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Only one percent of the Holocaust claims can be proven - Says Holocaust Scholar and Expert

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posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 04:26 AM
reply to post by Sharrow

Erm...I'm not Jewish.

But if you think I am, ATS now knows the true feelings for you creating this thread

posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 04:37 AM
reply to post by Muckster

I know this is a bit off topic (although it is a comment on historical misrepresentation of mass murders).

How much evidence is there for the Spanish conquistador’s massacre of the native South American Indians?

The fact is that most present-day south americans are mixed race (white europeans and native population and in some places also black people from Africa) or just pure native americans. There are not that many pure europeans (spaniards, italians, and people from other places in europe). On the other hand I'd say there are very few survivors from the native populations of North America.

posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 04:56 AM

Originally posted by THELONIO
reply to post by mmiichael

i never said that it was a consolation prize, but i bet the holocaust went a huge way towards the formation of a nation based on a religion, the land that the league of nations used for the formation of israel did belong to people, it was not just a scrap of wasteland, it was not a small decision to change borders and form new nations, it had many factors regarding its creation.

i hope that that was not the only thing that was taken from what i posted otherwise i am wasting my breath

Sorry for any misunderstanding. One has to acknowledge particularly in the aftermath of WWI, when country boundaries were changed, new countries were created, tens of millions found themselves displaced or minorities on new arbitrary national boundaries. There are literally hundreds of submerged minorities throughout Asia. Some like the Kurds who lived in an area overlapping Turkey, Iran, Iraq - who have ever had their own country.

When the group of Arab nations declared war on Israel the day it was formed
and lost - 850,000 Jews were suddenly thrown out of Muslim countries across the region and Noth Africa. They were given day and no compensation for property seized.

The Arabs who fought the Israelis unsuccessfully and fled were invited back. They were advised to stay away by Arab countries who promised them the Jews would be dealt with. Not all left. Today 1.3 million Muslim Arabbs are Israeli citizens.

Numbers are difficult to determine but it is calculated the vast majority of Arabs living in what became Israel in 1948 had come between 1920-45. Jews had created a growing economy to which Arabs immigrated en masse to fill the growing labour needs. Most of the people who called themselves Palestinians had arrived from Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, etc. According to the UN a Palestinian was someone who was living in the boundaries of Israel in 1946. There already was a large Jewish presence of legal Jewish citizens many of whose families had lived there for centuries as well as immigrants going back ino the 19th Century.

The Arabs who fled after losing the 1948 war never attempted to negotiate terms of settlement, or to form a new state in the Jordan occupied West Bank. In essence they chose their homeless status which they've maintained despite settlement terms for over 60 years.

posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 06:20 AM
I have a question.

When did the world at large first become aware of the fact that some six million Jews in central and eastern Europe were either threatened by death or had already been killed? Is there anyone who can answer that question?

I suggest you tread carefully....

posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 06:37 AM
reply to post by D377MC

6 million figure is pre ww2 and is from an article / add concerning the wellfare of immigrants at the time in new york if i recall correctly ,

the 4 million plaque was removed from one of the consentration camps cause it lacked historical fact/evidence

rest is speculations i guess ,

posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 06:53 AM

Originally posted by Sharrow
Because I also heard many survivor stories, some of them many times and each of them changed after each tale. Sorry, stories where the story is changing is cannot be considered as hard evidence or an excellent testamony. So where the psyhical evidence is? Oh, wait, that's the 1%. So, I guess you can see my problem.

So, who to should I believe? The ones whose are telling their stories different everytime and used to confuse the details what I always love to pinpoint out? Or the hard evidences, which is at 1% regarding this matter? So who would you believe?

If you ask 10 people about an event, you will get more than one version of it.

Take 9/11 as an example. There are numerous witnesses of the events that day - many of them have posted on ATS.

Some believe that no planes were involved in the attacks.

Some say that they saw missiles.

People reported bombs exploding.

People reported hearing explosions in the WTC before the planes hit, some after, some at the same time.

Some people say that the plane that hit the pentagon couldn't have done it.

Many versions. One event.

The buildings and debris are gone, and only the memorial at Ground Zero remains.

Yes there is video and photo evidence, but hey that could be falsified/CGI/pictures of other things taken out of context.

I summise that, using your logic, you don't believe that 9/11 happened then?

So we're on a roll here.

I'm sure you don't doubt 9/11 happened.
You say that you don't doubt Hiroshima happened.

But the holocaust you question.

But then you said this

Plus we can see just even here at ATS how the Jewish people can work together. Do you believe it's that hard after that to say the same stories if it's necessary (I'm not saying this about the Holocaust, I'm saying this in general.)? Have you ever heard the phrase: partners in crime?

Now then - as we all know this is the internet. And anyone can be anything on the internet. Thats because unless the person is sitting next to you on a webcam that you can see you have no idea who you are talking to on the internet

So, quite how you draw the conclusion that jewish people are working together on ATS when you can't see or verify that fact is beyond me.

But whats not beyond me is the fact that you mentioned it, and want to make an issue out of it.

posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 07:26 AM
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Great post Proto as always. Very well put in a simple manner. Not to mention I agree with you on this subject.

posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 07:40 AM
reply to post by queenannie38

Seem well researched but I have not come across these studies before, I will try to go thru them. I hope you wont mind if I borrow your posts.

posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 07:50 AM

Originally posted by EndOfTheWorld7
Only about 200,000 so called Jews died in the Holocaust.

Holocaust was just a scam to make the World feel sorry for the so called Jews and to put them in Israel, what they did was "stage" Biblical prophecy to make everyone believe their lie about them being the Biblical Israelites.

