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Only one percent of the Holocaust claims can be proven - Says Holocaust Scholar and Expert

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posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 06:39 PM
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Originally posted by sezsue
135,000 to 140,000 Source: This is an estimate based on documents held by the International Tracing Service of the Red Cross.


If you had bothered to read this thread you would have already seen

"the Red Cross said "As well as in personal correspondence, the ICRC has also addressed this misrepresentation by several other means. In 1975, the ICRC wrote to the Board of Deputies of British Jews in London regarding Harwood's citations, stating:

The figures cited by the author of the booklet are based upon statistics falsely attributed to us, evidently for the purpose of giving them credibility, despite the fact that we never publish information of this kind."
—Françoise Perret , Comité International de la Croix-Rouge, to Jacob Gerwitz, August 22, 1975. "




posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 06:53 PM
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I was under the impression that the victims were processed by adding machines? I always thought the 6 million figure was indisputable as there are records.
Where are these records, were they destroyed or are they available?



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 07:18 PM
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Originally posted by dereks

Originally posted by sezsue
135,000 to 140,000 Source: This is an estimate based on documents held by the International Tracing Service of the Red Cross.


If you had bothered to read this thread you would have already seen

"the Red Cross said "As well as in personal correspondence, the ICRC has also addressed this misrepresentation by several other means. In 1975, the ICRC wrote to the Board of Deputies of British Jews in London regarding Harwood's citations, stating:

The figures cited by the author of the booklet are based upon statistics falsely attributed to us, evidently for the purpose of giving them credibility, despite the fact that we never publish information of this kind."
—Françoise Perret , Comité International de la Croix-Rouge, to Jacob Gerwitz, August 22, 1975. "


Why is it that some people will pull one statement out of a whole list to dispute?

I have read every single comment on this thread, AND gone to and read most of the links! Because I have an open mind and want to learn.

I am not afraid to do that because I am not committed to one point of view and can change my opinion when the facts are there to support a different way thinking.

However, I don't think you have done yourself, what you have accused me of NOT doing, or else you would not have missed the fact that these documents from the ICRC were released from the archives and made available to scholars in 1996, as far as I can tell.

As you could have seen if you would have read this:




The estimate of 135,500 is roughly corroborated by the "Auschwitz death books." The death books themselves are wartime German camp records, which were captured by the Soviets towards the end of the war, and hidden in Soviet achieves, until released to the Red Cross in 1989.

The death books consist of 46 volumes which document each death at Auschwitz (each death certificate consists of the deceased person's full name, profession and religion, date and place of birth, pre-Auschwitz residence, parents' names, time of death, and cause of death as determined by a camp physician). The records for the most important years, 1942 and 1943, are almost complete (there are also a few volumes for the year 1941, but none for the year 1944 or January 1945 (when Auschwitz was evacuated)).

The Auschwitz death books contain the death certificates of some 69,000 individuals, of whom about 30,000 were listed as Jews. You may view various entries in the Auschwitz Death Books by clicking on the following links to the Auschwitz museum:

Using all available wartime records from the various camps it has been estimated that between 400,000 and 500,000 people died in the German concentration camp system (from all causes).


According to the above, at one point in time, you could even link to the Auschwitz museum and take a look at the actual death books themselves.
I did not check to see if the opportunity to see them is still available.

By the way, did you ever stop to think that maybe Françoise Perret made that statement because he was under pressure to deny it by the Board of Deputies of British Jews in London?

The above quote stated this information was corroborated by death camp books that came from the Soviet archives hidden and not given to the ICRC until 1989.

Maybe Francoise Perret could deny those numbers came from them, but the death camp records that came from the Soviet archives totaled 46 books, and basically reflect the same numbers.

Now that we have looked at that a bit further, no comments about the rest of the list?



edited to change ICRC archive release date to 1996
everything else remains the same

[edit on 7-1-2010 by sezsue]



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 07:35 PM
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Originally posted by Plomp
I was under the impression that the victims were processed by adding machines? I always thought the 6 million figure was indisputable as there are records.
Where are these records, were they destroyed or are they available?


