Do you honestly not think this is a nude image?

reply to post by Lillydale

Unless you are some kind of lemming that depends on private companies to fly them around and then whines on some forum about how that private company conducts its own business.

Not private businesses that are forcing these machines. In fact it is being done in spite of private business.

[edit on 9-1-2010 by harvib]

Originally posted by harvib
reply to post by Lillydale

 

Unless you are some kind of lemming that depends on private companies to fly them around and then whines on some forum about how that private company conducts its own business.

Not private businesses that are forcing these machines. In fact it is being done in spite of private business.

[edit on 9-1-2010 by harvib]

That is completely beside the point. It is in patronizing this private business that you volunteer to put up with their tactics. If they want to protest these scanners, they are free to go out of business as well. We are all still free. It is just funny to see people call others lemmings and then cry about their precious 'rights' to enjoy privilege being infringed upon.

[edit on 1/9/10 by Lillydale]

I hate to say this, but the truth hurts. These machines will not make flying safer. I can think of half a dozen easy ways top defeat the process, which means others can as well. These scanners simply look at a specific density and go no further, that being of skin. There are many silicons and polymers that have equivalent densities that could even be made to replicate near perfect densities within say 0.5% tolerance. So basically, 20 lbs of semtex which has a low sniffer/nitrate threshold could be vacuum packed within a molded and fitted pregnancy suit. Trigger components could be taken onboard separately. I am quite sure DHS and TSA or any material scientist know this.

So, be prepared for the scanners to fall by the wayside in the next year or two and be replaced with something even more invasive and dangerous to your health, or maybe just real full nude searches.

We live in a band-aid society, in this case scanners are a band-aid like everything else. There is no money in a cure, like say changing foreign policy and stopping pissing everyone off. Creating specific fears creates new markets to be exploited. As long as governments and their handlers have this negative mindset, I am quite sure we'll continue to see foreign based terrorism. After a time, if people get annoyed by all the limitations on freedoms and requirements for absolute subservience, I expect the governments perception of the situation will change and focus on what they perceive as "domestic" terrorism.

One governments terrorist is somebody's freedom fighter, right? Just two sides of the same coin...

Cheers - Dave

Originally posted by bobs_uruncle
I hate to say this, but the truth hurts. These machines will not make flying safer. I can think of half a dozen easy ways top defeat the process, which means others can as well. These scanners simply look at a specific density and go no further, that being of skin. There are many silicons and polymers that have equivalent densities that could even be made to replicate near perfect densities within say 0.5% tolerance. So basically, 20 lbs of semtex which has a low sniffer/nitrate threshold could be vacuum packed within a molded and fitted pregnancy suit. Trigger components could be taken onboard separately. I am quite sure DHS and TSA or any material scientist know this.

So, be prepared for the scanners to fall by the wayside in the next year or two and be replaced with something even more invasive and dangerous to your health, or maybe just real full nude searches.

We live in a band-aid society, in this case scanners are a band-aid like everything else. There is no money in a cure, like say changing foreign policy and stopping pissing everyone off. Creating specific fears creates new markets to be exploited. As long as governments and their handlers have this negative mindset, I am quite sure we'll continue to see foreign based terrorism. After a time, if people get annoyed by all the limitations on freedoms and requirements for absolute subservience, I expect the governments perception of the situation will change and focus on what they perceive as "domestic" terrorism.

One governments terrorist is somebody's freedom fighter, right? Just two sides of the same coin...

Cheers - Dave

Beautifully said.

Cheers.

yeah, thats a nude image alright. great.

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
reply to post by harvib

 

I'll start complaining when the time comes that the machines are reading secret desires.

[edit on 1/9/2010 by Soylent Green Is People]

Well here you are sir, would you like some tea with that. Granted it is not exactly what you asked for but fairly close.


www.foxnews.com...

reply to post by harvib

You seem to be confused about the concept of the term "United States Government". Hate to break it to you but "property of the U.S. Government" usually means "we the people" are to keep our hands off. Despite what your local community college's civics class taught you United States Government is not synonymous with the people of the United States.

That is simply not true. It is absurd, really. Even paranoid. But hey, thats what drives conspiracies and gives food to ATS, so what ever floats your boat, I guess.

"Property of the U.S. Government" means that it is property owned by 'We the People' in order to perform some task or provide some service on behalf of 'We the People'. In order to effectively and efficiently perform that task or service, some individuals are authorized to access or use that property and some are not. This is a republican democracy, not an anarchy.

No the law is assigning sovereignty to the Corporation that is based out of the District of Columbia. You and I aren't part of "We the People".

Again not true. I assume you are referring to the FAA here, which I suppose may legally be la corporation, wholly owned by the United States Government on behalf of 'We the People'. It is merely the body that has been given specific authority to manage the airspace on behalf of the U.S. Government, on behalf of 'We the People'.

