Only one percent of the Holocaust claims can be proven - Says Holocaust Scholar and Expert

Jews had the highest murder count! No wait, Slavs were murdered the most! No wait, that can't be right. Aw hell, I lost count after 299,433.

Some of you posting here, really need to take a good hard look in the mirror. You are arguing over millions of people who were murdered. No matter what faith, or religion they practiced. They were still humans.

I doubt any of you have been in a war or seen a mutilated body. Arguing over words. When real people died.

If you want to talk about a real holocaust. Look into how many japanese civilians were killed, by are arial bombing campaigns during world war 2 II.
I think its near a million. Or how about Viet Nam/Cambodia. If anyone has a right to be pissed. It should be the Vietnamese. Our Army carpet bombed whole villages with daisy cutters.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Your arguments basically boil down to if someone owns a kippah, hech cap, or yarmulke and puts it on it automatically makes them experts on the incredibly complex events of the World War I and II and the Holocaust is as patently ridiculous as they come.

Really?



So now you are suggesting that all historians are somehow Zionist jews?

Well, thanks for proving my point, again.

reply to post by neformore


This is probably one of the reasons. And it isn't just the Jewish suffering that is being discussed, the entire Holocaust© that is being discussed.
It are the Jews and their blind supporters that get very emotional about these topics. If they had common sense they wouldn't even bother to discuss it with people that don't share that opinion and those that would like to see a reinvestigation of the Holocaust©.
If you got nothing to hide, why are you all so obstructive and do you put everyone that asks difficult questions in the Nazi/Extreme Right-Wing corner?

[edit on 9-1-2010 by Regenstorm]

Originally posted by Regenstorm
If you got nothing to hide, why are you all so obstructive and do you put everyone that asks difficult questions in the Nazi/Extreme Right-Wing corner?

What a bizarre question.

Why on earth would I have anything "to hide"?

Calculating Pi to 4000 digits is a difficult question.

Arguing over the numbers killed in a genocide isn't asking a difficult question. Its just playing games with figures. The only people truly hung up on the numbers are the deniers. As I said before, even if its "only" one million people..its still a genocide.

Are you telling me that the genocide did not happen?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
And this in a nutshell perfectly describes the litigious Zionist nature; deceased life can be compensated through dollars and cents.

I don’t imagine that such monetary compensations bring back the dead do you Michael? That the deceased can then better enjoy things like the bloom of a rose, the wafting breeze upon their skin, the scent of their wife’s perfume or husband’s cologne, or the laugh of a grandchild they will never meet or a child they will never see again.

I have seen some truly disgusting excuses for crimes against humanity as being justifiable but this perhaps is the lowest of the low.

I don’t think it will be today that you earn that s my mench friend!

Edit to add: Isn't it ironic that when it comes to the cold blooded murder of Americans by Israelis, that bringing it up is just a tried old and pathetic argument in Zionist eyes, but where the Holocaust is concerned as far as the Jews and only the Jews are concerned "we must never forget"

Getting cranky Proty?

Talk about sour grapes.

Paying monetary compensation for causing deaths is about the only thing available as the insurance industry has determined. What do you suggest? Killing an equal number of kind?

It's funny too - the only people who can never forget "We must never forget" are the Jew haters. It's a bloody slogan not a cry to arms fgodssake. Talk about straining to find things to complain about.

After seeing the grotesque arguments on this thread I'm relieved in a way.
I'm starting to see it all more as impotent rage than anything else.

The Internet, particularly conspiracy sites, might be the new outlet for relief of high anxiety, frustration and vitriol for the compulsive racists society produces. Sort of like what porn sites are for the sexually unfulfilled.

Rather than lynching or burning crosses on lawns, the hip tech savvy KKKer of today can achieve subliminal orgasm producing lengthy laboured hate filled speeches directed at target audiences. So much better to damage psyches rather than property and people.

Google is a great facilitator for this new pastime of the emotionally disabled. Just input your key words and somewhere some library dwelling Neo-Nazi has waded through thousands of pages to find just the right nugget of disinfo from an obscure book that supports one's fruity theory of mass conspiracies by their imaginary enemy.

The Disinformation Age has begun. To H*ll with actual history. To H*ll with actual facts. Who needs the truth anyways? Mythology is so much more fulfilling.

Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Your arguments basically boil down to if someone owns a kippah, hech cap, or yarmulke and puts it on it automatically makes them experts on the incredibly complex events of the World War I and II and the Holocaust is as patently ridiculous as they come.

Really?

So now you are suggesting that all historians are somehow Zionist jews?

Well, thanks for proving my point, again.

Nice attempt at deflecting away from the purely Zionist notion that anyone questioning details and the accuracy of history pertaining to the holocaust is an anti-Semite or Holocaust Denier.