It is true that IBM developed some of the first primitive computing systems to ever be used for the Nazi Regime to catalog and account for its slave labor population but many of those records remain in place in archives and in places like Auschwitz were Zionists and the Catholic Church still fight for a pecking order to control them.

Of course some of the records were destroyed as a result of bombardment and others may have been deliberately destroyed by Axis forces or agents but the truth is that there has never been a real accounting of the archived documents.

The Soviets actually were the first on the scene in the capitol and carried a lot of things off back to Moscow to use in their own cold war propaganda efforts and still posses many of them. The Cold War Rule was that much of what the Soviets were reporting was to be discounted as exaggerated and aimed towards governing the East German Communist State.

The Soviets actually reconstructed parts of camps like Auschwitz and others and some forensic archeologists believe that they did so with an eye to altering how the camps worked and functioned and for what purposes.

They found much higher concentrations of residual Xyclon-B in delousing rooms and hardly any at all in the remodeled gas chambers.

To actually do a real accounting one would have to travel throughout Europe and Russia to try to track down all the places the various records ended up and wrestle with Jewish and Catholic organizations as well as governments.

As the thread has displayed, the six million figure is a guesstimate of the Jews in Europe that started appearing in the Propaganda in America back in the 1920’s and in large part was all part of a drive to get Jews to emigrate to Palestine and to fund Zionist groups in Palestine.



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 07:38 PM
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I know some people are skeptical over this situation, which, for me, I don't understand. But, for me, I had family who went through those times. They lost loved ones in those death camps, they've seen them. And I'll believe their word and testimony, over any gullible conspiracy theorist any day.



[edit on 7-1-2010 by Alesanjin]



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 08:01 PM
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Of equal interest, surely, are the claims made in US newspapers back in 1919

that 'six million jews have died/are dying/will die ' ......


' if you don't give give money NOW ' !



Yes, it is interesting, that six million figure


Interesting that it would be used TWICE


It raked in untold millions BOTH times


So it works !


Especially once the jewish community, through its incredibly disproportionate presence within European and US governments and the media

were able to have it passed into LAW


that no-one may even QUESTION the RECURRING 'six million' claims


those lucrative claims

those powerful claims


which ... the questioning of same being OUTLAWED

were then written into 'history'



LOL



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 08:06 PM
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Originally posted by neformore
reply to post by queenannie38
 


Please

Explain this to me

Thanks


explain how?
what does this telegram have to do with what i said about Stalin in the post you're referring to?


i'm not sure what you mean



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 08:10 PM
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Yes, and while we're demanding people explain themselves to us


how about one or more of you explaining HOW and WHY the jewish community (backed by the media it 96% owns -- alongside the screened-media, publishing, text book industry, etc.)

... chose the SAME '6 million' figure


in WW1 AND WW2


after which they were handed Palestine, of course


... the rest being 'history', lol



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 08:12 PM
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After five minutes Hertzl interrupted Rothschild, who was not used to such bluntness. "You don't know what it is all about. Let me explain it to you first. A colony is a small state; a state is a big colony. You want a small state; I want to build a big colony."

Once more, as so many times in the past, he unfolded his plan for consolidating the Turkish national debt in return for a Jewish vassal state in Palestine. He told Rothschild he did not have to make up his mind immediately. He asked only for Rothschild's conditional agreement. Only in the case of success would Rothschild be asked to place himself at the head of the movement, at which time he, Hertzl, would voluntarily withdraw. If it proved impossible to conclude a transaction with the Turks, there would be no movement and no need for his leadership and support.

Rothschild listened attentively, at times with surprise. Occasionally Hertzl thought he even detected admiration in the Baron's eyes. But he was wrong. Rothschild quickly made clear that he wanted nothing to do with the project. His reasoning was simple; it echoed an astute world wise banker's practical concerns, not a naive politicians vision. "It would be impossible to control the influx of the masses into Palestine," he said. "The first to arrive would be a hundred fifty thousand schnorrers (beggars). They would have to be fed, presumably by me. I don't feel up to that-but perhaps you do!" he added sarcastically.

