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interesting site on Mormons & Masons...

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posted on Jul, 13 2004 @ 03:19 PM
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Originally posted by metalmessiah
...btw can you give me one example where the inverted pentagram(baphomet) is used as a Christian symbol??? other than being plastered all over the mormon Temples?


Here are a just a few of the links that came up when I googled Christian+pentagram...



In Christian times:

The five points of the pentagram have been interpreted as representing the five wounds of Christ (2 wrist, 2 ankle and 1 side).
The Roman Emperor Constantine used the pentagram in his seal and amulet. 14
It has been referred to as the Star of Bethlehem
It was used to symbolize the star which allegedly led three Zoroastrian astrologers to the baby Jesus; it was called the Three Kings' star.
The English warrior Sir Gawain, a nephew of King Arthur, adopted the pentagram as his personal symbol and placed it on his shield. 7 It appeared in gold on a red background. The five points symbolized "the five knightly virtues - generosity, courtesy, chastity, chivalry and piety." 14
Tarot cards originally had a suit of coins or discs. These were changed in the 19th century to pentacles when the Tarot became associated with the Kabbalah. They eventually became the suit of diamonds in modern playing cards.
It has been widely used by past Christians as a protective amulet.
During the burning times when the Christian church burned alive or hung hundreds of thousands of innocent people, the meaning of the pentagram changed. It began to symbolize a goat's head or the devil in the form of Baphomet. "The folk-symbol of security - for the first time in history - was equated with evil and was called the Witch's Foot." 14


source: www.religioustolerance.org...




Christian Kabbalists, who tried to use Jewish mysticism to prove the divinity of Christ were especially enamored of the pentagram- to them, it symbolized Christ as the Holy Spirit manifest in the flesh. A favorite gematric feat was to add the Hebrew letter Shin (symbolizing fire and the holy spirit of pentecost) to the Biblical four letter name of God (YHVH, most commonly pronounced 'Jehovah') yielding YHShH- Y'heshua, or Jesus. (There is a secret biblical connection, as well, in the name of the Christian holiday of Pentecost- the day the Holy Spirit descended on the apostles of Jesus) In Freemasonry and related traditions, the pentagram is known as the "blazing star," and is sometimes symbolic of the descent of the divinity of Christ into the world of matter. In this, it represents the Star of Bethlehem.



There are many connections between the pentagram and Christianity. Before the cross, it was a preferred emblem to adorn jewelry and amulets. It was associated with the five wounds of Christ, and because it could be drawn in one continuous movement of the pen, the Alpha and the omega as one. It was also an expression of a secret Gnostic heresy, found hidden here and there throughout Christian history- a symbol of the secret goddess. The most notable instance of this symbolism is in the Arthurian Grail romances, which are Gnostic and kabbalistic teachings disguised as tales of knightly quests. The small, five petalled flowers found in many gothic cathedrals are secret pentagrams.

Many absurd connections have been made between the Satanic pentagram and the Masonic star by enthusiastic evangelicals, but it should be noted that the first association of the reversed pentacle with 'evil' is a relatively recent phenomenon. The 19th century magical scholar Eliphas Levi is the first known to have used the downward pointing pentacle with any negative meaning; it was not until the mid twentieth century that Levi's 'Mendes' pentacle that was adopted as an emblem of Satanism.


source: altreligion.about.com...

couldn't copy an exerpt, but here's another link:

www.fabrisia.com...



Up until medieval times, the five points of the pentagram represented the five wounds of Christ on the Cross. It was a symbol of Christ the Saviour. This is in stark contrast to today where the pentagram is criticized by modern Fundamentalist Christians, as being a symbol of evil.

The church eventually chose the cross as a more significant symbol for Christianity, and the use of the pentagram as a Christian symbol gradually ceased.


source: www.angelfire.com...




As an example of the Christian knightly symbolism of the pentagram, this site quotes from Gawain and the Green Knight, on the reason why Gawain's arms were a pentagram:

And I intend to tell you, though I tarry therefore,
Why the Pentangle is proper to this prince of knights.
It is a symbol which Solomon conceived once
To betoken holy truth, by its intrinsic right,
For it is a figure which has five points,
And each line overlaps and is locked with another;
And it is endless everywhere, and the English call it,
In all the land, I hear, the Endless Knot.


source: www.thornr.demon.co.uk...