Do you really think that all the business of the US Government on behalf of 'We the People' can be done without compartmentalizing it into specialists areas? Do you expect the president to make a 100,000 decisions in 10,000 meetings a day? Why do you think the Constitution grants him authority to hire his own advisors? Why do you think Congress sets up these agencies?

reply to post by bobs_uruncle

So, be prepared for the scanners to fall by the wayside in the next year or two and be replaced with something even more invasive and dangerous to your health, or maybe just real full nude searches.

My wife suggested the other day that airlines should just give us all a jumpsuit as required wear on the plane. We would change into the provided clothes and our street wear could then be thoroughly searched and returned at the other end. While we are changing, under the watch full eyes of security guards it can be ensured that we aren't concealing anything under our clothes. She hasn't come up with a solution for cavity searches yet, but I imagine a walkthrough XRay machine would fit the bill.

So... strip and deposit your clothes in a security bag, walk through the Xray, put on the flight suit on the other side, and Bob is your uncle! (sorry couldn't resist )

reply to post by Lillydale

That is completely beside the point.

Maybe to you. To me it is a major cause for concern. I don't believe in a Government that should be so large and powerful as to be able to infest an industry, especially the travel industry, the way TSA has. Is it not cause for concern when the ability of free travel is impeded. Is the potential for an ulterior motive not self evident?

It is in patronizing this private business that you volunteer to put up with their tactics. If they want to protest these scanners, they are free to go out of business as well. We are all still free.

This, to me, is an absurd point. Are you to state that if the Federal Government were to institute invasive "security measures" that may or may not be harmful to your health in order to access any and all means of travel, you would still believe yourself to be free? And those business are also free? How is this so? What is your definition of freedom? Is it to have a choice in spite of the consequences? Wouldn't a slave also be free according to that definition?

reply to post by rnaa

That is simply not true. It is absurd, really. Even paranoid. But hey, thats what drives conspiracies and gives food to ATS, so what ever floats your boat, I guess.

Absurd and paranoid? Then it should be easy enough to substantiate your claim which you conveniently failed to do.

"Property of the U.S. Government" means that it is property owned by 'We the People' in order to perform some task or provide some service on behalf of 'We the People'. In order to effectively and efficiently perform that task or service, some individuals are authorized to access or use that property and some are not. This is a republican democracy, not an anarchy.

Again substantiate your claim. What proof of ownership do you have? Can you produce a single document that identifies you as part owner of anything owned by the UNITED STATES? Despite what you believe the "U.S. Government" is not a co-op. It is the governing body of the UNITED STATES, a corporation. I'll substantiate that claim when I address your next point.

Again not true. I assume you are referring to the FAA here, which I suppose may legally be la corporation, wholly owned by the United States Government on behalf of 'We the People'. It is merely the body that has been given specific authority to manage the airspace on behalf of the U.S. Government, on behalf of 'We the People'.

No. I mean the UNITED STATES a corporation based out of the District of Columbia.

Forty-first Congress, Section 34, Session III, chapter 62

Also from the UNITED STATES CODE, TITLE 28 3002 (15)

(15) “United States” means—
(A) a Federal corporation;
(B) an agency, department, commission, board, or other entity of the United States; or
(C) an instrumentality of the United States.

And you keep implying to be part of "we the people" that has ownership of the UNITED STATES. Where is your stock certificate? Where is your legal documentation?

You can call my statements absurd and call me paranoid. Fine. But I challenge you to walk into any Court room and try to claim part ownership of the UNITED STATES or any property thereof.

Originally posted by harvib
Is it not cause for concern when the ability of free travel is impeded.

They are not impeding free travel, you are free to walk to any destination you want

reply to post by dereks


If you dont feel safe without the body scanner then dont travel...

Simple enough.

You'll feel safer at home anyways.

Originally posted by harvib
Maybe to you. To me it is a major cause for concern. I don't believe in a Government that should be so large and powerful as to be able to infest an industry, especially the travel industry, the way TSA has. Is it not cause for concern when the ability of free travel is impeded. Is the potential for an ulterior motive not self evident?

Then you live in the WRONG COUNTRY. Who do you think regulates and makes important decisions about how hospitals work, doctors can practice, food that is sold in stores, etc. The U.S. government is in EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE. I would think some people would be relieved that at least this time they are letting us know they are coming and what for (so far). The are not impeding travel. They are impeding your ability to patronize a particular business. It is not even the industry because if you have your own plane, you can hop on it all you like without getting scanned. This is capitalist America. Go get your own plane and quite crying.

This, to me, is an absurd point. Are you to state that if the Federal Government were to institute invasive "security measures" that may or may not be harmful to your health in order to access any and all means of travel, you would still believe yourself to be free?