A battle of words ensued for about two hours. But Rothschild was not convinced of the feasibility of Hertzl's plan of action. Twice he repeated a proverb: Il ne faut pas avoir les yeux plus gros que le ventre (It does not do to have eyes bigger than one's stomach). When Rothschild said that there would be no curbing of the masses, one aide said darkly, "Yes, just what happened at Chodinko," referring to a plain outside Moscow where a frightened mass of Jewish refugees from a czarist pogrom had recently suffered great hardship.

"You were the keystone of the entire combination," Hertzl said bitterly as he turned to leave. "If you refuse, everything I have fashioned so far will collapse. I shall then be obliged to do it in a different way. I shall start a mass agitation. "And," he threatened, "that way it will be even harder to keep the masses under control. I was going to turn the direction of the entire project over to you... You think it would be a disaster to operate with such great masses. Consider whether the misfortune would not be greater if your refusal forces me to set the masses in motion by uncontrollable agitation."

As necessity is the mother of invention, was it possible that these very words, uttered by Hertzl, gave birth to the necessity of the Holocaust in the mind of Baron Edmond de Rothschild on that innocent Paris summer day? Did the plan continue to unfold amidst the ensuing incessant correspondence that occurred between the Rothschild cousins on a daily basis?

Hertzl eventually made good on his threat and unleashed a flood of immigration out of the Russian Soviet East into Europe and England all the while pressuring the House of Rothschild’s various branches.


On February 14, 1910, Churchill, the "young man in a hurry", was appointed home secretary. He was merely thirty-five. Among his responsibilities were national security, England's police force, law and order, and immigration.

In 1911, after the Agadir incident he would become First Lord of the Admiralty, where he would commit the Royal Navy to oil. Ten years later diplomats from Whitehall would quietly divide up the Middle East in a muffled version of their nineteenth-century scramble for African possessions. France would get Syria and Lebanon; Persia (Iran) would come under "British protection"; and Mesopotamia (Iraq) and Palestine came within Britain's sphere of influence, providing the Empire with a direct overland route between imperial troops in Egypt and the oil rich Persian Gulf region.

With the oil regions secured, the next task was insuring that it would remain that way. Under the guise of a Jewish homeland, the British would establish a military-oriented security state loyal to the West. This colony would be the keystone of the entire Middle East security system. The very survival of this colony, however, was potentially threatened by the uncontrolled influx of massive European Jewish immigration into the region. Such ethnic calamity would threaten the entire Middle East energy supply. Only by eliminating the reservoir of potential immigrants could the integrity of the colony be preserved. Once a pre-determined immigration quota was satisfied, strict laws would be put into place sealing any further admission into the small land. Once these laws were in place, a great operation would be put into motion to exterminate the remaining potential immigrants. This operation would be known as the Holocaust.

Late in 1920, Churchill told Lloyd George that he wanted to move to another cabinet post. On February 14, 1921, Churchill was appointed Colonial Secretary. When he took over the Colonial Office, the Balfour declaration was part of his legacy. The declaration, promulgated in 1917 when Arthur Balfour was foreign secretary, was actually formulated by the Rothschilds for the Rothschilds. The text was prepared by Leo Amery, assistant secretary to the War Cabinet. Amery worked under the Rothschild frontman, Lord Milner, who was a member of the inner War Cabinet. The declaration was addressed to Natty Rothschild's son, Walter. It proclaimed that the British government favored "the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of that object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine."

Winston Churchill's commitment to the Rothschild-sponsored Jewish state in Palestine was "absolute". He understood the security role it would play in the emerging oil region. As Colonial secretary he was in a position to oversee the most important aspect to the project- immigration. The problem would be more complicated than controlling the pace and numbers of people entering the colony. Quality immigrants would be a crucial concern, hence strict discrimination, would be a guiding force in the immigration process.

On May 31, 1921, Churchill reported to the cabinet of Arab complaints and the "current accounts of the inferior quality of recent Jewish immigrants." More than anything else it was the "quality" issue surrounding Jewish immigration into Palestine that would determine the necessity of the Holocaust. Those concerned with the success of the colonization process could stem the tides, but they couldn't change the masses of negative human material confronting them.