The pentagram, when inverted (single point down, double points up), has been used as a symbolic depiction of the Horned God. In occult symbolism, this is akin to the Spirit of God taking on physical form in the world of matter. Interestingly, this corresponds in basic symbolism to the Christian cross, which is made up of the vertical line of Spirit descending into the horizontal line of the material world. The longer length of the vertical line below the horizontal one indicates the Spirit's entrapment in matter-Christ on the cross.


source: www.paganpride.org...

The last one shows how the Mormons could and I stress could have been thinking when incorporating the inverted stars on the pillars. Even the ones with the longer bottom point.

It looks to me like the pentagram was being used by Christians long before the Mormons built their temple... both upright AND inverted. Maybe you should do some research...










[edit on 7/13/04 by The Axeman]

[edit on 7/13/04 by The Axeman]




posted on Jul, 13 2004 @ 04:41 PM
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Originally posted by senrak
Actually I can. The so-called "inverted pentagram" or upside-down star, or 5-pointed star with one point down is a very ancient Christian symbol. It symbolises Christ coming to earth...the star with one point UP symbolizes him ascending to Heaven. ...but I don't expect you to believe this. You know only ONE meaning for it...evil...therefore it MUST be evil.


Isn't a pentagram a five pointed star with a circle around it? The Christian star has traditionally been a non-inverted star with a circle around it.

[edit on 13-7-2004 by oconnection]



posted on Jul, 13 2004 @ 08:24 PM
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Originally posted by oconnection

Isn't a pentagram a five pointed star with a circle around it? The Christian star has traditionally been a non-inverted star with a circle around it.


The Pentagram is any five-pointed, one dimensional geometric diagram, technically including pentagons, although usually depicted in a star-shape (it was used in this manner by Pythagoras and Plato as a symbol of the elements).

Later mystics added a circle surrounding it, which symbolizes infinity, although the circle is not necessary to qualify an object as a pentagram.

Fiat Lvx.



posted on Mar, 3 2006 @ 10:45 PM
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Originally posted by The Axeman

Originally posted by metalmessiah
...btw can you give me one example where the inverted pentagram(baphomet) is used as a Christian symbol??? other than being plastered all over the mormon Temples?


Here are a just a few of the links that came up when I googled Christian+pentagram...



In Christian times:

The five points of the pentagram have been interpreted as representing the five wounds of Christ (2 wrist, 2 ankle and 1 side).
The Roman Emperor Constantine used the pentagram in his seal and amulet. 14
It has been referred to as the Star of Bethlehem
It was used to symbolize the star which allegedly led three Zoroastrian astrologers to the baby Jesus; it was called the Three Kings' star.
The English warrior Sir Gawain, a nephew of King Arthur, adopted the pentagram as his personal symbol and placed it on his shield. 7 It appeared in gold on a red background. The five points symbolized "the five knightly virtues - generosity, courtesy, chastity, chivalry and piety." 14
Tarot cards originally had a suit of coins or discs. These were changed in the 19th century to pentacles when the Tarot became associated with the Kabbalah. They eventually became the suit of diamonds in modern playing cards.
It has been widely used by past Christians as a protective amulet.
During the burning times when the Christian church burned alive or hung hundreds of thousands of innocent people, the meaning of the pentagram changed. It began to symbolize a goat's head or the devil in the form of Baphomet. "The folk-symbol of security - for the first time in history - was equated with evil and was called the Witch's Foot." 14


source: www.religioustolerance.org...



[edit on 7/13/04 by The Axeman]

[edit on 7/13/04 by The Axeman]


Interesting links. From the links you posted some say that the inverted pentagram only became evil in the 20th century during the inquisition or whatever and others say the 19th century.. I guess I am not sure if and when there was a marking point when the inverted pentagram got negative accusations, but either way the inverted pentagram has negative accusations so why would organizations wan tot stand behind a symbol with such bad associations… why not just drop it and start fresh……



posted on Mar, 3 2006 @ 11:44 PM
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(quote)Actually I can. The so-called "inverted pentagram" or upside-down star, or 5-pointed star with one point down is a very ancient Christian symbol. It symbolises Christ coming to earth...the star with one point UP symbolizes him ascending to Heaven. ...but I don't expect you to believe this. You know only ONE meaning for it...evil...therefore it MUST be evil.