So called Jews are pretty much Christians in the sense that they believe they are some how spiritually Biblical Israelites by just converting, the Jews just had enough money to stage it.
(elite Jews actually do worship Satin and admit it)

Sorry had to state I do not agree with your views. You are over simplifying it, millions of people did die from all parts of world, be it Polish, Russian, British, Jews, German etc. I should not say this but I find your 2nd para to be racist. That is just my opinion.

posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 08:01 AM

Originally posted by December_Rain
Seem well researched but I have not come across these studies before, I will try to go thru them. I hope you wont mind if I borrow your posts.

no problem!
that's what they're there for

posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 08:10 AM
How can the Holocaust not have happened if the 6 million people are nowhere to be found?

posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 08:25 AM
"All critics of Jews should not be tagg ed as anti-Semites. We are not a nation of Christs, Spinozas, and Einsteins; that the Nazis are brutes does not make us angels ... Criticism is not the same as hatred, and critics are not our enemies. The greatest friends of a people are not those who praise but those who honestly find fault. A people without criticism is either a dictatorship or a community so deeply embedded in smug self-satisfaction as to be on the road to decadence."
-- William Zuckerman, Jewish author [written before World War II,
    in Goldstein, D., p. 119] 

"The far-reaching consequences of the [Jewish] martyr complex go beyond any effect of the individual Jew ... and do not leave unmarked even the most sympathetically inclined Gentiles. Since the Jew is hypersensitive on the subject of his Judaism, Gentiles fear to offer constructive criticism lest they be accused of prejudices. Thus the Jew is denied the benefit of honest evaluation of the very real differences and prejudices existing ... I believe we Jews will never be normal individuals so long as we foster our martyr complex, so long as we remain evasive of self-appraisal and self-improvement, and so long as it is easier to blame the other fellow for our own faults."      
    Maurice M. Feurlich , Jewish author
    -- in "Children of the Martyr Race," The Forum, NYC, September 1937; cited in Goldstein, D., p. 116    

"By accusing western democracies of anti-Semitism, the Jews put them on the defensive. As long as guilt feelings can be profitably mined, advantages can be gained. But the lode is not likely to last forever."
                -- Moshe Leshem , former Israeli diplomat, p. 253-254]

     "We are all socialized in Western society to resist judging any individual by his or her ethnic/group association. It's a noble ideal: Why prejudge anyone about anything? Let any individual be completely evaluated upon his or her respective merits. America is educationally, and legally, configured as a "tolerant" society, champion of a variety of multicultural perspectives. As reasonable as this may seem, however, there can be a profound double standard subliminally at work here. What about when the "individual we must not prejudge" is part of a subcommunity that itself prejudges all who are not part of that group's boundaries of identity, a group that consistently acts by its self-protective, self-expansive biases? Is it "prejudicial" to criticize individuals who maintain -- actively or passively -- such group allegiance, within, and transcending, the American matrix? And is it not morally reasonable, and in fact morally necessary, to criticize any collectivity, to the degree it deviates, at core , from the inter-ethnic tolerant, and universalistic , ethic of the American sociopolitical framework? And what about when such a group can, alternately or collectively, self-configure as a racial, ethnic, religious, nationalist, and political organization? Does such a community merit categorical immunity from criticism?"

posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 08:53 AM

6 million figure is pre ww2

Sort of. Lets have a look at where the figure of 6 million comes from.

An analysis of the proceedings of the Nuremberg Tribunal tells us that the figure of six million Jewish victims was based neither on statistical evidence
from census data nor on the results of an investigation into the material evidence connected to the crimes, but merely on hear-say statements given by two German SS-bureaucrats. One of these statements, given by Wilhelm Höttl was produced only in writing; the other, coming from Dieter Wisliceny was given by the witness in court. However, Wisliceny was never cross-examined.
Both witnesses assert to have heard the figure of six million mentioned by
Adolf Eichmann, but the latter denied this during his own trial at Jerusalem in 1961.

That is known as hearsay... and what's more was not confirmed by the actual source.

Both Höttl and Wisliceny were originally held in the defendants’ wing of the
Nuremberg prison because of their involvement in the mass deportation of
Jews to Auschwitz. Their statements, however, allowed them to be moved to the witnesses’ wing – a life-saving switch in many cases. Whereas Wisliceny and Eichmann were later tried and hanged, Höttl was never prosecuted, even though he had been just as active in those deportations. It seems obvious that he was promised leniency for his services, that is to say, for his incriminating testimony, and that the promise was eventually kept.

Now, what is curious is that some Zionist leaders were able, in June 1945, immediately after the cessation of hostilities in Europe, to come up in Washington with a precise figure for the Jewish victims – 6 million, of course – even though it was plainly impossible to do any kind of census work in the chaotic conditions prevailing in Europe at that time.

Historian Joachim Hoffmann who had worked for decades in the German
Federal Research Office for Military History, noticed that Ilya Ehrenburg,
the chief atrocity specialist of the Soviets, had published the figure of six million in the Soviet foreign language press as early as December 1944, more than four months before the war came to an end. In May 1944, Zionist activist Rabbi Dov Weissmandel stated that up to that month six million Jews of Europe and Russia had been annihilated. A look into the pages of the New York Times shows us that this was far from being an isolated case, as is borne out by a few quotations:

December 13, 1942, p. 21:
“[…] ‘Authenticated reports point to 2,000,000 Jews who have already been
slain by all manner of satanic barbarism, and plans for the total extermination
of all Jews upon whom the Nazis can lay their hands. The slaughter of a
third of the Jewish population in Hitler‘s domain [3×2,000,000=6,000,000]
and the threatened slaughter of all is a holocaust without parallel.’”

December 20, 1942, p. 23:
“What is happening to the 5,000,000 Jews of German-held Europe, all of
whom face extermination […].

