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The Russians Are Coming! (UFOlogy for information gathering or disinformation)

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posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 11:08 AM
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My first ever thread
.

I was reading a piece on James Carrion's blog (the international director of MUFON), I think it's very much relevant today, but is very much an opinion piece by itself:

followthemagicthread.blogspot.com...

An extract:


Silly really, but the game has been played too long and the intelligence agencies are in too deep to stop now. So the game continues with each successive move of a game piece more elaborate than the previous. However there is no check mate in this game, because it has been played for more than 60 years with no winner, although it was put on hold when cold war tensions eased. With the resurgence of tense relations between Russia and the United States, the game is back in play, and Ufologists are once again faced with being manipulated as pawns in a game that is not of their choosing. While terrestrial hands exchange game pieces, the phenomenon itself flies overhead untouched and out of reach.


Venona very much existed, and I know from reading books like David Kahn's The Codebreakers that a situation where people go free to hide intercepts is quite plausible, going back to very early interception of ciphers, hundreds of years ago.

However, my main problem with the piece is that it seems as much a conspiracy theory as claims of a government cover-up of UFOs. I have long wondered whether there were concerted efforts to hide top secret projects by creating myths and encouraging the less conservative elements of the UFOlogy community. But that's suspicion, not evidence. It's not something I believe.

There seems to be very little evidence. I've heard rumours that UFOs were used as cover for programs like Mogul or Skyhook, but seen little evidence for that. Likewise the assertion that UFOlogists received money or support, directly or indirectly, from foreign governments strikes me as a huge, but seemingly unsupported claim.

I suppose my question boils down aside from suspicion, what evidence is there that either of the Cold War adversaries used UFOlogists as a cover or to gather intelligence?

[edit on 7/1/2010 by jackphotohobby]




posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 04:56 PM
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A very productive line of inquiry! I discussed this very theme on MSNBC last month apropos of the Norway 'spiral UFO' -- see
www.msnbc.msn.com...

Also, my home page has a number of articles over the years addressing how Soviet UFO reports often were caused by their own military space and missile activity.

See www.jamesoberg.com...

and select from the menu

Soviet/Russian UFO Mysteries

Skeptical Inquirer, Jan-Feb 2009 -- Classic Soviet 1984 UFO was Top Secret Sub Missile Launch

10/1982 - MUFON UFO Journal: The Great Soviet UFO Coverup

1983 - FATE: Giant UFO Over Two Continents

12/1994 - OMNI: Rocket Launching Caused Famous 1984 Soviet UFO

04/1994 -OMNI Magazine: Soviet Saucers

Review of TNT "Soviet KGB UFO Files" program (1998)

08/08/2000 - Russian Report Says Most UFOs are Rocket Launches

08/20/2004 - MSNBC.com: Buffs Cling to Faded UFO Camouflage Stories

08/27/2007 - Caucasus Military Shoots at Re-entering Russian Satellite

05/15/2008 - MSNBC: How to crack a case from the UFO files (Soviet military missile event)



[edit on 7-1-2010 by JimOberg]



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 05:31 PM
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reply to post by JimOberg
 


Thanks Jim! Haven't had time to read them all yet, currently reading "The Great Soviet UFO Coverup". Fascinating reading, thank you.



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 06:26 PM
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reply to post by jackphotohobby
 


Jackphotohobby -interesting thread (especialy for your first one
) - theres some other interesting/relevant reading below about how Russian leaders turned their entire country into "one gigantic UFO listening post" in the 1980s -theres also another intriguing tale about how Yuri Andropov ordered four million Soviet soldiers to file detailed reports of UFO incidents:



Soviet UFOs

The Russians approached the subject of UFOs with the utmost seriousness and attention to detail.
Boris Sokolov, a retired Russian Colonel ran an in-depth study in 1980. "For 10 years," Sokolov said, "the entire Soviet Union became one gigantic UFO listening post."
There were 40 cases where pilots encountered UFOs, explained Sokolov. Initially, they were commanded to chase, and then shoot the UFOs. But when the pilots engaged, the UFO would speed up.
On two occasions, pilots gave chase, lost control and crashed, with the crew killed on impact. After these unfortunate incidents, the pilots received another order: When they saw a UFO they should change course - and get away.
On October 5, 1983 Sokolov received an order from his commander to leave immediately for the Ukraine. A report from the base commander to the Chief of the General Staff claimed that the day before, from 4 until 8 in the evening, a UFO had been observed near the base. During that time, the missile launch codes had mysteriously been enabled.

Yuri Andropov, the former Soviet leader and long-time head of the KGB, had an acute personal interest in UFOs and ordered a 13-year program that required every soldier in the military to monitor sightings over Russian territory. Through Andropov's personal interest, in 1978, two committees were established to investigate UFOs, one military and one civilian. Andropov ordered four million Soviet soldiers to file detailed reports of incidents. According to some sources, the program led to hundreds of thousands of sightings being recorded in the 13 years before it was abandoned with the break-up of the Soviet Union in 1990.
www.nationalufocenter.com...