Within the Jewish community, the two groups which gave the Rothschilds most concern, according to Ferguson, were nouveaux riches -Jewish bankers and businessmen who had made their fortune more recently than the Rothschilds-and, perhaps more important, Ostjuden: the much more numerous Jews of Eastern Europe (principally though not exclusively from the Russian empire), 2.5 million of whom migrated westwards after the pogroms sparked off by the assassination of Alexander II in 1881 and the new discriminatory laws introduced the following year. The new poor were at least as great a source of embarrassment as the nouveaux riches. Forwarding a letter on the subject of German anti-Semitism, Natty told Disraeli in 1880 regarding the causes of Jewish persecution:

"There are also a great many other reasons…among them the constant influx of Polish Russian and Roumanian Jews who arrive in a state of starvation and are socialists until they become rich."

According to this revealing statement we can see that poor Jews, rich Jews, and all the Jews in between were a source of concern to the Rothschilds. As socialism would be the tool by which the super rich would control the masses, Jews active in independent socialism, would be obstacles to this scheme. In short, the elimination of the European Jewish community was necessary for a variety of reasons.

During the debate of the Alien Act of 1905, Natty Rothschild argued that such legislation "would certainly affect deserving and hard-working men, whose impecunious position on their arrival would be no criterion of their incapacity to attain independence." His son Walter echoed this view." Great Britain," he argued, "should be the refuge for the oppressed and unjustly ill-treated people of other nations so long as they were decent and hard-working."

The Rothschilds could not lend their sympathy to those immigrants who were not "deserving, decent or hard-working". The undeserving, indecent, and lazy people would be obstacles to all future Rothschild schemes. Whether it was the establishment of a Jewish military colony in Palestine, or the United States of Europe, there was no room for masses of miserably poor, unproductive "useless eaters", with strange customs and behavior designed to separate, not assimilate. The elimination of the Jews of Europe was essential to the success of the New World Order. The Rothschildian operation known today as the Holocaust, would be carried out from the top down with utter stealth, employing all of the experience, agencies and connections at the disposal of the vast banking empire. Employing the talents and efforts of frontmen like Churchill, Hitler, Pacelli (Pius XII), Roosevelt and Stalin, these feigned axis-allied-neutral camps, would all be invisibly linked


Hidden Mysteries

Some believe Rothschild had Hetzl killed to hijack the Zionist movement and take it over from within. There are many things that are simply not discussed from this period.



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 08:17 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
It is true that IBM developed some of the first primitive computing systems to ever be used for the Nazi Regime to catalog and account for its slave labor population but many of those records remain in place in archives and in places like Auschwitz were Zionists and the Catholic Church still fight for a pecking order to control them.

The Soviets actually were the first on the scene in the capitol and carried a lot of things off back to Moscow to use in their own cold war propaganda efforts and still posses many of them. The Cold War Rule was that much of what the Soviets were reporting was to be discounted as exaggerated and aimed towards governing the East German Communist State.

To actually do a real accounting one would have to travel throughout Europe and Russia to try to track down all the places the various records ended up and wrestle with Jewish and Catholic organizations as well as governments.

As the thread has displayed, the six million figure is a guesstimate of the Jews in Europe that started appearing in the Propaganda in America back in the 1920’s and in large part was all part of a drive to get Jews to emigrate to Palestine and to fund Zionist groups in Palestine.


This is of course malign propaganda and data mining to give the impression the Holocaust Denial has any legitimate basis. IBM's roots and material from the 20s are completely irrelevant to and typical of the perversion of researching from certain sources. Can you say "Neo-Nazi"?

The number 6 million is an estimate based cumulatively on numerous indpendent sources, Nazi documents, occupied country governments, consistent accounts, trial testimonies, etc.

Were there to be no surviving records of Concentration Camp extermination and only guesswork the number would not change, possibly be higher.

In typical deflection attempts you fail to acknowledge millions of deaths for which no formal records were made. Nazis supervised regional exterminations at hundreds of previously undocumented siteswhich are still being uncovered and corroborated by local witnesses.