Early in December 1942 the State Department in Washington gave some
figures showing that the number of Jewish victims deported and perished
since 1939 in Axis-controlled Europe now reached the appalling figure of
2,000,000 and that 5,000,000 were in danger of extermination.”

March 2, 1943, pp. 1, 4:
[…Rabbi Hertz said] to secure even the freedom to live for 6,000,000 of
their Jewish fellow men by readiness to rescue those who might still escape
Nazi torture and butchery. […]”

March 10, 1943, p. 12:
“[…] 2,000,000 Jews killed in Europe. […] The four million left to kill are
being killed, according to plan.” (2+4=6 million)

April 20, 1943, p. 11:
“Two million Jews have been wiped out […] five million more are in immediate
danger of execution […].” (2+5=7 million)


posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 08:54 AM
There is also an interesting quotation dating from the year 1936. Chaim
Weizmann, then President of the Zionist world organization, appeared before the Commission and asserted that 6 million Jews were living in Europe as if in a prison and were regarded as undesirable.

Now this is certainly very interesting. But it gets a lot better....

From about 1915 onwards, various American newspapers,especially the
New York Times, reported that the Jews in central and eastern Europe in
particular were suffering under the conditions brought about by the war.
Between 1919 and 1927 there were, in the U.S., massive campaigns organized by Jewish circles to collect money claiming that five or six million Jews in central and eastern Europe were near death.

New York Times, Dec. 4, 1926: “five million starving people […] half the
Jews of the world, smitten by pestilence and famine […].”

New York Times, April 21, 1926: “This is the cry that comes from the Jews
of Europe […] a whole people is dying […] millions of Jews are trapped in
Europe […].”

New York Times, Jan. 9, 1922, p. 19: “unspeakable horrors and infinite
crimes perpetrated against the Jewish people. Dr. Hertz declared that
1,000,000 human beings had been butchered and that for three years
3,000,000 persons in the Ukraine had been made ‘to pass through the
horrors of hell’ […].”

That by the way is the same Mr. Hertz you referred to a while ago who claimed on March 2, 1943, in the same newspaper that six million members of the Jewish people were on the verge of being slaughtered by the Nazis and had to be saved.

Lets move on....

New York Times, May 7, 1920: “[…] Jewish war sufferers in Central and
Eastern Europe, where six millions face horrifying conditions of famine, disease and death […].”

New York Times, May 5, 1920, p. 9: “To save six million men and women in Eastern Europe form extermination by hunger and disease.”

New York Times, May 5, 1920, p. 19: “Six million starving, fever-stricken
sufferers in war-torn Europe appeal to us […]”

New York Times, May 3, 1920, p. 11: “Your help is needed to save the lives
of six million people in Eastern and Central Europe.”

New York Times, May 3, 1920, p. 12: “In Russia and the neighboring countries the Jews have been subject to a particularly malignant persecution[…]. It is estimated that more than five millions are actually starving or on the verge of starvation, and a virulent typhus epidemic is raging among them and is already spreading among neighboring populations.”

New York Times, May 2, 1920, p. 1: “Six million human beings, without
food, shelter, clothing or medical treatment.”

New York Times, May 1, 1920, p. 8: “But the lives of 6,000,000 human beings wait upon the answer.”

New York Times, Apr. 21, 1920, p. 8: “In Europe there are today more than 5,000,000 Jews who are starving or on the verge of starvation, and many
are in the grip of a virulent typhus epidemic.”

New York Times, Dec. 3, 1919, p. 19: “nothing on earth except a miracle
can prevent the death by freezing and starvation of from 5,000,000 to
10,000,000 people in Europe and the Middle East this winter […] atrocious
Jewish massacre.”

New York Times, Dec. 3, 1919, p. 24: “Five Million Face Famine in Poland
[…] The war has left 5,000,000 destitute and stricken Jews in Eastern

New York Times, Nov. 12, 1919, p. 7: “tragically unbelievable poverty, starvation and disease about 6,000,000 souls, or half the Jewish population of the earth […] a million children and […] five million parents and elders.”

The American Hebrew, Oct. 31, 1919, pp. 582f.: “From across the sea, six
million men and women call to us for help […] six million human beings.
[…] Six million men and women are dying […] in the threatened holocaust
of human life […] six million famished men and women. Six million men and women are dying […]”

New York Times, Oct. 26, 1919, p. 1: “4,000,000 Starving Jews of Eastern


posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 08:54 AM
New York Times, Sept. 29, 1919, p. 7: “tragically unbelievable poverty,
starvation and disease about 6,000,000 souls, or half the Jewish population
of the earth.”

New York Times, Aug. 10, 1917: “Germans Let Jews Die. Women and Children in Warsaw Starving to Death […] Jewish mothers, mothers of mercy, feel happy to see their nursing babies die; at least they are through with their suffering.”

New York Times, Jan. 14, 1915, p. 3: “In the world today there are about
13,000,000 Jews, of whom more than 6,000,000 are in the heart of the war
zone; Jews whose lives are at stake and who today are subjected to every
manner of suffering and sorrow […].”

In 1900, Rabbi Stephen Wise made the following statement before Jewish
welfare organizations in the USA: “there are 6,000,000 living, bleeding, suffering arguments in favor of Zionism.”

It would seem that we are dealing with a constant in Jewish suffering, the figure of 6 million. There is a specific reason for that: an ancient Jewish
prophecy, promising the Jews the return to the Promised Land after the loss of six million of their people. This would seem to indicate that Jewish sufferings were useful to various Jewish leaders as an argument to bring about that very aim – the return to the Promised Land.