That argument does depend on the automatic assumption that Jews and Zionists Know more about it than other non-Jewish, non-Zionist historians and researchers, as it is always the Zionists claiming that any research that does not support their contentions to be flawed, and or purposefully inaccurate.

This is yet another attempt to inflame emotions and stifle the debate by trying to keep it all about the notion that any debate and study that runs contrary to Zionist and Jewish Dogmas on the Holocaust is somehow a orchestrated and deliberate attack upon them, when in reality in most cases its genuinely inquisitive minds searching for a higher and more accurate truth.

But as we have seen again and again in this thread that results in the Zionist and Jews making emotional entreaty after emotional entreaty to try to keep the subject focused on perceived anti-Semitism instead of scholarly discussion aimed at actual events.

They do this with purposeful emotional appeals and denunciations again and again and again to bog down that debate by making it all about Jews and Zionists, and enforced and instilled Jewish and Zionist sympathy that is in essence an appeal to let Jews and Zionists make the Holocaust politically about anything they wish it to be regardless of the facts based on a desire to be rewarded for suffering, and in most cases suffering that did not even occur, and in many cases rewards for people who were not even alive at the time or suffered through it.

I am neither fooled nor intimidated by such amateurship when it comes to attempts at emotional domination and manipulation. Frankly six year old little girls are better at it.

These comments do nothing in fact to foster a quality debate or learning environment but similarly just turning it into a juvenile playground where more mature people must always stop for the little scraped knees and bruised feelings of the immature and foolish along the way, as well as those deliberately acting in that manner to thwart honest and accurate debate.

Thanks for continuing to illustrate how some people prefer to do this instead of engaging in credible debate on the actual subject matter.




[edit on 9/1/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler




Simple question - is everyone who has ever studied the holocaust a jew, or a zionist?

If the answer is no - then how come so many of them draw exactly the same conclusion that the event happened?

Surely you, as an educated person, understand that not just one group of people has studied the events of World War 2?

So how do you account for the similarities and conclusions drawn, after nearly 65 years of study since the end of the war?

reply to post by mmiichael


Sadly what the desperate posting to this thread don’t get is that much information has in fact been shared and imparted to members who as freewill human beings will get to make up their minds about it regardless of your approval or wishes to make their decisions for them.

That some are so desperate to control the debate and regulate the information on it only shows to illustrate that it is they that have the ulterior motives in maintaining a status quo that they do in fact lie, misconstrue, and use various forms of emotional manipulation, intimidation and extortion to try to maintain.

Meanwhile actual fascism is again on the rise in America and Europe and the Middle East in Israel while most people are incapable of even identifying it because the lessons of World War II have been altered to favor this perverted history of fascism is all about Jewish persecution, and the Nazis were all about Jewish persecution.

Zionists in fact develop their power base and justifications for thefts, wars, and crimes against humanity through the notion that previous Jewish persecution entitles them to persecute others moving forward in a best defense is a good offense strategy.

It is nothing but a deliberate attempt to entrench the attitudes of fascism and keep human evolution revolving through destabilizing revolutions that accomplish nothing and mire it in bloodshed, hatred, bigotry, inhumanity and war.

Those who see the truth know the truth, and that is why so many people are so desperate to control and define the truth, not because it’s the truth, but because it maintains the status quo in Jerusalem.

The word Status Quo was actually coined by the Mufti of Jerusalem to describe the official parceling of the city amongst various religious sects laying claim to it.

Its two thousand years of violence over the same old nonsense and the holocaust is just one of the deflections and justifications away from the root causes of that violence.

So much wanton death and suffering and poverty and destruction and negativity that the world is divided and ruled by and through, it’s called order out of chaos.

Your arguments and reasons for arguing lack any common sense or honest integrity, they are simply a desperate attempt to ensure the survival of debilitating dogmas in perpetuity because the serve a chosen few.

The needs of the many must outweigh the needs of the few or the one.

The victim dictum born of the Zionist manipulation of the holocaust is all about emotionally appealing to each and every one of us that if we surrender all rights to fascist governments that they can ensure that the one, that the few will never fall victim to anything.

In reality that keeps making us all victims to an imperfect system that utilizes violence and warfare to maintain not just a status quo, but a might makes right mentality that just creates victims for the victim dictum to capitalize on.

I am not a victim of anything including these pathetic arguments that insist everything must be about the victimized Jews and never about the rest of the victims of the world.

As I have said before this is nothing but an attempt on the Zionists part to not just use the victim dictum to their own selfish advantage but to additionally use it to victimize the rest of humanity, that looses it’s value or rights in these arguments simply because they are not Jewish by using the squeaky wheel gets the grease strategy again and again and again.

It’s as fraudulent as it is sleazy and lame and frankly will just lead to self victimization that will not serve the Jews, Zionists or the rest of humanity that both the Jews and Zionists are so quick to forget, discount and dismiss through their hidden system of Talmudic Law.