If there was ever an attempt to inflate the 6 million figure these new findings could be incorporated into the ongoing historical record.


www.cleveland.com...

Less known is the "Holocaust by Bullets," in which over 2 million Jews were gunned down in towns and villages across Ukraine, Belarus and Russia. Their part in the Nazis' Final Solution has been under-researched, their bodies left unidentified in unmarked mass graves.

Begun after Germany invaded the Soviet Union in June 1941, the slaughter by bullets was the opening phase of what became the Nazis' Final Solution with its factories of death operating in Auschwitz and other camps, all in Nazi-occupied Poland.

women, children and elders were marched or carted in from neighboring towns to be shot, burned to death or buried alive by German troops, Romanian forces, squads of local Ukrainian collaborators and local ethnic German volunteers.

Even then, it was methodical, Desbois' research shows. First, Germans would arrive in a town or village and gather intelligence on how best to transport the victims to extermination sites, where to execute them and how to dispose of their bodies.

"It was done as systematically as it was done elsewhere," said John Paul Himka, an expert on the Holocaust and Ukraine at the University of Alberta in Canada, who is not connected to Desbois' work. "You can read as they're figuring out best way to do this, the best way to shoot ... it's absolutely systematic, no accident here."

Desbois' interviews and grave-hunting tie in to millions of pages of Soviet archives.



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 08:25 PM
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Originally posted by Dock9
... the rest being 'history', lol


and prophecy, for many!

hhhmmmmmm.....

i've got to get a look at the book that was mentioned earlier, in regard to the Hebrew prophecy and/or belief about regaining Israel after 6 million were lost.


try and try again

:shk:

now i'm really going to be considered a Nazi

Nazi = not see

??



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 08:28 PM
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reply to post by mmiichael
 


nevermind it was already covered.

[edit on 7-1-2010 by DeathShield]



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 08:37 PM
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reply to post by mmiichael
 





The number 6 million is an estimate based cumulatively on numerous indpendent sources, Nazi documents, occupied country governments, consistent accounts, trial testimonies, etc.

Were there to be no surviving records of Concentration Camp extermination and only guesswork the number would not change, possibly be higher.



Yep my friend just what I said too a guesstimate! Except I didn't use any coined buzzwords or emotional sensationalism in saying it, isn’t it funny how two people can be saying entirely the same thing but using entirely different methods to illustrate entirely different points.

Proto-Facts and nothing but the facts.

Mmichael-emotion and indignation and nothing but hyperbole

Proto-I think we are making some progress and getting closer to the truth of these things

Mmichael-(From the Mummy Movie) YOUUUU MUST NOT REEEAD FROM THE BOOOOOK!

You know Michael business has been improving and I have a little extra money to invest, is it Maalox, Pepto-Bismol or Alka-Seltzer that keeps you going?

Help a brother out would you?



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 08:54 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Yep my friend just what I said too a guesstimate! Except I didn't use any coined buzzwords or emotional sensationalism in saying it, isn’t it funny how two people can be saying entirely the same thing but using entirely different methods to illustrate entirely different points.

Proto-Facts and nothing but the facts.

Mmichael-emotion and indignation and nothing but hyperbole

Proto-I think we are making some progress and getting closer to the truth of these things

Mmichael-(From the Mummy Movie) YOUUUU MUST NOT REEEAD FROM THE BOOOOOK!

You know Michael business has been improving and I have a little extra money to invest, is it Maalox, Pepto-Bismol or Alka-Seltzer that keeps you going?

Help a brother out would you?


Proty,

You always have the option of saying nothing when you have no relevant information to provide. Instead, at every opportunity you drag out the same magic bag of slimy tricks. Take one factoid from somewhere, stir in an outrageous distortion, add a few implied connections, sprinkle with invented data - and you have the thousandth variant of the singular message.

Jews lie, Jews control, Jews provoke, Jews are responsible for every act of violence, abuse, economic disparity - past, present, and future.

It's always couched in charming banter and affectation of innocent inquiry.
It may impress 12 year olds cruising through or of equal intellect.

It insults anyone with any real understanding of history and human affairs. It reflects badly on the source. It raises real questions of how people can become so twisted.