We must not forget that Palestine had been promised to the Zionists
in the Balfour Declaration by England during the First World War. That was,
no doubt, a major reason for the holocaust propaganda during and after the First World War.

But we are not over quite yet, as the outrageous claims continue:

Take the front cover announcement of volume 12, number 1 (spring 1991),
of Response, a periodical published by the Jewish Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles and distributed in 381,065 copies:

“GERMANS PRODUCE ZYKLON B IN IRAQ (Iraq’s German-made gas chamber)”

“Shocking Revelation: German Firms Produce Zyklon B in Iraq
True to their legacy of their Nazi-era predecessors, the German business
community has sought to absolve itself of its share of blame in the current
Middle East disaster. ‘We did not knowingly supply Iraq with weapons of
mass destructions – we violated no law – we were just filling orders…’ […]
Even more ominous is the report that Iraq has developed a new potent gas
which actually contains Zyklon B. […] this gas, and the nerve gas, Tabun,
were tested on Iranian POWs in gas chambers specially designed for the
Iraqis by the German company […] (see cover photo of gas chamber prototype). German Gas Chamber: Nightmare Revisited.”

Seems like we have 6,000,000 victims and gas chambers all over the place... wow.

None of this can be contested, the references are available to anyone. So I'll
tell you what happens next, as indeed has already happened numerous times
throughout the thread: supporters of the holocaust fantasy make a 180 degree
"But does that really matter? Even if it should turn out that only one million, or even only 10,000 Jews had been killed, it would still be a despicable crime,
wouldn’t it?"

It is absolutely dumbfounding that, on the one hand, anyone who questions this figure of 6 million victims is made an intellectual outcast or will even suffer legal persecution in most European countries, whereas, on the other hand, whenever valid arguments against this figure are raised, society and even judges will sound a retreat, claiming that precise figures are not the point and insisting on the criminal character of even a single victim.

Is this figure of six million a legal yardstick or is it of no importance? Because quite clearly, to anyone with half a brain it cannot be both.

posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 09:00 AM

that's all you need to read, enjoy it .... then you have a choice to make, "do I believe senseless propaganda or not?"

To finally answer the topic of the thread, who needs scores of expensive museums showcasing a lie?

posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 09:01 AM
reply to post by Glass_Eyed_Max

Glass_Eyed_Max, when quoting one individual, you have to give the context in wich the quote was sayd, wich you have failed to do.

The left-wing anti-semites do not only criticise Israel. They condemn it outright and deny its right to exist. They use legitimate criticisms, and utilise our natural sympathy with the Palestinians, not to seek redress, not as arguments against an Israeli government, an Israeli policy, or anything specifically wrong in Israel, but as arguments against the right of Israel to exist at all. Any Israel. Any Jewish state in the area. Any Israel, with any policy, even one in which all the specific causes for justly criticising present-day Israel and for supporting the Palestinians against it have been entirely eliminated.

The root problem, say the left-wing anti-semites, is that Israel exists. The root “crime of Zionism” is that it advocated and brought into existence “the Zionist state of Israel”.

Bitterly, and often justly, criticising specific Israeli policies, actions, and governments, seemingly championing the Palestinians, your left-wing anti-semites seek no specific redress in Israel or from Israel, demanding only that Israel should cease to exist or be put out of existence.

They often oppose measures to alleviate the condition of the Palestinians short of the destruction of Israel. Thus the petitions and chants on demonstrations: “Two states solution, no solution!”

A neat illustration of this was provided three years ago when, at a meeting of the council of the SWP-dominated Socialist Alliance, a supporter of this newspaper proposed the slogan “Israel out of the Occupied Territories”. It was voted down, and much vaguer ones, “Free Palestine”, “Victory to the intifada”, voted in.

Why? “Free Palestine” can be understood in different ways, depending on your definition of “Palestine”. Therefore it can accommodate those who, without having studied the complexities or the history of the Jewish-Arab conflict, instinctively side with the oppressed and outmatched Palestinians, and for whom “Free Palestine” means simply that Israel should get out of the Occupied Territories. And it can also accommodate those, like the proponents of the slogan, the political Islamists of the Muslim Association of Britain/ Muslim Brotherhood and others, who define “Palestine” as pre-Israel, pre-1948 Palestine, and by “Free Palestine” mean the destruction and abolition of Israel, and the elimination in one way or another of the Jewish population of Israel, or most of them.

The political differences spelled out here are easily understood. But why is the drive and the commitment to destroy Israel anti-semitism, and not just anti-Zionism?

Because the attitude to the Jewish nation in Israel is unique, different from the left’s attitude to all other nations; and because of the ramifications for attitudes to Jews outside Israel. Apart from a few religious Jews who think the establishment of Israel was a revolt against God, and some Jews who share the views of the leftists whom we are discussing here, those Jews outside Israel instinctively identify with and support Israel, however critically. For the left-wing anti-semite they are therefore “Zionists”, and proper and natural targets of the drive to “smash Zionism”.

The attitude of the “anti-Zionist” left to Israel brings with it a comprehensive hostility to most Jews everywhere - those who identify with Israel and who defend its right to exist. They are not just people with mistaken ideas. They are “Zionists”.

“Left-wing anti-semitism” is, in short, a comprehensive hostility to most Jews alive, branding them as “Zionists” and seeing that description as akin to “racist" or “imperialist”. It excepts only those Jews who agree that Israel is racist imperialism in its most concentrated essence, and oppose its continued existence.

posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 09:04 AM
This year in particular, there was significance to the proximity of Holocaust Remembrance Day to the celebrations of Independence Day. The prime minister of Israel -- the Israel that's been likened to the phoenix rising from the ashes of the Holocaust -- met on the eve of Holocaust Remembrance Day with the leader of the Palestinians whose doctoral thesis asserts the double claim of Holocaust denial and blaming Zionism for the Nazi persecution of the Jews.