...oh ye closed-minded people.... hrug>


signature
Senrak
Past Master
32nd Degree K.C.C.H.
(/quote)

Senrak,
Can you show any evidence besides websites? Websites could have been written by people who have alterior motives, i.e. people who want to defend the use of the upside down star because of its use on their churches or in their masonic lodges. Can you perhaps provide evidence from the catholic church which has been around since the third century or from history books on the subject?

Please excuse if I missed your citations to history books. I'm not trying to be rude. I don't view masonic books as accepted historical sources.



posted on Mar, 4 2006 @ 01:21 AM
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Ok lemme try and clear this up for you,

As a former mormon by birth I think I may have some insight as to why they get smeared so much. First off although I don't agree with the religion in many ways it's easy from a straddling the middle perspective to see why they are maligned.

Unlike catholics baptists protestants and mullahs... the rank and file every holy day preachers are not paid in ANY way. (well hypothetically speaking and discounting a rapidly growing good ole boys network that is always a financial boost to even the low ranking clergy in the mormon church) As a matter of fact NO mormon clergy are paid positions even their head honcho.

Now if this were any other business (which I assure you most churches keep a keen eye on the bottom line and the cost of a new lease on a cadillac) it's competitors would find it scandalous and heretical.

Get the picture yet?

the Mormons are the scabs (aka people that cross the union picket line, of religion)



posted on Mar, 4 2006 @ 08:56 AM
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Originally posted by arius
Senrak,
Can you show any evidence besides websites? Websites could have been written by people who have alterior motives, i.e. people who want to defend the use of the upside down star because of its use on their churches or in their masonic lodges. Can you perhaps provide evidence from the catholic church which has been around since the third century or from history books on the subject?
Please excuse if I missed your citations to history books. I'm not trying to be rude. I don't view masonic books as accepted historical sources.


Actually senrak is a banned member...i.e. no longer on this site...and why is a thread that's over a YEAR old being dredged up? Remember the rule of thumb here...if it's not on page 1, it's old news.


That being said, Try to put a little logic into your thinking. You say "Websites could have been written by people who have alterior motives," Could not BOOK have been written by people with ulterior motives?

So, why would you believe a book over a web-site? As far as the Catholic Church's point of view, I personally wouldn't know where to start. I suppose if one were interested enough he could go to a Catholic library (there are numerous ones at Catholic Seminaries) and start there. The Catholic Encyclopedia (an excellent resource) is available on line for free, but if you're skeptical of web-sites, I guess that would leave them out.

But why do you not consider Masonic books as acceptable historical sources? I find them to be EXCELLENT historical sources, particularly in the area of *ahem* Masonic history.


By the way, you didn't ask me (you asked a former member) but as far as a good source I have a copy of "Signs & Symbols: An Illustrated Guide to Their Meaning and Origins" by Clare Gibson ISBN 0-7607-0217-9

It's not written by a Mason (or the Roman Church for that matter) but it is an excellent source of history/origin of numerous signs and symbols. In my library I have several other books with similar information (many of them actually Masonic so you wouldn't like those) However the problem with them not being available on-line is that either

a: you have to get a copy for yourself and read it or
b: someone with a copy has to do your research for you and report back via ATS.


I do not mean to be rude, but

c: I have neither the time nor the inclination to do so.

Best,

appak


[edit on 4-3-2006 by Appak]



posted on Mar, 4 2006 @ 07:40 PM
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They are very few groups in the world that are truly in tune with the mysteries of GOD. The Mormons are the closest true christian church on earth today. In the early days it was the ESSENES and the CATHARS. The Mormons are 12 million strong and growing. They have persevered the most abominable hatreds ever unleashed on mankind, yet they have flourished. The light will always overshadow darkness. If it were of the devil, the church would surely have fallen years ago.
There are many people out there that see some similarities between Mormon beliefs and Masonic principles. Thank goodness there are still decent people in the world that still love mankind and practice what they preach. It should be understood that the mysteries are not to be understood by the profane and never will, no matter what DAVID ICKE and his followers have said. There is no REAL PROOF of anything he has spoken to in his books.

The previous mentioned two groups know and understood in great complexity of the language of JAHOVAH. The TRIANGLE is the STARGATE to the perfect light. This is God's language to all mankind. Because of Adam's fall, man is, but still he falls short. Masonry seeks to reconnect man with the Creator. Mormonism does the same, but in a more purer form. My stomach churns when someone makes a post lamenting ideas and imperfections of nonsense, and in turn defines a statement that relect a single digit IQ.