[edit on 7-1-2010 by mmiichael]



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 09:11 PM
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reply to post by mmiichael
 





It insults anyone with any real understanding of history and human affairs. It reflects badly on the source. It raises real questions of how people can become so twisted.


I thought it was Maalox too but you know it pays to ask, thanks for clearing that up Michael you are the best.

The fact of the matter is that there are many inconvenient truths hidden from the people of the world in large part just to enrich a few corporate dynasties and oligarchs and for them to retain control over vast monopolies of wealth and resources even if it means retarding human evolution in that process.

They are skilled and effective manipulators who know how to exploit people’s passions regarding things like nationality and religion, color and sex and knowing full well the propensity and likelihood of each so affected individual to act by responding in a certain manner and way.

It’s a real pox on humanity, there are days I wish I hadn’t taught the little buggers so well, but hey Michael pick up the tab for dinner and I will talk about and on any subject you want.

Life is really too short for all the acrimony and animosity and its counterproductive and self defeating.

The thing that truly amazes me is the level of vim and vitriol as if I was Hitler, Churchill, Roosevelt, Stalin or Mussolini, Rothschild and or Rockefeller.

These dogmas you insist on peddling to the extent of defamation are just that, dogmas. Whether you actually believe them or not or simply will pander them at any and all costs is neither here nor there.

People have a right to discuss things, to search and question, to look for more information to look for better information.

If you want to upgrade the quality of your life you must first learn to upgrade the quality of your questions.

Of course that’s pretty hard to do when people don’t want you to question.

The reality is that they don’t want you to upgrade the quality of your life.

The sad thing is with one trick pony’s is while they are really entertaining for kids, once you have seen the show a couple of times they cease being entertaining.

After a while that pony just becomes a liability, it eats, it evacuates, it eats and it evacuates some more, and if you don’t have a use for that manure well, you just don’t really need that pony at all, it really is time for the pony to learn some new tricks Michael, I think you know what I mean.

Love you! Mean it!



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 09:54 PM
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I do not know why such a figure would have to be estimated since there must have been records of these individuals. We're only going back 70 years here, not 700. However, since most of us do not have these records at our disposal (and probably never will), the key to determining how many Jews died during the Holocaust is by studying the population figures. Additionally, just from a common sense perspective, it is rather unrealistic to believe that 100% of all Jewish deaths at that time can be attributed to genocide.

For example, you can examine the world Jewish population and the entire world population on the following links:

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...
www.census.gov...

From 1882 until 1939 (before Holocaust), the Jewish population increased from 7.8 million to 16.7 million (+114%). During the same time period, the world population grew from about 1.4 billion to 2.3 billion (+64%).

From 1948 until 2008 (after Holocaust), the Jewish population increased from 11.5 million to 13.3 million (+16%). During the same time period, the world population increased from 2.5 billion to 6.7 billion (+168%).

From 1882 until 1937, Jewish population growth was vibrant and was almost double the world population growth rate.

From 1948 until 2008, Jewish population growth declined to the point where it is only approximately one tenth of the world population growth rate.

How could there be such an astonishing population growth rate for Jews (twice the world average) at a time when infant mortality was higher and medical treatment was much less advanced than it has been the last sixty years? Why is there such a low population increase for the past sixty years (one tenth the world average)?

Even a country like the United States, which has a lower than average population rate increase, went from 150 million to 300 million (+100%) in the past sixty years. Why do the Jews have such a low population rate increase at a time when infant morality rates are lower and people are living longer due to medical advancements?

One conclusion which could explain why the Jewish population numbers do not jive and are extremely off kilter with the rest of the world's numbers is the estimate of 16.7 million Jews during 1939 may be inflated.

For the sake of argument, let's remove six million from the 16.7 million estimate and recalculate the rate. Now you have an increase of 37% for the Jewish population from 1882-1939, which is 27% less than the world rate increase.

Let's do the same for the 11.5 million and recalculate. Now you have an increase of 142% for the Jewish population for the last sixty years, which is 26% less than the world rate increase.



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 09:55 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
The sad thing is with one trick pony’s is while they are really entertaining for kids, once you have seen the show a couple of times they cease being entertaining.