And this too: the prime minister of Israel was adopting on the eve of Independence Day the "Saudi Initiative", which is premised on the withdrawal of Israel to the "Auschwitz borders" of the Green Line.

Independence Day was chosen to follow Holocaust Remembrance Day in the same way that the exit from Israel's Holocaust museum of Yad Vashem was designed: a sharp passage from darkness to the spectacular brightness of the hills of Jerusalem. However, shadows of holocaust are now clouding the skies of independence.

How ironic that the more the Holocaust recedes in time from us, the more current and relevant it becomes: the re-flowering of anti-Semitism in the West, the slaughter of suicide bombers, militant Islam preaching the genocide of the Jews and their state, a world atmosphere resembling that of the '30s, Ahmadinejad and his nuclear bomb. It's all contained in the image of the Muslim woman, covered with a black hijab, demonstrating in London holding a large placard with the words "Be Prepared for the REAL Holocaust!"

Thus quietly expired another leftist mantra that arrogantly disparaged anyone daring to adhere to the Zionist view of anti-Semitism as a chronic illness and the world as a dangerous place for Jews. They mockingly called this "anachronistic" worldview "the Auschwitz Syndrome," and in its place built a new world and a new Israeli that overcame his Jewishness and shed his musty patriotism, burdensome territories, and also his security paranoia and excessive military power. The simpletons of the left believed that this unburdening would usher us into "the New Middle East." And this is how we cultivated our own local strain of Holocaust denial. Not denial of what happened in the past, G-d forbid, but denial of what could happen in the here and now. To this end the left rudely silenced any opinion that asserted that the Arab lust for murder might have something to do with anything other than Israeli "occupation," "oppression," "exploitation" or "discrimination."

Yad Vashem was tended for ceremonial and diplomatic purposes only. For internal consumption, enlightened Israel broadcast the message that what happened "then" has no connection whatsoever to the situation of the Jews today. The "lessons of the Holocaust" were turned into empty rhetoric, and whoever tried to learn from the experience of the Holocaust was guilty of "cheapening" it and of the tasteless exploitation of the memory of the victims.

For example, it is forbidden to compare the blindness of the Jews and their leaders to the murderous Nazi threat with the psychological denial of the current Israeli establishment and media of the meaning of the Arab blood cult. And it is even forbidden to ponder the possibility that every "solution" that is presented to us to end the "conflict" is nothing but camouflage for the final solution that the Arabs really desire and are working towards.

Of course it isn't proper to educate towards values such as strength, victory, or 'arise to kill those who wish to kill you,' values that might provide us with minimal margins of security. On the contrary, our homegrown Holocaust deniers demand that we make more and more weakening concessions, materially and spiritually. They demand that we deny the justice of our cause in favor of a guilt complex based on "injustice against the Arabs." They demand restraint in the face of attacks in the North and the South. They demand inaction against Kassam missiles. They demand releasing thousands of murderous terrorists. They demand that we withdraw from our strategic territorial depth.

Above all, woe to anyone who dares warn, like the unheeded Cassandra, daughter of the king of Troy, against allowing the Trojan Horse known as the "Palestinian state" to enter our gates. Woe to anyone who cautions that the day of such a state's establishment, G-d forbid, will begin the countdown to the final solution of the Jewish State of Israel. Woe to anyone who quotes the Palestinians' open declarations that the entire purpose of their future state is to liquidate the "Zionist entity" and to arise in its place. In exactly the same way, people refused to inform themselves or cry out against the murderous intentions spelled out in Hitler's Mein Kampf. We have an independent, free state that is strong and flourishing. We have a strong economy; the lifespan of our citizens is among the highest in the world. We are leaders in every field: science, Torah, medicine, music, agriculture, Ofek satellites, Arrow missiles, and nuclear capability. We celebrate on Independence Day the miracle of our state's revival and its astounding success in standing as a mighty rock in the stormy waters continuously smashing against it.

But also great Troy, wealthy, beautiful, and secure, withstood for ten years the siege of the entire Greek army. The Greeks finally despaired of capturing her by force and plotted against her with cunning. Troy's mighty wall protected her until she herself breached it by opening her gates to receive the 'parting gift' of the withdrawing Greeks -- a huge horse that contained Troy' s destruction.

Olmert and Livni, in thrall to Condoleeza, are presently reviewing, together with the Palestinians, the Saudi-Arab Trojan Horse, called the "horizon" of the Palestinian state.

But how does this horizon really look? We volunteer to outline it for our leaders:

Non-stop firing on all the cities of Israel by everything from small arms to missiles.

War along the separation fence.

Tunnels, infiltration, and terror.

A huge stream of 'returning' Palestinians marching on the Green Line: Mass marches -- women and children at the head -- streaming towards Lod, Ramle, and Haifa.

The fall of the Hashemite kingdom in Jordan.

Israel surrounded by the armies of "Greater Palestine," from the border of Iraq to the Mediterranean Sea.

Bisection of the Negev by an extra-territorial corridor connecting Gaza to Hebron.

Violent agitation among "Israeli Palestinians" who will first demand autonomy and later annexation to their Palestinian homeland.

Increased delegitimation of Israel as a Jewish state.

Increased acceptance of the natural conclusion that the land called 'Palestine' is the homeland of the Palestinian nation, whereas the Israeli entity is forced, artificial, and temporary.

Step by step loss, based on the Road Map, of the indices of Israeli independence to the control of the Quartet and international forces -- in effect, turning Israel into a protectorate of the Security Council. The army won't oppose these moves because, within the new chopped up borders, the country will be indefensible.
What will remain of Israel after the mass expulsion of 300,000 settlers (500,000 including East Jerusalem) and huge waves of emigration by anyone and everyone who can manage to flee the sinking ship, will be a nation divided and crushed, that will have no alternative but to accept the practical loss of its independence.