The reality is that since most of our recent argument transpired over the Jewish Sabbath no Jew should actually be directly taking a part in it, at least not a real one anyway.

At best you could have a gentile pass you hand written notes regarding what I was saying and pass them hand written notes back to them to interact with me. That is what the Talmud dictates.

The reality is Orthodox and religious Jews don’t even take part in these arguments just politically minded Zionists.

Zionists do this as a political cult, and a power cult and not a religious cult.

The world will never evolve in this fashion, and condemns itself by entertaining such foolishnesses and allowing itself to be ruled by a might makes right mentality and governed by the victim dictum.

The victim dictum born out of the Holocaust which has been grossly distorted for the sake of giving Zionists the ultimate power under the victim dictum system by convincing the world and enforcing the notion that they are the ultimate and supreme victims.

You will never wake up early enough in the morning to win a debate with me Michael, nor do you even try, you just keep employing the squeaky wheel gets the grease victim dictum strategy to try to further an agenda of dominance for self gain.

I know that and so do you, and you are going to have to start paying 10 cents a dance and getting a ticket from the hostess soon.

Thanks.

reply to post by neformore

So how do you account for the similarities and conclusions drawn, after nearly 65 years of study since the end of the war?

That's very simple my friend, the same way the mainstream news media shapes often false and erroneous versions of current events.

They do it through controlling the flow of information and bottlenecking the access points to information and making it hard to come by all information.

Information is the ultimate power friend. It is why the powerful make ever attempt to secure the sources of information and then control what portions of that information are made available to the public and scholars.

Most scholars are going to go to the same old readily and available sources of information. They will not easily get to the sources of all the information.

Give the people only half the pieces to the puzzle and it makes the same picture time and time again.

This is no mystery and as a member of ATS and a learned and reasoned individual I am sure you understand not only how logical that is but why it behooves people in power.

What are the UFO forums all about? People who believe information is being purposefully withheld.

What are the 9-11 forums all about? People who believe information is being purposefully withheld.

What is insider trading on Wall Street? People who purposefully withhold information for profit, by limiting who knows the truth on a stock, and it happens all the time.

You can’t get from point A to point B if you don’t know the roads, but you can’t especially get there if you don’t even know where it is you are starting from let alone as to where you are going.

Information is the most valuable asset in the world when it comes to controlling other human beings.

No offense my friend and I mean this most respectfully but I believe your own emotions on this subject truly cloud your objectivity.

Thanks.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
No offense my friend and I mean this most respectfully but I believe your own emotions on this subject truly cloud your objectivity.

Just out of curiosity - what emotions would those be?

Please, do enlighten me.

Originally posted by neformore
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Simple question - is everyone who has ever studied the holocaust a jew, or a zionist?

If the answer is no - then how come so many of them draw exactly the same conclusion that the event happened?

Surely you, as an educated person, understand that not just one group of people has studied the events of World War 2?

So how do you account for the similarities and conclusions drawn, after nearly 65 years of study since the end of the war?

If the answer is no - then how come so many of them draw exactly the same conclusion that the event happened?

One thing you DO really know about, is how to twist words around. Nice going!

I have read every comment in this thread, and I don't think anyone has stated the event did not happen.

If anything, most people are pointing out that, millions of people died, not just Jews, and that that 6 million figure has been floating around for about 20 years before WWII, and that that 6 million number comes from a Jewish prophecy that the Jewish messiah could not come before 6 million died.

A few pages back in this thread, I had a whole page of references of downward revisions of the numbers coming from historians and journalists of all different nationalities INCLUDING JEWISH historians, who presumably had access to historical documents.

Why no comments on that?

Are they lying, or do you have access to documents that support your point of view?

I think it's because you might have to admit maybe you are wrong, and you let emotionalism drive your arguments, same as mmiichael.

You guys are either both being intellectually dishonest, or you have some other motive entirely.

The word *stiff - necked* comes to mind.

reply to post by sezsue


Hello. Do not want to get into another futile heated discussion, just want to know where this

..... and that that 6 million number comes from a Jewish prophecy that the Jewish messiah could not come before 6 million died.

comes from. Being Jewish myself, never seen this.
Thank you in advance.

Originally posted by mmiichael

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

The Disinformation Age has begun. To H*ll with actual history. To H*ll with actual facts. Who needs the truth anyways? Mythology is so much more fulfilling.

******************************************************************

Thanks for making me laugh, best one I had all day, cause you know what?

That phrase describes YOU a heck of a lot more than ProtoplasmicTraveler.

[edit on 9-1-2010 by sezsue]

Originally posted by sezsue
A few pages back in this thread, I had a whole page of references of downward revisions of the numbers coming from historians and journalists of all different nationalities INCLUDING JEWISH historians, who presumably had access to historical documents.

