reply to post by sirnex
The bible was written thousands of years ago, before we had any knowledge about the way the universe really works.
The bible also appears in the beginning to be a collection of reworked older mythologies. It's an interesting story, but certainly not the first time
it's been told. Only the first time it's been told in that form.
Yes this is true, the bible's creation story was not first written in the bible, but in the mythological texts of earlier civilizations. It was
simply transcribed and put into the Judaic bible. I never said it was the first time it was told; the context of the OP was referring to the bible's
creation story, as written in the bible.
People were still asking the same questions we do today, such as "where did we come from" and "how did everything begin?". With such
a limited scientific frame to work with, the only logical answers that could be conceived was that "God" or "The Gods" created
everything.
I would disagree, if something needs a creator in order to exist, then logically God requires a creator himself (...)
Yes, this is true if you are thinking logically about God, especially in today's terms. However the ancients weren't interested in thinking
"logically" about God. They were simply looking for the reason why the world was the way it was. "God" as an answer was satisfying enough for
them; they praised, worshiped, and rarely questioned their God/ God's out of fear generated by the holy men.
As Einstein and Michio Kaku say:
"I don't really believe in the God of the bible and religions, but in the God of nature and harmony; the God you can see in the beauty that is the
universe and everything in it."
There is a lot of suggestion towards intelligent design because of the way the universe works.
I find it somewhat dishonest of you to quote them and equate this somehow with intelligent design.
I wasn't using these quotes to in relation to the idea of intelligent design. I was using them to support the previous point about how certain
academics place their faith in a different kind of God than the God from the scripture. The following statement was meant to be an introduction to a
new point.
The laws of physics, to be created in such a perfect flawless way, in the "randomness" that we are supposed to live in, suggest that
someone may have designed them.
There is no indication that the forces holding everything together and making everything work were created or even had a beginning. Conjectures don't
make truth's my dear Watson.
You are right; simply because something exists doesn't mean it was created or had a beginning. However the point I'm trying to make is that based on
what knowledge we do have, the universe had a beginning. Before it, there was nothing. There are some theories about other existing universes, and
even some that claim the universe never had a beginning, however the Big Bang is what we take for fact.
If no creative force was controlling this beginning, then its mere existence would simply be random; along with all the rules and
guidelines that this existence must follow. For these guidelines to be set up so perfectly tuned is extremely improbable.
Gravity has also been perfectly tuned.
(...) There are other theories out there that make the same predictions, but gravity in the universe works differently than the Einstein model of
gravity, coincidentally, thing's observed that don't seem to work under the Einstein model do work under these newer models(...)
I can't speak for certain, because I haven't heard/seen of these models, however as long as they incorporate measurable laws expressible in
mathematical physics, then they indeed are 'set' to a certain constant that makes everything related behave the way they do. The point here, again,
is that for these laws and constants to be a random act, along with the beginning of the universe, would require this 'randomness' to produce
seemingly impossible odds. It can be theorized as to what would happen if gravity was stronger or weaker, and either way would result in chaos.
Generally speaking, when you think about it, the universe, and us, according to atheists, should be impossible.
Interesting claim considering it's essentially false. This shows a remarkably poor understanding of what atheism is and what it asserts. Atheism
alone says nothing about what reality is, what the universe is, where life came from or how it arose. (...)
Your right in asserting that it was ignorant of me to use the term "atheist" in my point. My point was meant to be directed to people who refuse to
believe in intelligent design.
In all honesty, this is the first time I have ever heard such an explanation about atheism from an atheist(I am assuming); the "atheists" I was
trying to refer to, are the ones who refuse to believe in any kind of creative force or intelligent design theories, regardless of whatever
information is shown. It is a well known fact that many of these "atheists", especially the academics, go through ridiculous measures to scrutinize
and destroy any other academic who even mentions that intelligent design is a possibility, or even something that deserves more a little more study.
It is interesting the way you described a "natural" creative force, as I myself never consider anything to be supernatural; they are simply things
that we do not yet understand, and have no ways of scientifically explaining them.
I do however, find it hard to understand how you seem to be against the idea of intelligent design, however assert that a creative force is a
possibility. If there is a creative force, it has obviously designed nature in order to be compatible for life. In order to design nature, it would
require intelligence.
I've attempted to develop my own theories of a creative "quantum" species that gave rise to reality, no one was really interested though.
Pity really, it was rather interesting I thought.
I would like hear about this theory; I am always interested in subjects such as these.