I am a Morman, a 32 degree Scottish Rite Mason, Knight Templar and Royal Arch Mason and belong to many spinoff masonic organizations. I am a direct descendant of men who brought forth light to open the path of charity and brotherly love. Men who drew forth the breath of Christ into their being. They were warriors of the true Christian Church and fought to protect it to the grave. These type of men still exist today increasingly giving of their time and loyality to many causes and in addition help stop the suffering of those less fortunate. They acknowledge the Great Architect of the Universe by keeping and practicing these moral principles. The Masonic degrees are the moral lessons to constantly remind him of his lowlyness and his duty his brothers and to God. Masonry seeks to make good men better.



posted on Mar, 4 2006 @ 08:37 PM
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So if an upside-down pentagram is considered to represent Christ descending into matter, than why is it that this inverted pentagram, or even a pentagram that has a cut in it is always used in selfish spell casting and the divine-man pentagram (2-points down and one point up) cannot EVER be used to harm another in selfish spell casting? When I use Gabriel’s star of protection I ALWAYS draw it with 2 –points down – always – you never use an upside-down pentagram unless you wish to create an inversion and imply a will that is not in accordance with divine love.

How come negative elementals or curses show up on the chakras (as seen by clairvoyants) as black or blue inverted pentagrams and not Divine-Man pentagrams?

Can any of you explain that to me?



[edit on 4-3-2006 by markusjharper]



posted on Mar, 4 2006 @ 09:08 PM
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Originally posted by markusjharper
When I use Gabriel’s star of protection I ALWAYS draw it with 2 –points down – always – you never use an upside-down pentagram unless you wish to create an inversion and imply a will that is not in accordance with divine love.
Can any of you explain that to me?
[edit on 4-3-2006 by markusjharper]


Mark,

Where in the *ahem* rule book does it say that one point down is "upside down" or two points down is "right side up"? Where has that EVER been officially defined?

If a square is presented with one corner down, one corner up, one corner pointing to the right and one to the left....is it STILL a "square" ? Hmm? Or is it some evil symbol? A star, pentagram, pentagon, dodecahedron, etc etc is a geometrical shape with a certain amount of sides...who defined how it should be positioned?

Yeah...that's what I thought.







posted on Mar, 4 2006 @ 09:10 PM
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anyone can easily state a pentagram that is upside down or right side up can well interpret as Lucifer like. earth, wind, fire, water, heart. the five elements


No. The Christian cross (which pre-dates Christ's coming into flesh)represents the 4 elements: ether, fire, water, and earth. Ether must always be on top. If the cross is inverted, than it places matter over ether and that is a representation of Satan/Ahriman/Shamael/Lucifer etc.

The pentagram is something different. The inverted pentagram is the opposite of the star of Gabriel and that is Shamael/Lucifer. Lucifer started the Pagan mysteries and it was the Luciferic wisdom that allowed the majority of Christians to comprehend the Christ event. Around the year 333, we began to lose this Luciferic wisdom and plunged into spiritual darkness. Am I saying that the inverted star is always evil? Well not always evil but it is lacking the Christ counter balance and so I chose to avoid upside-down pentagrams because they are a perversion of the Divine-Man.

The inverted star represents gnostic LUCIFERIC wisdom and some groups like Lucifer Trust are open about it. I have more respect for them – cause at least they are honest and not so sarcastic like this curiously new poster, eh Appak?




[edit on 4-3-2006 by markusjharper]



posted on Mar, 4 2006 @ 09:50 PM
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The Mormons are the closest true christian church on earth today. In the early days it was the ESSENES and the CATHARS. The Mormons are 12 million strong and growing. They have persevered the most abominable hatreds ever unleashed on mankind, yet they have flourished. The light will always overshadow darkness. If it were of the devil, the church would surely have fallen years ago.


declair,

Although, Mormons are the closest true Christian church, as an esoteric Christian I still prefer "no church as an organization" and tend more toward the Anthroposophy movement and the schools of Rudolf Steiner's line of wisdom in direct working with Archangel Michael. The Templar Knights and Masons were organised, yet the mystic Protestant, Rosicrucian and alchemist sects were more so scattered and struggled (without relying upon using corrupted quasi-Aristotle wisdom based upon Al Rashid, Roger Bacon, or Francis Bacon's ideas) – Anthroposophy follows in line with Goethe and Thomas Aquinas etc.



