Messianic End of Days followers of the historical ‘Ieseous’ i.e. in Palestine---from then on only the Nazorean Ebionites and other related Nazorean groups in and around Antioch carried the torch of the original Nazorean ‘pro Israel’ Jesian-Messianic teachings of their supposed Messianic founder.

Meanwhile (read Galatians chapter 2, in English even) Shaoul-Paul (a man with no ‘apostolic’ authority who fought bitterly with the ‘still Torah abiding Nazroean disciples’ (despite his hysterical claims to the contrary,) never met this Iesous in person in the flesh himself and thus never heard first hand the good Rebbe’s original pro-‘Zionist’ teachings) went off on his own pro gentile preaching tangent much to the shock and awe of the relatives of this Iesous person who had no truck with the goyim—first by hitting the synagogues with his own convoluted messy theologies, then having been kicked out of them, started to reach out to the gentile god fearers and then to polytheists – and making lots of cash in the process for his mission, since his communities survived the war more or less unscathed.
In the later (post Failed Jewish Revolt) 1st century ‘canonical’ Greek Gospels, we are already at least one language away from the original ‘zionist’ pre-Insurrectioin oral sources in Galilean Aramaic, but scholars can still see Rabinnic Midrashic techniques at work in many places, e.g. in the Sheep and the Goats parable which you claim is pro-Gentile:

Nothing can be further from the truth by anyone who takes the time to do the necessary Midrashic research: anyone who has taken the time can see at a glance that Hezekiel 34:4 is the ‘primary Midrashic ‘source’ for this parable placed into the Greek speaking mouth of ‘Iesous’ in the Greek canonical 1st council approved ‘gospel of ‘Matthew’ (whoever he was)
You will see NOTHING WHATSOEVER to so with saving a bunch of idolatrous goyim, but everything to do with searching out the Lost Sheep of the Elect of the House of Yisro’el scattered among the Gentile Nations ‘in the Last Days’ – the parable has NO THING in other words to do with later ‘heretical’ pro-gentile-Pauline doctrines of preaching to or saving the goyim but rather for the Messiah ‘in the last days’ to ‘separate the elect from the house of Israel (‘the sheep of his pasture) from the goats (i.e. the filthy goyim-gentile nations) into which they have been scattered in Exile and to LEAD THEM BACK TO ERETZ YISRO’EL where the gentiles shall no longer be in control of them.

QUOTE (using the proto-Masoretic text from AD 960, and ignoring the earlier Hebrew Vorlagen underlays to the Greek LXX of Aquila or Theodotion or Symmachus or any of the contradictory Dead Sea Scroll Variants, etc.)

Hezekiel34:3bff: Behold, says YHWH: you have not fed the flock, you have not cured the diseased nor healed the sick, nor bound up the broken, neither have ye gathered back again those who have been scattered among the Nations neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled over them for they were scattered among the Nations because there was no shepherd over them to become as fodder to all the beasts of the field, in the Nations into which they were scattered.

34:6 My sheep wandered through the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek for them 34:7 Therefore, ye rulers, hear the word of YHWH
34:8 [As] I live, says the clan-god YHWH, because my flock became as prey, and my flock became as fodder every beast of the field, because [there was] no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock; 34:9 Therefore, Shepherd, hear the Oracle of YHWH : Behold, I [am] against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them. thus YHWH the clan god: Behold, I, [even] I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out even as a Shephed seeks out his scattered flock in the Day that he is among his sheep so also will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all Nations where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. And I will bring them out from the Gentiles and gather them from the Nations, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country. To feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and [in] a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel. Yea I will feed my flock, and cause them to lie down, says the clan-god YHWH to ‘seek that which was lost’ and re-gather them that were scattered abroad & to bind up broken bones and heal the sick: but I will exterminate the fat and the strong ones: yea they shall be fed with Judgement.