Already today, Israel's largest circulation daily, Yediot Achronot, is reporting (4/16/07) on a "steep drop in the quantity of flags ordered for Independence Day. People don't have the desire to hang flags . . . the settlers aren't hanging them this year because they're angry with the symbols of the state." If this is the after-shock of the first expulsion, the small one, how will the horizon look after the great tsunami called "the Arab initiative"?

If this, G-d forbid, is the "horizon" that the horse will usher in, what are our 'walls of Troy' that, as long as they stand, protect the city from falling to the enemy?

As fate would have it, on this Independence Day we also celebrate the 40 year anniversary of the Six Day War, that miracle which planted us anew in the true heart of the Zionist dream: Zion and it hills, from where we overlook and can defend our state of plains and valleys.

Had we not known from personal knowledge that it was the emotional and ideological drive that created hundreds of settlements and planted half a million Jews in Judea, Samaria, and historic Jerusalem, we might have supposed that some strategic genius planned out in advance the cure to the plague of a Palestinian state. For all agree that as long as Jewish settlements exist and spread out over the territory of Judea and Samaria, the monster of an independent Palestine cannot arise. Jews can tolerate a 20 percent Arab population in their midst, but the Arabs can't tolerate even a single Jew -- and the whole world, including the state of the Jews, has adopted their Nazi racism.

Here, then, is our Trojan wall, whose fall, G-d forbid, would seal our doom. As against the "Arab horizon" in the feverish brains of Olmert, Livni, and Peretz, the Jewish nation has built over the past 40 years a large and strong enterprise, spread out over the width and breadth of Judea and Samaria. As long as it exists and endures, it blocks the steamroller of the so-called "Saudi Initiative" from overrunning the Israel that lied between the Green Line and the blue Mediterranean in both the literal and conceptual sense. Israel will have to demolish this wall stone by stone with its own hands if, in its continued madness, it wishes to bring upon itself the fate of Troy.

And thus, the lessons of the Holocaust, Independence Day, and the joy of celebrating 40 years since the liberation of the land of the Bible, are one. The achievements of the settlement enterprise are our guarantor that future generations will be there to remember the Holocaust and celebrate future Independence Days in a free, Jewish state.

Some day we'll recall these tranquil months of headlines devoted to road accidents and minor scandals -- the headlines of a society free from existential cares -- as a fool's paradise whose fools turned a blind eye to the erupting volcano threatening to bury us all. There was another summer like this one preceding Yom Kippur in '73, but this time the surprise attack is being readied from within, and the calamity will be diplomatic.

I'm referring to the ritual sacrifice that the Bush administration is preparing for us this November that goes by the name of a "peace conference." The role of the sacrificial lamb will be filled by Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, hundreds of Jewish communities, and hundreds of thousands of Jews that will become refugees in their own land -- all this on the backdrop of national, societal, and diplomatic collapse.

The kindling and the fire for the sacrifice will be brought by Shimon Peres and his perpetual partner in crime, Terje Larsen. Serving them are Haim Ramon, Ehud Olmert, and Abu Mazen. Spurring them on are two evil and ambitious women who, like the most destructive tornadoes, are called by cute nicknames: Tzippi and Condi. On the tombstone the gravediggers will engrave the words "The Diplomatic Horizon" (for the Palestinians) and/or "Principles for the Final Status Agreement" and/or "Framework Agreement for the Establishment of a Palestinian State." The conference will deal with "core issues", that is to say it will uproot the core and the heart of our hold on our land: Jerusalem, borders, refugees, destruction of the settlements.

Discussions on these matters are being held continually and urgently to the end of bringing the sacrificial lamb to Washington on time, already bound and readied for slaughter. There are those who are working to ensure that the sacrificial feast will be well attended -- from Morocco in the West to the Gulf States in the East. Israel's enemies have waited 40 years for this moment when Israel will be forced to regurgitate all that she swallowed during the Six Day War. Their eyes will finally merit to see the ceremony of subjugation whereby the Jews will return to the Arabs their lost honor and resume their proper places. To our enemies' good fortune, manning the helm of Israel's ship of state is a man supremely appropriate to the task of self-administering this coup de grace to the Jews -- a man dogged by failures and accusations of corruption, whose personal attributes embody all that is weak, rotten, spoilt, and foundering among the Jews in their land at this hour . . .

At this "peace" conference, the enemies of Israel from the East and from the West will dictate the decree that Olmert and his friends are writing now in absolute secret together with the Americans and the Arabs while the Israeli public, including the national camp and the settlers, twiddle their thumbs. It's comforting to tell ourselves soothing tales such as how Olmert is weak and Abu Mazen is even weaker, and that both of them lack the standing and support among their people to undertake such far-reaching diplomatic initiatives. There are no lack of such rationalizing yarns. Whoever calms themselves in this way doesn't understand the nature and quality of the liquidation ceremony that's being prepared for us.

This ceremony doesn't require any strength, in fact it doesn't require anything at all except for a declaratory statement, ink on paper, the most feeble exhalation of breath, an effort that even a dying man could make without difficulty. However, a declaration like this is enough to bring about, in the words of Shimon Peres, "the concluding chapter of the conflict with the Palestinians," and, in actual truth, the concluding chapter of Israel's independence. After this, Israel will be a state in name only. In reality Israel will become a protectorate of the United Nations, whose foreign policy and security are given into the hands of the Quartet, and whose security, that is to say our lives, are entrusted to international forces in the North, center, and South of the country.