After a while that pony just becomes a liability, it eats, it evacuates, it eats and it evacuates some more, and if you don’t have a use for that manure well, you just don’t really need that pony at all, it really is time for the pony to learn some new tricks Michael, I think you know what I mean.

Love you! Mean it!


Exactly my point Proty, which you missed completely.

Picking thorough the rubble of historical information to push an agenda is not discussion of sharing information. When it involves willful distortion and advancing disinformation it should to be confronted.

I'm not a cop looking for traffic violations. But I do get annoyed when I see false information that is corrected - and then it gets repeated over and over again. It defeats the whole learning process.

I'm becoming less annoyed than I once was at all the BS that I see floating around here. There really little attempt to advance knowledge on threads like this. I'm starting to think might even be a good thing to have the ever popular lies trotted out and swapped back and forth.

We have an open source zoo where we can watch the truly frustrated and hate-driven do their worst. Looking at their sham information sources and flaky expertise it is evident all they have to shoot are blanks.

And maybe that tells us a lot about the type of people they really are.



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 10:20 PM
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Please please let's not forget that the Holocaust has always been Israel's Ace-In-The-Hole whenever they have been criticized for their many atrocities against the Palestinians, not to mention the rest of the world. If you dare to raise your voice against them over any of their actions then they always throw the supposed Holocaust in your face and accuse you of Anti-Semitism. But the fact remains that the Jews were not the only people to be rounded up by Hitler's Brown Shirts and sent to the camps. They rounded up intellectuals of all persuasions, plus the Gypsies and some Homosexuals that they couldn't screw into obedience to their New World Order. I have often wondered if it wasn't the fact that so many of the Jews were wealthy and very educated and not the least likely to support Hitler's reinvention of the world-conquering Germanic state that was behind so many of them being jailed and not the desire to ad hoc persecute them over their religious choices. I think that if you review Hitler's speeches, you see that he denigrates the Jews for not being loyal to Germany, not for believing that they are somehow divinely privilaged. I think that Hitler's problem with the Jews was that he believed that they held no loyalty to his Corporate-State and it's attempt to take over the world.

So, yeah, to sum it all up, it is my belief that much of the Holocaust is based upon lies and exagerations. I have found little evidence to prove that Hitler persecuted these people strictly upon their religious affiliation.
There is a mountain of evidence that the Jews have exagerated their claims of persecution in order to justify a "favored nation" status in the world.



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 10:29 PM
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reply to post by mmiichael
 


Michael I don’t know if you have ever seen the Tom Clancy Movie “Clear and Present Danger” based on his popular Dr. Jack Ryan character of “Red October” fame, but in the movie the President of the United States one morning awakes to find out one of his old friends has been murdered at sea aboard his yacht by Assassins from a Columbian Cocaine Cartel.

After the CIA does a little checking they have the unpleasant task of informing the President his friend was actually up to his eyeballs in money laundering and had double crossed the cartels for hundreds of millions of dollars. They told the President along with the FBI and DEA Heads that they doubted that they could keep that part from getting to the press.

The President was panicked and said “Oh no this could ruin me should I try to play down my friendship with him?”

Jack Ryan said “No, in fact you should play it up, and say we weren’t just friends, but life long friends”. To get out in front of the story, and to make the President seem like he was a victim that had nothing to hide, by not trying to hide anything and create suspicion.

That is what the Intelligence Agencies of the world do Michael, they concoct stories, and how to sell stories, and it’s never ever about the truth.

The truth is simply an impediment to exploiting circumstances and situations for maximum gain.

The sources and things you imagine being the truth, which you believe to be the truth, have in fact been manufactured for you. Not only do you believe them to be true, but the people who invented them, distorted them, misstated them for some political and economic advantage want you to believe that they are true too.

They do teach you that it’s ‘right’ to believe what they tell you, that it’s ‘wrong’ to question it, and that only ‘bad’ or ‘crazy’ people would, and that ‘good’ people, should in fact ‘expose’ and ‘confront’ those bad and crazy people.