34:17 And [as for] you, MY OWN FLOCK, says the clan god YHWH: Behold, I will separate between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats…and behold, I, [even] I YHWH, will separate the fat from the lean cattle in that day, yea I shall separate cattle from cattle because you have scattered them abroad amongst the Nations and piereced their shoulders and their sides, thus I shall SAVE MY FLOCK, that they shall no more be a prey and I shall set up one Shepherd over them to feed them, [even] my servant David; yea he shall feed them, and be their shepherd. And the tree of the field shall yield fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I [am] YHWH when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that caused them to be as slaves to them: they shall no more be a prey to the Nations neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make [them] afraid. And I will raise up for them a Plantation of HaShem and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither shall they be humiliated of the Nations any longer in that Day…’

Is this now a little clearer or do you want more Midrashic Source backup for any of this material?

reply to post by Sigismundus

MT 8:8 The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, `Go,' and he goes; and that one,`Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, `Do this,' and he does it."

MT 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Is this now a little clearer or do you want more Midrashic Source backup for any of this material?

No, I think you've sufficiently exposed my ignorance. I didn't even know there was a modern Ebionite movement. That gives me at least a place to start. Thank you very much.

Apologies to OP for getting side tracked.

reply to post by pthena

No, I think you've sufficiently exposed my ignorance. I didn't even know there was a modern Ebionite movement. That gives me at least a place to start. Thank you very much.

Apologies to OP for getting side tracked.

No no no, Keep going, This is the only place I can learn these things (thank you, and Sig of course) LOL

[edit on 11-1-2010 by oliveoil]

[edit on 11-1-2010 by oliveoil]

reply to post by oliveoil
We live in extraordinary times! Imagine, if you will, the late 1st Century and early 2nd century, before most of the writings we have as the New Testament were written. Every synagogue and Christian congregation with its own flavor of teaching spiced up with open debate and fundamental disagreements; mystery sects meeting in secret. The age of heterodoxy and heresy.

Those days are here again. As a few hardened orthodoxies tighten their grips on those inclined to be led into collusion with and attempt to shape secular nationalist policy, heterodoxies and heresies spring up as phoenixes from the ashes and dustheaps of history. Stamped out and nearly forgotten, they emerge into the current swirl of awakening consciousness and in the interchange of dialog they dance, for awhile with one partner and then with another; a fertile breeding ground for new and better heterodoxies.

There is an old heresy, of which I can't find the name for quickly, I am reviving, which taught that the god of the Old Testament is not the same god that Jesus spoke of as the Father.

Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the only son, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

EX 24:9 Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire, clear as the sky itself. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.

The god of Israel is just that, of Israel, a clan god. All through Exodus YHWH is the Hebrew god, or god of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This god is manifested in several ways, angel in a flame, dark cloud.

Ex 33:9 As Moses went into the tent, the pillar of cloud would come down and stay at the entrance, while the LORD spoke with Moses. 10 Whenever the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance to the tent, they all stood and worshiped, each at the entrance to his tent. 11 The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend.

This clan god does not have any claim to be the god of all, part of his purpose is to distinguish Israel from all the other people.

EX 33:15 Then Moses said to him, "If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. 16 How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?"

(to be continued, I'm going to bed, perhaps someone can name this heresy for me)

reply to post by pthena

Jeremiah 32:27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Who's God is the God in Jeremiah 32:27? Wouldn't "all flesh "be the God of Israel,YHWH, and whoever else claims to be God? Please explain this.

reply to post by pthena

Marcion?
From A Field Guide to Heresies:

. . .he considered the Old Testament God, Jehovah, as the Demiurge, a middle being between the Supreme God and the material world--Jehovah falsely thinking himself supreme. Men were created by the Demiurge with evil and corrupt bodies. The Demiurge created Jesus in an attempt to save mankind, but the Supreme Being sent Christ (who was not born of Mary) to unite with Jesus.

davnet.org...
I might want to adjust my own assessment of the union between Jesus and The Word, after reading this, just to not be mixed up with this philosophy.
The Word is just the active component of creation that has visible results but has to be from a divine source.

John 1:12 But to all who have received him – those who believe in his name – he has given the right to become God’s children – children not born by human parents or by human desire or a husband’s decision, but by God.

