A new age of humankind/philosophical issues.

First things first, this thread will be running in tandem with another in the Science Forum. I would very much like to keep the two separate, so if there's any sci/tech issues or comments please contribute in the other thread here...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This thread is to debate the ethical and moral implications of a new kind of human, that of an "enhanced" lifeform in some ways. We are rapidly approaching the point in our existence where we could potentially:

* Create "avatars" of ourself, downloadable or solid via cloning/dna technology.
* Extend our lifespan to far greater potential.
* Enhance our physical and/or mental capabilities beyond what we might "naturally" have.

I would initially like to state my position on this, just so everyone is clear.

Mostly I would welcome the opportunity to enhance my level of intelligence, there would be so much more potential for an "increased quality of life" for ALL of humanity - Potentially. Yet, I do feel quite uneasy about what would realistically happen with this.

I'd like to garner the opinions of you guys, I do have a lot more to say, but would enjoy debating it with some of the thinkers out there.

[edit on 6/1/1010 by jokei]

reply to post by jokei


Care to provide a link to the other thread and explain what you mean by:

* Create "avatars" of ourself, downloadable or solid via cloning/dna technology. * Extend our lifespan to far greater potential.
* Enhance our physical and/or mental capabilities beyond what we might "naturally" have.

I would only want to live once, and be the person i am.

reply to post by LiveForever8


Good morning, the link should be there towards the top of the thread, had to go back and edit it in.

Ok, what I mean by Avatars of ourselves - my understanding/thoughts, would be a digital replication of our "self", personality, soul, intellect - the culmination of those things in some way. That in the not too distant future, we may well be ghosts in the machine - I find this a crazily exciting possibility, given the potential to interact with people from the other side of the world or wherever. Depending on how do-able this is, we could be at the point where we could have Stephen Hawking as a virtual lecturer for Physics class... it wouldn't have to really be him, just his "Avatar". There are numerous examples like this, that could greatly benefit us all.

Medicine is vastly improving (if you can afford it), but the major shift will be when we master nano-technology and can not only cure illness, but prevent it entirely AND even slow or stem the aging process.

nanotechweb.org...

www.understandingnano.com...

www.nanotechproject.org...

To extrapolate upon this, once we have the tech, how long will it be before we can totally clone ourselves? Maybe have it sitting round as a spare in a tank, just in case you get hit by a car.

What would this mean about the nature of self?

reply to post by andy1033


That's a fair enough answer and I think I agree with you, but why is that in your case?

Personally, I think it would get tiresome after too much time. I would love to stay 21 forever, physically anyway, I just think it would get to the point where you'd start to want to "wind down", I think that's all part of the natural process.

[edit on 6/1/1010 by jokei]

reply to post by jokei


Improved medicines and treatments is obviously great. The longer we live the better, imagine a world were we had Leonardo da Vinci, Nikola Tesla and the like for many more years. What great things they could have achieved.

As for the avatars idea, I don't like it. We have already become dehumanised to such an extent it's not even funny. It would breed an even more passive and dispassionate populace than we have now. Why would people look after themselves if they know they could just get a new body? They wouldn't. We are already eating and drinking ourselves to death and without any real threat of negative consequences it would get worse.

The idea of having Steven Hawking as a virtual lecturer is a nice one but would there be any progress? Why employ a new up and coming theorist if you can have Stephen Hawking on tap? We have his ideas and theories down in books and papers, that should be enough.

I don't see the idea as progress and could see us falling into a state of dependence and stagnation.

Having one life gives us meaning. Having more than one makes us comfortably numb.

Originally posted by LiveForever8
reply to post by jokei

 

The idea of having Steven Hawking as a virtual lecturer is a nice one but would there be any progress? Why employ a new up and coming theorist if you can have Stephen Hawking on tap? We have his ideas and theories down in books and papers, that should be enough.

This may seem blissfully naive, but I was thinking that we could have some kind of advanced utopia, where people learn and progress as an end in itself, so up and coming theorists, scientists, academics would be seen as an asset and vastly encouraged.