Why no comments on that?

I think you missed the part above where I said

Originally posted by neformore
Arguing over the numbers killed in a genocide isn't asking a difficult question. Its just playing games with figures. The only people truly hung up on the numbers are the deniers. As I said before, even if its "only" one million people..its still a genocide.

This is interesting

I think it's because you might have to admit maybe you are wrong, and you let emotionalism drive your arguments, same as mmiichael.

Again, I ask - what emotions would those be?

And this...

You guys are either both being intellectually dishonest, or you have some other motive entirely.

Well thats just bizarre. Please, do elaborate on what motives you think I may have here. I'm massively intrigued.

[edit on 9/1/10 by neformore]

Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
No offense my friend and I mean this most respectfully but I believe your own emotions on this subject truly cloud your objectivity.

Just out of curiosity - what emotions would those be?

Please, do enlighten me.

I am no psychologist friend, but they would likely be the emotions that are causing even a highly respected moderator of ATS to start bogging down a thread with minimal and off topic posts that have more to do with other members in their persons than the subject matter.

I will concede it’s a heated debate on perhaps one of the most if not the most emotionally contentious issues there are but lets try to keep the discussion focused on historical events and topical subject matters and not our individual perspectives of one another.

The thread is about how accurate the claims are regarding the holocaust. While it is somewhat relevant always to question political and financial motives in regards to any issue, those in and of themselves do not negate the underlying and base assertions and subject matter that some historically generally accepted myths and dogmas about the holocaust are false.

I think a lot of posters on both sides of the issues have tried to contribute additional information and sources, so why don’t we let the thread get back on track and discuss why individual claims and their sources are acceptable or not acceptable to one poster or another instead of discussing just the posters and their motivations and using broad stroked vague references as to why they should or not should be accepted.

Thanks!

reply to post by neformore


No, the people who are really hung up on the numbers, are the ones who get mad when people question them.

And you know what? I'm happy to let you have your opinion, because it doesn't seem to me that you honestly want to find out what happened, you just want to toe the party line.

All I have seen from you and others like you, are people who don't want to have an open and honest debate. You don't back your words up with facts, your words are just your opinion.

No, you want to act like people who question it are only doing it because they HATE the Jews, and just want to see them finished off.

Nothing anyone could say, and no information, DOCUMENTED by historians, would change your mind, because you don't want to hear it.

You dont WANT to change your mind.

In fact, I responded on another thread earlier today showing evidence that before WWII the German people were being beaten down by the terms of the Versailles treaty. (Hitler then vs Hitler now, page 11)

It's pretty clear that international Jews were full of revenge and vowing to systematically wipe the German nation off the face of the earth through a boycott, which is what they said IN THEIR OWN WORDS.

In fact, a German Jewish editor of a newspaper sent a telegram to one of the big Jewish leaders at the time asking them to stop doing what they were doing, stating they didn't speak for the German Jews and that in fact, they were causing a dangerous situation with their agitating.

And guess what, you were commenting in that thread as well, and you ignored that post also. No one tried to dispute that information either, last I looked. Wonder why?

You know, there was a lot more honesty coming out of the people directly involved in the situation than there is from this generation.

However, this generation is still being manipulated by the same people as the last time.

reply to post by neformore


I have serious questions concerning several events. I don't want to be immoral but if I was a Nazi and I would want to wipe out an entire believe/race I would do it very differently and more economical.
This video raises some questions, just like the book I recently purchased.

The book Night by Elie Wiesel is about his personal experience of the Holocaust. It really raised my eyebrows, because something crucial is missing. No Gas-chambers, according to Elie Wiesel people were thrown alive into the fire. At some point he says that he would rather throw himself into the electric fence instead of being burned alive.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


I had never heard that either. I read it in an earlier post. When I tried to find out specifically who stated that or where it came from, all I could find out is that it apparently comes from the Cabbalistic mindset, so discount that if you will.

However, it is well documented that the number of 6 million was already being used in many statements during the first world war.

Thanks for asking.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I am no psychologist friend, but they would likely be the emotions that are causing even a highly respected moderator of ATS to start bogging down a thread with minimal and off topic posts that have more to do with other members in their persons than the subject matter.

Well its a nice way of trying to play the issue - I'll give you that.

I don't think I've taken the thread off topic, in fact I think I've raised some valid points but hey - thats your opinion and you're welcome to it.

C'est la vie eh?

OK...so...lets go back to basics and look at the evidence directly relating to the events as of 3rd September 1945 shall we?

At that time there were

Survivors of the event.
Witnesses to the event.
The people who liberated the camps.
The physical evidence of the camps themselves - or what remained of them at the time of liberation.

So - lets be clear on this - at the basic level we're quite happy that the event happened - right?