Right after this verse, John goes on to say that "The Word became flesh". Regardless of what might be "natural", God has His way. If God wants there to be a Messiah, there is. This person does not have to a pre-existing, anything. The Word is life and light and creative power and in this instance, involved in the actual corporal physical make-up of at least one human being, and through this act of divine will, this "worked on" person has power within himself to make others sons of God, too. Jesus did not have to be anything, or anyone, before he went to work. God is not limited to working with what just happened to exist at His disposal at the instantaneous appearing of a "council of god" that came about as an incorporated entity of the existent universe, as if there is someone else up there, beyond the universe, pulling the strings of simi-material quasi-gods.


[edit on 12-1-2010 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by pthena

 

Marcion?
From A Field Guide to Heresies:

. . .he considered the Old Testament God, Jehovah, as the Demiurge, a middle being between the Supreme God and the material world--Jehovah falsely thinking himself supreme. Men were created by the Demiurge with evil and corrupt bodies. The Demiurge created Jesus in an attempt to save mankind, but the Supreme Being sent Christ (who was not born of Mary) to unite with Jesus.

davnet.org...
I might want to adjust my own assessment of the union between Jesus and The Word, after reading this, just to not be mixed up with this philosophy.
The Word is just the active component of creation that has visible results but has to be from a divine source.

John 1:12 But to all who have received him – those who believe in his name – he has given the right to become God’s children – children not born by human parents or by human desire or a husband’s decision, but by God.

Right after this verse, John goes on to say that "The Word became flesh". Regardless of what might be "natural", God has His way. If God wants there to be a Messiah, there is. This person does not have to a pre-existing, anything. The Word is life and light and creative power and in this instance, involved in the actual corporal physical make-up of at least one human being, and through this act of divine will, this "worked on" person has power within himself to make others sons of God, too. Jesus did not have to be anything or anyone before he went to work. God is not limited to working with what just happened to exist at His disposal at at the instantaneous appearing of a "council of god" that came about as a incorporated entity of the existent universe, as if there is someone else up there, beyond the universe pulling the strings of simi-material quasi-gods.


[edit on 12-1-2010 by jmdewey60]

Now your in agreement with John1:1 as Jesus being the word and God?

reply to post by oliveoil
John 1:1-18 is a funny little piece of literature and is not temporally linear, or logical.
You are trying to make it so, as if there is a sequence that can be followed, in order to support your desired outcome. That would be like looking at the Book of Revelation and thinking you can trace future history by following the sequence of the narrative of the book, verse by verse. It jumps back and forth and reiterates themes.


[edit on 12-1-2010 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by oliveoil

 

John 1:1-18 is a funny little piece of literature and is not temporally linear, or logical.
You are trying to make it so, as if there is a sequence that can be followed, in order to support your desired outcome. That would be like looking at the Book of Revelation and thinking you can trace future history by following the sequence of the narrative of the book, verse by verse. It jumps back and forth and reiterates themes.


[edit on 12-1-2010 by jmdewey60]

Sounds like you are avoiding the question. As for logical, you can pick out any book in the Bible an make that same assessment. Point is John 1:1 says that the word was God. Jesus is the word. There is no way around this as I showed you already.

Hi again, Pthena--

It seems to me that recently you’ve managed to learn a few new facts on this threadlet - #1 you’ve learned that the last verses in the 1st Greek Canonical Council Approved Gospel (‘Matthew’ whoever he was, chapter 28:19-20) are textually corrupted by the sticky trinitarian fi8gers of later hands than the ‘final editors’ of the late first/early 2nd century ‘Nazorean’gospel had originally left the book.

You can read a little about this messy hand-copying issue in general (which of course applies as you mentioned to anything in the 2nd canonical Greek Gospel (‘Mark’ whoever he was) following chapter 16 verse 8….It seems handwritten copies of Greek Gospel related material (in the earliest stages of copying especially) in different places were, well…copied differently.