I generally agree with you about the humanity being in a bad state and that the chance to just "re-boot" would devalue life - what would it do to a charge such as murder? Could you still murder?

reply to post by jokei


Naive, most certainly. But we can all dream, I certainly do

The word 'utopia' comes from the Latin for 'nowhere', how beautifully poetic.

I was going to raise that point about murder. If my clone or my avatar kills somebody who goes to jail? I mean the whole concept of culpability is thrown to the dogs. It would certainly have it benefits, like war for instance. Similar to Star Wars: The Clone Wars I would gladly let my avatar go and fight in a war if it means that we 'real' humans are saved. But then that throws up moral issues itself.

Oh what a web of confusion we have spun

My answer is cogentin, prolixin and navane.

A schizophrenic narcissistic pagan plan to usurp the Lord our God.

[edit on 6-1-2010 by fmcanarney]


[edit on 6-1-2010 by fmcanarney]

reply to post by LiveForever8


Not only that, but what if person A commits a murder of person B - yet they can be "resurrected"? Just uploaded into a clone body or the like... are we further devaluing life?

Can we further devalue life?

reply to post by jokei


Technically wouldn't that be suicide?

Its a crazy thought. There has to be some kind of film idea within all of this moral madness.

I believe human life can be further devalued. I don't want to come across as a very negative 'woe is me' kind of person, I'm not.

I truly appreciate the fact that I am living, what an adventure. I hate it when people moan about things that in the grand scale of things are utterly pointless.

I just like the idea of having one life, one opportunity, one shot at it. All or nothing. But the idea of avatars tarnish the value of life.

My opinions can be summed up thus:

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here."
- Richard Dawkins

reply to post by LiveForever8


Cheers for all your posts. Think we might have crossed wires.

Person A - Dave, "murders" person B - John ...but, John can be resurrected and his consciousness placed into an avatar/new body.

I think we should solve our current problems first, instead of messing around with these kind of stuff. If we get smarter, we get even more technology and even more power, and see how that's being misused today. Until we can arrange our current moral problems AND manifest them, we should not be allowed to do that kind of stuff, because we are not mature enough for them, and therefore it'll bite us in the ass later..

reply to post by jokei


Ah, I see what you mean now. I thought you meant a person murdering their own clone/avatar, hence suicide. But yes, the distinctions between life/death would become blurred to say the least. The more lives you have the less precious they become so they would most definitely become devalued.

I mean if someone is selling this technology for £20,000 a pop then something that once was priceless is now pretty darn cheap!

Also, imagine a world where George W Bush could be around indefinitely
Scary thought.

reply to post by vasaga

Thing is, we can't stop progress, or research and development...

We've already let the Genie out the bottle, it's not going to go back in.

reply to post by jokei


You mean "newage," rhymes with sewage? (courtesy of www.MikeHoggard.com)

Only Jesus saves.....keep looking into the newage (occultic) cesspool (God knows I did for decades before Jesus saved me), then come to the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

I think our ego's fund these kinds of technologies, and that the problems inherent with continuous cloning are/would be similar to continuous "essence/soul" transplants machine to machine... The bastards that want to be at the forefront of and behind these technologies are simply delaying the inevitable, at the high cost of meaningless labor and toil underneath the pyramidal structure needed to create a new body for the few eligible for being the guinea pig. The end of Dharma happened when humanity was created.

reply to post by DissentFromDayOne


When did I mention "Newage"? I meant a New Age in the sense of the industrial revolution. Personally I had no intention of bringing religion (of any kind) into this debate, so please be kind enough not to try to twist my words.

reply to post by thaknobodi


I'm not altogether clear on what you're saying there. You mean that it will always be a ruling class that control this sort of technology?

reply to post by jokei


Remember the good old days, when people supposedly lived for hundreds of years by the grace of who-the-F-knows what? Well those days are about to be inverted into a brave new world, of hate and "innocent-" collective-fueled shiny new Terminators. (tm)

Remember your "Triple C's." Coffee plus Crack equals Confusion.

www.youtube.com...

[edit on 6-1-2010 by thaknobodi]

Anything may be anything.

Follow the heart.

Reality is perception.

You have to give to take.

Balance.


-Ben