At the sacrificial peace conference in Washington, Israel will likely obligate itself to establish a Palestinian state on its ancestral inheritance. The capitol of the new state will be Jerusalem, and not even one Jew will be allowed to live within its boundaries.

It doesn't matter that the conference will not determine on which street in Jerusalem and over which hill or through which valley the border will pass. It is of no significance that the conference won't decide how many Arab "refugees" we'll be forced to swallow. What will be determined, irrevocably and eternally, this coming year or next year at the latest, is Palestinian sovereignty as a diplomatic, international, fact -- with finality. The rest truly isn't important. So too when they signed the Oslo Accords with only the "Declaration of Principles." In its wake, as thunder follows lightning, we were hit by the "interim agreement" with all its details that demanded actualization: areas A, B, and C, the Palestinian "police", inserting a terror state infrastructure from Tunis into our borders, and all the rest of the insane arrangements that buried 1,500 Jews in their land and prepared the state for its final act of self-immolation in the guise of a Palestinian state that will turn life in this land into a living hell -- an irrevocable living hell.

It's not important that the governmental apparatuses of the Palestinian state will be weak or even non-existent. It doesn't matter whether a prime minister or the head of some terrorist faction will rule. It's not important if this state has no economy and will live on the handouts that Israel, the Europeans, and the Americans pay to the gangsters as protection money for a modicum of quiet. The world contains a number of such non-functional states. Somalia, for example, is ruled by gangs of tribal thieves and thugs, but that doesn't in the least detract from Somalian sovereignty and from the land remaining the land of Somalia according to international law.

Herzl had a vision of a Jewish state arising with international legal recognition. Now this vision has been turned on its head, and a foreign entity is achieving international recognition as sovereign over the Land of Israel. And who is promoting this travesty? The Jews themselves.

What is the irredeemable, eternal meaning of Palestinian sovereignty? When Israel liberated Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and Gaza in the Six Day War, she didn't conquer land that belonged to any sovereign power. Neither Jordan in Judea and Samaria nor Egypt in Gaza had any sovereign rights in those territories. Both had invaded those territories in 1948 in order to frustrate the League of Nations decision of November 29, 1947 recognizing Israel. Egypt never claimed sovereignty over Gaza and established military rule there from the beginning. Jordan, in contravention of international law, attempted to establish sovereignty over Judea and Samaria, but renounced this aspiration on its own initiative in 1988.

Only because of this vacuum in sovereignty was Israel authorized to utilize state lands to settle Jews in Yesha or to settle the lands in any way. Had there been a legal sovereign before Israel's takeover of those territories, the Hague Convention would have forbidden Israel from making fundamental changes to the status quo, including the utilization of state lands. International law views the conquering military administration as custodian over the occupied territories until they are returned to the original sovereign in a future peace agreement. Until then, the conquered lands are held in trust by the occupying power. In the same way, the conqueror is forbidden from excavating antiquities located in occupied territories. They too are held in trust for the conquered power that will eventually regain sovereignty. Therefore, coins from the Great Revolt or the Bar Kochba Revolt, bearing images of the Holy Temple and other Jewish symbols, will belong to the Palestinians the moment they became sovereign over Judea and Samaria; Israel will be obligated to give up all the Jewish antiquities that she's excavated since '67. All this we will bring upon ourselves the moment a Jewish hand signs an agreement granting Palestinian sovereignty over the Land of Israel.

For the Palestinians to win eternal sovereignty over our homeland, it doesn't matter that Abu Mazen today happens to be weak, or if the day after signing an agreement he resumes his alliance with Hamas, or that he resigns, or is assassinated. From the moment that Palestine is declared a state, what is done can never be undone. The Palestinians, of course, will instigate terror and wars. The IDF might conquer Shechem over and over again, but will always be forced to leave and return the land to the Palestinian sovereign. This is because the land has become Palestinian land according to international law from the moment that Palestinian sovereignty is officially recognized. Just so was Berlin conquered and destroyed and divided, but in the end returned to Germany as its capitol. Just so the Nazis came and went, but Germany remained.

I've already described how this scenario is viewed under international law. The giants in the field, professors Stone, Rostow, and Schwabel, have proven how the provisions of the Mandate for Palestine, granted by the League of Nations to Britain over the Land of Israel, are in force in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza until this day. According to the Mandate, the area of the Land of Israel is allocated under international law as the national homeland of the Jewish nation 'in recognition of the historic right of the Jewish people to reestablish their national home in Palestine' (including, of course, Judea, Samaria, and Gaza). Why are the provisions of the Mandate in force to this day despite the fact that the League of Nations has passed from the world and been replaced by the United Nations, and despite the fact that England is no longer here? The professors have explained that although a part of the lands of the Mandate have become the internationally recognized State of Israel and although another part of the lands of the Mandate east of the Jordan River have become the internationally recognized State of Jordan, a third part of the Mandate lands, that include Judea, Samaria, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, were left without a recognized sovereign. As long as international law doesn't officially recognize any other sovereignty, they'll continue to be governed by the provisions of the Mandate, which states, inter alia, that state lands are to be used for intensive Jewish settlement, to encourage aliyah, and names the Jewish Agency as a tool to serve those ends.

When will these Mandate provisions cease to apply? When another sovereign will be declared over Judea, Samaria, Gaza, and Jerusalem. In the first stage, Israel abdicated her right to declare her sovereignty over Judea, Samaria, and Gaza, and left those lands undefined and ownerless. Now she is moving to the next stage, the stage of the historic terminus of Jewish rights over the Land of Israel, the stage of voluntary relinquishment of sovereignty and of transferring her rights to an alien power. In all the years of our exile and persecution, there was not found among the Jewish people any authority willing to sever the people from its beloved land. We had to return and persevere here for 120 years, undergoing difficult and bitter trials, in order to establish a state authorized under international law to give the Land of Israel a decree of divorce in the name of the Jewish People, now and forever.