Human nature I suppose—tampering with a text in order to suit political-religious biases, after all, these were ;’read in the churches’ i.e. they played to their own audiences which were a motely crew at best widely differing from town to town in terms of theology and educational/ethnic makeup. One almost has to speak of ‘Christianities’ in the plural rather than ‘Christianity’ esepcailly after Jerusalem was ground to powder by the Romans in 70CE

Check out the series of general-reader books by Dr Bart Ehrman who has studied these issues for 30 years and has been writing for a whle now for a general English Speaking non-textual-specialist audience (i.e. the average Joe Christian who cannot read Greek, Aramaic or Unpoint Paleo-Hebrew) so you won’t have to worry about your 1st century Koine Greek not being up to snuff with him (with me it is a different matter…).
Ehrman goes into some useful detail (e.g. in his book, ‘Mis-quoting Jesus’ &tc.) for a general readership, although most of everything he mentions has already been well known to scholars for nearly 100 years—it’s just that this information is brand-new to the ‘masses’. (oh, and OliveOil, check out all of his books if you have not already done so – very good general ‘background reading’ to get ‘started’ on your quest for the truth, even if it is a little dumbed down a lot of the time…)

You’ve also learned, haven’t you, that there existed several Nazorean (pre-Pauline and later, anti-Pauline) Palestinian based versions of the Christian movements (many flourished in and around Jerusalem and the Galilee before Rome destroyed them all (more or less) by 70CE, and some of them managed to survive in tatters amongst the Ebionim and the Nazorim into the Middle Ages in small congregations –

And technically, yes, contrary of popular belief, some of these types of Torah Abididing Salvation by Ma’asot (‘works’) ‘Kashruth-Christians’ are still around today…) the core leadership (called Mekabberim i.e. epi-skopoi or ‘overseers’ hence (episkopoi-‘Bishops’ who were closed from the blood-line of the Daviddic family of ‘Iesous’ (R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean Nazir—so you’ve learned the full name of the guy too), which existed in OPPOSITION to other non palestinian foreign ‘christian’ related messianic groups e.g. the Pauline ‘Salvation by Faith’ Greek speaking ‘Christians’ who lived in the Diaspora (and having given up Kashrut and circumcision in order to make more converts and more money) who played mainly to the god-fearer-gentile audiences (the Jews of the Diaspora having found Apocalyptic Messianism a little unnecessary to their more economically viable lives outside of Roman Occupied Palestine where this R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean Nazir person sought to expel the occupiers and set up a Messianic Zionist Kingdom of his own run from Jerusalem e.g. 'the Times of the Gentiles are fulfilled...' taken from Genesis 'until the Times of the Amorites are fulfilled...').

Presumably you already know that ‘Saul of Tarsus’ in Cilicia (aka Paul) never actually met this R. Yehoshua militant in the flesh…or knew the first thing about him irst hand, only in hearsay from some of the disciples and also by his guilt ridden dreams and visions (in Greek no doubt), which is a very dangerous way upon which to base a person’s whole Weltanschauung.

Galatians chapter 2 (where this gentile loving anti Circumcisioin, anti-Kashrut, anti Disciple heretic Paul upstart person sneers the original disciples of ‘R. Yehoshua’ calling them ‘those so-called Pillars of the Church !' out of jealous spite, no doubt ! ('as one untimely born, came I..').

It was shall we say ‘lucky for Paul’s later reputation’ that the Torah abiding Ebionim-Nazorean ‘Christians’ (along with most of the Davidds) all more or less were exterminated by the Romans in the 1st failed Jewish War against Rome in 70CE. His heretical mess of worshippers scattered all over Asia Minor and the Empire (read his 7 so called ‘authentic letters’) managed to live on to influence what later became the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches (all of which are what we would call ‘Pauline’ essentially), with the Jesian-Nazorean churches shoved way into the background and shrunk down to a nub. Echoes of the Nazorean (i.e. original Zionist-Palestinian Aramaic speaking followers of the NAZIR (or ‘branch of David’, see Zech 6:9 which you can happily read in English if your un-pointed paleo-Hebrew is not up to par) can be found in the 1st canonical Greek gospel with its emphasis on ‘salvation by works’ and ‘preach not unto the goyim-gentiles’ theologies are still buried deep in the traditions, despite efforts of later editors (e.g. the last two verses of the book) to mollify this antiGentile stance of its alleged founder.