The fact that the system does work that way, and it does work that way, were validation, absolution and peer pressure are all employed to stifle discussion and questions and silence dissent should be suspicious for anyone.

Amazingly its not and there are those people who swallow the ‘official’ stories, hook line and sinker, like WMD in Iraq. The U.N.’s WMD author that led to the war in Iraq wasn’t just wrong, but Jack McGeorge was also a Bi-Sexual Sadist and Master in the BDSM Lifestyle and President of the Black Rose Society.

In short the guy was almost, well gosh darn I hate to admit he was as twisted as me.

It’s never about the truth Michael, it’s about selling the lie; it’s about the world being run by exceptionally good liars!

A world full of gullible people that either love being lied to or don’t mind in exchange for absolution, validation and acceptance by their peers.

In many arenas your ‘official’ sources are the mainstream view, and you can enjoy that majority status in selling them and sharing them, and effectively use the peer pressure and emotional domination tactics to get that lone dissenter to shut up and button up and sit down and be quiet and go along with it.

Yet here on ATS you aren’t running with the mainstream herd but the alternative herd. The same tactics and principles don’t apply and they just don’t make for compelling or reasoned arguments.

It’s why you have so little success peddling them. If people really wanted to hear that same old same old nonsense that they sense or outright know are lies and driving the world to the brink of war and chaos they would watch ABC and blog on CNN.

They don’t they are here searching for hidden answers, for additional knowledge and sources, and like minded people.

You have your own little crew, I won’t go so far as to say it’s an organized one or a paid one, but you do have those few other posters who are right in lockstep with you. They aren’t numerous enough to effectively use the peer pressure and the emotional intimidation tactics that they often try to employ. Many of them are considered comic relief here on ATS by a number of posters because they are like broken records that are utterly incapable of thinking outside of the box, expanding their thinking or perspective or even reading the writing on the wall. They have this mission to sell the official story at any and all costs.

I feel bad for you really I do, you honestly believe what you believe, so did half the nation when we went into Iraq.

To bad it was entirely a fiction made up by a well connected sexual deviant and sadist!

That’s really just a byproduct though of a brilliant and creative mind, but the point is it was all fiction. People in the know knew it was fiction too, but they knew that there was a lot of money and power and prestige on the line in selling it.

You’re a brilliant man Michael but you aren’t a particularly open minded one.

The paranoia you so often espouse doesn’t serve you well because you misplace the fact that most of these people as much as they frustrate you are on a quest for answers and the truth.

What does that mean? It means if you are right that they will in fact end right up in time where you would like them to be.

However if you are wrong then they won’t and then my friend who was the fool, the person who kept questioning to obtain real knowledge or the one who just by sheer insistence claimed to have knowledge that wasn’t knowledge or real at all.

Just like in Iraq and just like WMD.

The truth is guarded much more fiercely in regards to the World Wars and especially the Holocaust the whole military industrial complex, oil industries and banks depend upon it all.

Who cares if we could have replaced oil and petroleum based products more cheaply and productively and environmentally friendly ones with hemp based oils and plastics and papers a long time ago?

Only the wealthiest most powerful men in the world who would stand to loose a fortune if they did.

The whole balance and control of the Middle East for these men is based on Zionist Israel and the whole justification for Zionist Israel is the Holocaust.

Do the math, I will loan you my calculator if you need one. Don’t worry it’s made by Texas Instruments, not IBM!


[edit on 7/1/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]



posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 10:34 PM
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reply to post by Sharrow
 


I read the article and got something completly different from it. I believe Mr. Van Pelt was not stating the Holocaust was not real just that so much time has past the physical eveidence that once existed is now gone..."The bulidings were built to last for 3 years" and teh stabels were picked up "and put on train to Warsaw"and "the crematoriums do not exist ant more as they were blown up by the Germans". What we do have are pictures of the tens of thousands of those killed and eyewitness testimony from US soldiers that liberated these same camps that are now gone due to time...NOT because it never occured. Plenty of proff from the Nazis themselves that a Holocaust did happen. No doubt in my mind.

[edit on 1/7/2010 by DJMSN]

[edit on 1/7/2010 by DJMSN]



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