Intensifying the heartbreak is the fact that Judea, Samaria, and Gaza are the only remaining territories on the entire earth (excepting the South Pole) which remain ownerless -- as if an invisible hand guarded the ancient Jewish home for the Jewish people. And now that people's representative is pushing away this hand in an act of historic betrayal that will resound throughout the generations. Now the more we ground and strengthen our claim that we're the real and legal owners of Judea, Samaria, Gaza, and Jerusalem, the more we'll ground and strengthen the newly acquired right of the Palestinians to those lands. After all, who is most authorized to gift and grant ownership over land if not the rightful owner? He and only he can legally effectuate the transfer!

When this despicable act will be final, all else will flow from it. Whether the Israeli army drags the Jews out by their hair from their homes on land that has become "Palestine," or whether it will be left to the Palestinian murderers in uniform to do the job by themselves, from the moment land comes under Palestinian sovereignty, that will be the end of all Jewish life there.

One can almost hear the destroyers talking, from Ramon to Livni and from Olmert to Peres: Soon the Palestinians will come and sweep away everything with a giant broom, the legal and established cities together with the "illegal" outposts and hilltops. Nothing will remain of the hated settlement enterprise, and together with its disappearance will come the collapse of those that bore it, the religious and national camps that endanger leftist rule. Our rulers are an elite that sprouted from what used to be called "the rule of the proletariat", in whose name they meant to appropriate the state in perpetuity. While the Socialist rationalizations have passed from the world and the elites represent no one but themselves, the socialist heirs still intend to rule in perpetuity.

I don't bother to ask, "Where is Netanyahu?" or "Where is the Likud and its Knesset members?" at this fateful hour. Neither am I asking where Lieberman is or what Rav Ovadia and his party are doing. I'm asking the settlers whose lands will be the first the Palestinian bulldozer overturns: "Where are you?!" "Going up to Homesh"? The return to Homesh isn't taking place in a void. Homesh is not suspended in thin air. This enterprise only makes sense and has purpose as part of a struggle for our continued existence in Judea, Samaria, Gaza, and Jerusalem that is now in immediate danger of destruction.

We need to gather all the Jews -- all those who remain Jews -- while there's still time and embark on a struggle to the bitter end in order to prevent at any price taking the one step from which there's no return, the one additional step that will pull the ground from under us and fling us into the abyss of Palestinian sovereignty.

Remember, we've been warned!

posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 09:08 AM
reply to post by D377MC

ah ha!
a prophecy connected to that number 6 million

makes sense
do you have any sources or more information about that prophecy?

posted on Jan, 7 2010 @ 09:10 AM
Matthias Küntzel, associate researcher at the Vidal Sassoon International Center for the Study of Anti-Semitism at the Hebrew University, has analyzed attitudes toward the Holocaust in the Islamic Republic of Iran, where the religious and political circumstances with regards to the Jews and their state are similar to those in the Arab world in general. In his analysis, Küntzel points to a paradox in the public discourse in the Middle East regarding the Holocaust. On the one hand, Holocaust denial is widespread, but on the other Hitler is admired for having murdered so many Jews. The common ground uniting these two conflicting perceptions is anti-Semitism.

Traditional anti-Semitism has been a part of Iranian culture for hundreds of years, and Iran today is a society where anti-Semitism is prevalent in the mainstream public discourse. However, with the election of Mahmud Ahmadinejad as President of the Islamic Republic, anti-Semitism has taken on a prominent place in public discourse at the highest level of state. Küntzel concludes that:

Since December 2005, the Iranian President has placed the denial of the Holocaust at the center of his agitation. During this time, the Iranian regime has spared no effort to establish the "exposure" of the "Holocaust Myth" as a new historiographical paradigm. Thus the "lie about the Holocaust" has become a regular topic on televised Friday sermons. Talk shows on public television feature a parade of historians who mock the "fairy tale about the gas chambers." The Iranian state press agency has developed into a platform for Holocaust deniers from all over the world.
According to Küntzel, the public discourse on the Holocaust in the Middle East contains some central elements. Among these is the aforementioned paradox of denial and praise for the Holocaust, the allegation that "the Zionists" have created "the Holocaust myth" and that Israel is benefiting from it; that the Holocaust was the product of a collusion between the Nazis and the Zionists; and last, but certainly not least, that Israel today is carrying out a Holocaust against the Palestinians that exceeds what the Nazis did to the Jews.[5] These elements are also frequently found in public discourse on the Holocaust in the Arab world. The following analysis will focus on some key themes in Arab public discourse on the Holocaust, and shed light on the political, or rather politicized, framework of this discourse.

People involved in the denial or minimization of the Holocaust on a more sophisticated level obviously try to make their claims as believable as possible. One way of doing this is by referring to recognized scholars in the field of Holocaust studies. It is especially useful to fall back on arguments used by Jewish scholars, since this — in the opinion of some — renders the argument immune to any accusations of anti-Semitism. In 2006, Lebanese New TV employed this strategy. The channel broadcasted a show where it was stated, falsely, that the noted Holocaust scholar Raul Hilberg would have claimed that only 50,000 Jews perished in the Holocaust. New TV stressed that Raul Hilberg and Norman Finkelstein (also referred to in the program) are Jewish. Both Hilberg and Finkelstein were used to legitimize claims that the Holocaust never happened, has been manipulated and exaggerated. Both of these men are Jews, but while Hilberg has a solid reputation as a Holocaust scholar, Finkelstein's only connection to the issue is his Jewishness and, perhaps, his starkly worded and oft-repeated anti-Zionism

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