You’ve also gathered (I gather) from this threadlet that the canonical Greek-Gospel material are not pure positivistic HISTORY that can be believed in every detail but Midrashic expansions of Hebrew Scriptures, many of which are based on the Aramaic Targum of the ‘old testament’ psalms and prophets. Many of the 'OT' citatioin proof texts cited by the canonical 1st gospel ('Matthew') are not taken from the Septuagint or from Theodotion or from Aquila OR from Symmachus but from a loose translation into Greek of the Aramaic Targum tradition--which makes some of that gospel's sources part of the older oral Aramaic substratum.

There is a great deal more material to cover on this subject, but it would be a little off topic here to persue them. Although I doubt if OliveOil would mind if we did from time to time get a little off the beaten-track just to make a point or two !

reply to post by Sigismundus

oh, and OliveOil, check out all of his books if you have not already done so – very good general ‘background reading’ to get ‘started’ on your quest for the truth, even if it is a little dumbed down a lot of the time…)

Im off to the book store as we speak.I guess If you want to hang with the big boys you should at least learn a thing or two first lol. (Im still struggling with Isaiah)

There is a great deal more material to cover on this subject, but it would be a little off topic here to persue them. Although I doubt if OliveOil would mind if we did from time to time get a little off the beaten-track just to make a point or two !

Oh, I could care less. I love when a topic ends up in the opposite direction it started out from. Lets see where it goes!

[edit on 12-1-2010 by oliveoil]

reply to post by oliveoil

Sounds like you are avoiding the question. As for logical, you can pick out any book in the Bible an make that same assessment. Point is John 1:1 says that the word was God. Jesus is the word. There is no way around this as I showed you already.

So, according to your reading of John 1, John the Baptist testifies about Jesus three times?
Once before he knew who he was. Once when he baptized him. Once when Jesus walks by, some time after the baptism?
Just wondering where you stand on all that.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

According to the above verse, if The Word literally became flesh, then it lost any useful attributes. John 1:14, in the Greek, says that The Word dwelt in us. So one way of understanding that is by looking at the verse I quoted as meaning that The Word is in Jesus as the words coming from him, which is truth.

reply to post by oliveoil

Jeremiah 32:27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Who's God is the God in Jeremiah 32:27? Wouldn't "all flesh "be the God of Israel,YHWH, and whoever else claims to be God? Please explain this.

Prophets became a professional class. There were serious consequences involved if one prophesied in a different name than YHWH.

DT 18:17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

DT 18:21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Beginning about the time of Jeremiah, after the Samarian tribes had been deported and Judah was soon to be busted up by the Babylonians due to the great failures of their kings, the One true God of all, the omnipresent invisible One also wanted to speak to the people warnings and hope.

Jeremiah, I think, is the first of these prophets who spoke in the name of YHWH the clan god, and for lack of a different name spoke also in the name of YHWH, the One true God. If he had used a different name he would have been killed too soon for God's message to be proclaimed.

reply to post by jmdewey60

From A Field Guide to Heresies:

. . .he considered the Old Testament God, Jehovah, as the Demiurge, a middle being between the Supreme God and the material world--Jehovah falsely thinking himself supreme. Men were created by the Demiurge with evil and corrupt bodies. The Demiurge created Jesus in an attempt to save mankind, but the Supreme Being sent Christ (who was not born of Mary) to unite with Jesus.

Marcion uses Platonic or Neoplatonic terms like 'Demiurge' whereas I would say 'angel' as in messenger. Toward the end of Daniel chapter 10 a picture starts forming of angelic beings called Princes; as in Michael, Prince of 'your prince' either of Israel or Judah, a Prince of Persia is mentioned and also Prince of Greece.

Marcion goes too far, I think, in claiming YHWH falsely claims supremacy. There is a stiff warning in Jude about slander.

JUDE 1:8 In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10 Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals--these are the very things that destroy them.

We should keep this warning in mind while considering these subjects.

On the Word, I think I agree with you, the active will/creative force of the One God, working life/light/Presence in the mortal man Jesus son of Mary. This Word also can be somewhat equated with the Holy Spirit/spirit of adoption available to all mankind.

(I have to baby sit for a while)