Huh? Are you just looking for an emotional reaction? What did you even just ask me. When is the government going to stop me from using roads and sidewalks? When will they be breaking my legs and hiding all wheeled support from me? Of course if all methods of travel were restricted I would not feel free.

That is not even a little bit close to what is happening here.

And those business are also free? How is this so? What is your definition of freedom? Is it to have a choice in spite of the consequences? Wouldn't a slave also be free according to that definition?

You mean the definition you asked me for and then referred to within the same post? I am not sure how being a slave would fit any definition I have not given you YET and I find it amazing that you can be so psychic.

Yes, they are free, just as we all are. We are all only free to a point here. There are restrictions on all of us. Personally, if I ran an airline I would fight these scanners. The airlines are not doing that. Do not do it for them. They are ready willing and able to let this all go down so until I read about the airlines trying to fight it, I am not exactly going to buddy up with them. They want scanners, the government wants scanners. I like to drive my car.

I do not have to get scanned to go anywhere and I live in the same country as all the rest of you so either I have more rights than you or this is not a rights issue, it is a privilege issue.


[edit on 1/10/10 by Lillydale]

reply to post by Lillydale

The are not impeding travel. They are impeding your ability to patronize a particular business.

Well I'm glad we can agree there is an impediment occurring.

This is capitalist America.

A Government who has the ability to impede "your ability to patronize a particular business" is not capitalism.

It is not even the industry because if you have your own plane, you can hop on it all you like without getting scanned.

There are impediments for private pilots as well.

Huh? Are you just looking for an emotional reaction? What did you even just ask me. When is the government going to stop me from using roads and sidewalks? When will they be breaking my legs and hiding all wheeled support from me? Of course if all methods of travel were restricted I would not feel free.

That is not even a little bit close to what is happening here.

Now stay with me here. So today you are impeded from patronizing airline businesses and you state you are free. Tomorrow you are impeded from patronizing the sea-line businesses, you may still state you are free. Further along you are impeded from patronizing the automobile industry, at what point do you wake up and realize you are not free.

I believe it is what is happening. If you can accept what is happening today, and tomorrow is restricted just a fraction more then the previous day you may not notice or care. However as this goes on year after year at some point you would have to realize that you are not free.

You mean the definition you asked me for and then referred to within the same post?

I was asking if your definition of freedom was the ability to make a choice in spite of the consequences.

I am not sure how being a slave would fit any definition I have not given you YET and I find it amazing that you can be so psychic. Yes, they are free, just as we all are.

So our disagreement is one of semantics. Our ideas of freedom our vastly different. I don't believe a slave to be free but fair enough if you do.

I like to drive my car.

I like to fly. I wonder if you will still be so complacent when your means of travel is impeded.



[edit on 10-1-2010 by harvib]

reply to post by dereks

They are not impeding free travel, you are free to walk to any destination you want

Oh ya? I would like to walk to Africa. How does that work out?

[edit on 10-1-2010 by harvib]

How is it that a thread that has been based on a proven HOAX still has legs??? Are you people really that bored??? (I must be for posting this reply!)

reply to post by harvib


Yea, I will step in here...

Again substantiate your claim. What proof of ownership do you have? Can you produce a single document that identifies you as part owner of anything owned by the UNITED STATES? Despite what you believe the "U.S. Government" is not a co-op. It is the governing body of the UNITED STATES, a corporation. I'll substantiate that claim when I address your next point.

I will supply you with a DD214, that says that I am US Government Property, and that I have an investment in the US Government, and Yes, I am a part owner in the US Government".

I will also advise you to read the Constitution before you get on your almighty soap box, and brush up on the "Uniform Code of Military Justice" while you are at it.

As far as a corporation?
The US Government is NOT a corporation, not by any means, and especially, any legal means. You need some political and HISTORICAL education.

Originally posted by harvib

Well I'm glad we can agree there is an impediment occurring.

Yup! Just like the gas station is impeding my right to smoke cigarettes by making me pay for them. Everything has strings but this is not an infringement on any of your rights.

A Government who has the ability to impede "your ability to patronize a particular business" is not capitalism.

Than you now understand that this has never been a capitalist country I guess.

There are impediments for private pilots as well.

I thought this was about the scanners? If you want to talk about impediments applied by the government, you will need a whole new thread. There are impediments to everything. You are whining about the scanners. If you do not like the scanners, get your own plane. If you are concerned about impediments, you should just end it all now. My property line is an impediment to your travel (by ANY METHOD) and you will not be changing that any time soon.

Now stay with me here. So today you are impeded from patronizing airline businesses and you state you are free.