Also, don't know if it will help discussion along but here are some interesting statements regarding Soviet UFOs:



"The phenomenon of UFOs does exist, and it must be treated seriously".
Mikhail Gorbachev,
Premiere of the Soviet Union.
Interview as reported in 'Soviet Youth',May 4th,1990.






"As a rule, [places where UFOs appear] are objects of strategic significance... They came up with a table with pictures of all the shapes of UFOs that had ever been recorded-about fifty-ranging from ellipses and spheres to something resembling spaceships...The study of UFOs may reveal some new forms of energy to us, or at least bring us closer to a solution.
Major General Vasily Alexeyev -Russian Space Communications Center





"Unidentified flying objects are a very serious subject which we must study fully. We appeal to all viewers to send us details of strange flying craft seen over the territories of the Soviet Union. This is a serious challenge to science and we need the help of all Soviet citizens."
"Observations show that UFOs behave 'sensibly.' In a group formation flight, they maintain a pattern. They are most often spotted over airfields, atomic stations and other very new engineering installations. On encountering aircraft, they always maneuver so as to avoid direct contact. A considerable list of these seemingly intelligent actions gives the impression that UFOs are investigating, perhaps even reconnoitering... The important thing now is for us to discard any preconceived notions about UFOs and to organize on a global scale a calm, sensation-free and strictly scientific study of this strange phenomenon. The subject and aims of the investigation are so serious that they justify all efforts. It goes without saying that international cooperation is vital."
Dr. Felix Y. Zigel, Professor of mathematics and astronomy at the Moscow Aviation Institute





"I am not a specialist on UFOs, and, therefore, I can only correlate the data and express my own supposition."
General Igor Maltsev, in the newspaper Rabochaya Tribune for April 19, 2005
General Igor Maltsev reported that he had reports of "more than 100 visual observations" compiled by commanders of several air defense units of the Moscow Military District of a UFO which has been seen in the area of Pereslavl-Zalesskiy in the northeast of Moscow on March 21, 1990.
Maltsev included with his report to the newspaper five testimonials, including a report by a pilot who flew over the object and a report from a ground radar tracking station. The pilot saw only two lights and a dimly perceived silhouette of the object against city lights. The radar station reported a sighting of a rapidly moving, shining object with red lights and another with white lights that followed the first. The report included times, azimuths and distances of the reported objects.






"...and it was up to them to tell us if they (UFOs) were real---some type of vehicle flying through our atmosphere. If they were real,then they would have to be spacecraft because no one at the meeting gave a second thought to the possibility that the UFOs might be a super secret U.S. aircraft or a Soviet development. The scientists knew everything that was going on in the U.S. and they knew that no country in the world had developed their technology far enough to build such a craft that would perform as the UFOs were reported to do."
Captain Ed Ruppelt -Chief of Project BlueBook

Link


Cheers.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 06:38 PM
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reply to post by karl 12
 


Thanks Karl 12. Still reading
.

So far sceptical of James Carrion's tacit assertion that such things have gone on in the US or NATO countries in regards of UFOlogists. The claims seem somewhat plausible, but given the financial motives involved with the more extreme end of UFOlogy (which, financially, of course didn't technically exist in Soviet countries), I don't see that any government involvement on the US part would be necessary or prudent because it could have exposed their own programs. Much as happened in Russia as an unintended side-effect.

I like MUFON, last few years they seem to have shrugged off a lot of charlatans, but the claims in that blog entry seem to be true in the case of Russia, but I still haven't seen anything to lead me to conclude it happened in the US or NATO countries. So not so keen on Carrion's blog post, and I think it could be too much of a blanket assertion about UFOlogy.

Although I've not read everything yet so that opinion could change. Here in the UK the UFO hotline, via DIS, certainly kept an eye out for enemy technology, but doesn't seem to have been involved in propagating myths.

[edit on 7/1/2010 by jackphotohobby]



posted on Jan, 17 2010 @ 10:10 AM
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reply to post by jackphotohobby
 


Hey Jack, I see what you mean about Carrion's blog post -he does seem to be making a lot of blanket assertions -he also uses quite a bit of negative terminology which is never wise when you're trying to portray yourself as objective - maybe its a good job he's left the post at MUFON.

Found this other interesting interview with the Head of the Soviet MOD's investigations team Colonel Boris Sokolov - he makes some very intriguing remarks in this video (around 22:30).

Cheers.



posted on Jan, 17 2010 @ 10:37 AM
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I think we need more people like James Carrion in the field.

Many people (i.e. true believers) don't like him probably because he sticks to the facts and common sense, instead of making grandiose statements (assumptions) about aliens and their plans, unlike some other shady characters that populate the field.

I've been reading his blog for a while and found it to be very interesting and informative. It looks at things in a serious fashion and focus on some aspects, that in my opinion, should be looked at more frequently—mainly the intelligence world and its involvement in the UFO subject.

His appearance on The Paracast is reflective of Carrion's grounded approach to the subject.

In all, I find Carrion, his approach and articles a breath of fresh air in a field that is polluted, unfortunately, to a point perhaps beyond saving.




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