I am not impeded from using them, you are. You are the one crying about having to go through scanners to get on planes. I really do not care about the scanners so either way, they are not impeding me at all. This seems to be more of a personal issue. I can still fly all I like. I just have to be less shy about my body. Luckily, I spend a good deal of time keeping my body in very healthy shape. Who is stopping me from flying? Anyway, you are still stretching quiiiiiiiiiite a bit. If I want to go somewhere, I can go somewhere. No one has tried to change that. If I wanted to drive a car, I need to qualify for a driver's license or have money to pay a driver. I find that quite impeding already. It certainly got in the way when I was 14. Where are you on that issue? Why are you not out there shouting from the rooftops about how hard it is to get someplace with all that government interference, (license, speed limits, stop signs, etc.) I cannot believe you are not more upset about how hard it is to drive a car in the U.S.

Tomorrow you are impeded from patronizing the sea-line businesses, you may still state you are free.

Maybe because I have my own boat. When the government tries to search me before getting into my own boat, you will be the first person I contact. If they want to search you more to get a a cruise ship, good. People pay a lot for a nice cruise and it should be guaranteed safe. So, even in your fantasy I am free to sail wherever I like. Still free.

Further along you are impeded from patronizing the automobile industry, at what point do you wake up and realize you are not free.

Again required insurance, tags, plates, inspections, etc. That boat sailed a long time ago. Do you even realize how much easier it is to walk through a scanner and get on a plane than it is to get a license and buy and own a car in this country? Maybe you need to start at the DMV and work your way up to the airlines if you are so worried about impediments.

I believe it is what is happening. If you can accept what is happening today, and tomorrow is restricted just a fraction more then the previous day you may not notice or care. However as this goes on year after year at some point you would have to realize that you are not free.

This is what you believe because you are paranoid based on nothing. I am guess you listen to Alex Jones, correct? What was it last year? The year before? How about the year before that? What is this long list of slippery slope activities that have been going on with which you used to see this trend? Is it actually based on anything and you just want to save it for the end?

I would notice as soon as my real freedoms are actually impeded upon. Many of them are each and every day in fact. Here in the U.S. we get our rights trampled all the time but so far, I can still get on a plane any time I want.

I was asking if your definition of freedom was the ability to make a choice in spite of the consequences.

I know what you were asking. I was pointing out that within the same post you both asked me and then reacted to my answer. Do you see how actually waiting to let me answer would have made your response to my answer make a little more sense? Apparently you did not want to know since you went ahead and commented on what would have or might have been my answer anyway so whatever.

So our disagreement is one of semantics. Our ideas of freedom our vastly different. I don't believe a slave to be free but fair enough if you do.

Nope. That was my point about waiting for me to answer you before reacting to my answer. Then this would have actually made some sense to you. No, slaves are not free. This is what you get when you ask questions, respond to the answer, then wait for the answer.

I like to fly. I wonder if you will still be so complacent when your means of travel is impeded.

You fly your own plane and you are upset about these scanners? Why you will not need to go through one to fly your own plane.

...and just one last time.

Driving is the MOST IMPEDED method of travel in the U.S. so please oh please stop trying to compare the scanner taking away your right to travel to my freedom to go where I want. That argument is insane at best.

Originally posted by Lillydale

Originally posted by harvib

Well I'm glad we can agree there is an impediment occurring.

Yup! Just like the gas station is impeding my right to smoke cigarettes by making me pay for them. Everything has strings but this is not an infringement on any of your rights.

You don't even make sense.

You don't have a right to infringe on other people's rights.


Edit: That Gas station remark was so unintelligent that I have taken a screenshot which my friends and I will laugh about later.

At least something good came out of your Huge posts.

[edit on 10-1-2010 by Exuberant1]

Originally posted by Exuberant1

Originally posted by Lillydale

Originally posted by harvib

Well I'm glad we can agree there is an impediment occurring.

Yup! Just like the gas station is impeding my right to smoke cigarettes by making me pay for them. Everything has strings but this is not an infringement on any of your rights.

You don't even make sense.

You don't have a right to infringe on other people's rights.


Edit: That Gas station remark was so unintelligent that I have taken a screenshot which my friends and I will laugh about later.

At least something good came out of your Huge posts.

LOL, awesome. Perhaps your friends will understand context better than you and come read what that was a reply to and actually get it. I hope at least one of them is smarter than you. No the gas station is not actually IMPEDING MY RIGHTS, but then I guess you were not paying attention to what I was replying to were you? Yes, it was an unintelligent statement and not a true one. It was a perfect comparison to what I was being told was impeding someone else's rights to buy a plane ticket. Garbage in, garbage out. Make sure you let those friends read the post I replied to and they can all laugh at you together.

edit to add:Look up sarcasm while you are learning about context.

[edit on 1/10/10 by Lillydale]