[edit on 4-3-2006 by markusjharper]



posted on Mar, 5 2006 @ 07:22 AM
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Originally posted by markusjharper
The inverted star represents gnostic LUCIFERIC wisdom and some groups like Lucifer Trust are open about it. I have more respect for them – cause at least they are honest and not so sarcastic like this curiously new poster, eh Appak?


It wasn't meant to be sarcastic, markusjharper. Sorry you took it that way. That's one of the breakdowns in electronic communication.

I may be new at *posting* here, but I've lurked this site for a LONG time with great interest...and I've gotten a lot of chuckles out of it too. Particularly from those who claim to know so much about Masonry and it's evil ways, yet they spout the same unsubstantiated nonsense that anti-Masons and conspiracy theorists have said for years. But I digress...

I asked before and I will ask again. Who defined the "star" being upside down or right-side up? Who says one point up is correct and one point down is inverted? Who? and by what authority? You say it represents "gnostic luciferic wisdom" To whom? Is it universal? Symbols can represent ANYTHING their user wants them to. Just because some group (whether it exists or not...) adopts a certain symbol doesn't mean that it symbolizes ONLY what they say. In some Christian symbolism the star with one point down represents Christ, descended to earth...doesn't sound too evil....or "luciferic"

As for Lucifer...check out "Venus" not "Satan" but that's another discussion entirely.



[edit on 5-3-2006 by Appak]



posted on Mar, 6 2006 @ 04:47 PM
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I didn't notice that the post by Senrak was over a year old. You blamed me with bringing it up again. I didn't I just posted.

I think that you reacted to my post with your emotions instead of calmly replying. I never attacked your logic. You also misinterpreted my post. I did not say that all websites were not to be trusted. If you completely read my post you would have understood that I spoke about websites that might have been written by people who have motivations to prove there opinions.

I said "history books". History books used in institutions of public learning are by definition subject to peer review by persons who have legitimate PHD's and the such behind their names. That being said books of fiction or books of opinion are also not accepted sources. I mentioned the Catholic church as they have been around since the earliest centuries of the Church. History cites them as having existed during the times which you stated that this symbol was used and I was simply trying to find out if you have any source from them that says the inverted pentagram was a sign of Christianity.

By contrast peer reviewed history and historical texts reveal that the fish symbol was used by early Christians, however I have never found any peer reviewed historical sources citing the inverted pentagram as a sign of Christianity.

Books published by groups like the masons are not historically accurate because they do not stand up to peer review by historians. You seem very sure of yourself and have yet to show any historical sources "peer reviewed that back up your assertation that the inverted pentagram was used as a sign of Christianity. I think it is because you cannot prove your opinions and you know it so you simply retreat behind the statement that you have neither the time nor the inclination to do so.

I am not attacking your beliefs in any way. I assume that perhaps you may be mormon and perhaps a mason or that you have some in your family. My wife told me that you did not write like a man so that would mean that you are not a mason but are maybe researching it or have family members who are masons. Either way I am not attacking you but simply trying to point out that you are writing and thinking from an emotional point of view.

I also find it illogical to say the following:
if the mormon church were not of god it would have fallen long ago

when the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, The Greek Orthodox Church, The Anglican Church, The Episcopalian Church, The Presbyterian Church, The Methodist Church, The Southern Baptist Church and numerous others have been around much longer, surely if these Churches were not of God they would have fallen long ago.

also consider the hindu philosophy, buddhism, Judaism and numerous others have been around longer than all of them.

this is not a personal attack. I am not trying to attack anyones beliefs. I am just trying to think logically. That's what ATS is about. This thread is about mormons and the inverted pentagram.

just a thought



posted on Mar, 6 2006 @ 08:26 PM
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Originally posted by arius
I didn't notice that the post by Senrak was over a year old. You blamed me with bringing it up again. I didn't I just posted.


Actually I NEVER said "arius, why did YOU dredge up a thread that's over a year old?" I never called you by name at all. If you'll re-read the post I think you'll see that. Anyway, I certainly didn't mean to hurt your feelings.



I think that you reacted to my post with your emotions instead of calmly replying.


I'm sorry think that. I didn't. That's a break-down in electronic communication...the intent/inflection cannot be fully understood. But believe me, there were NO emotions in my post...it was PURELY calm replying on my part.



You also misinterpreted my post. I did not say that all websites were not to be trusted. If you completely read my post you would have understood that I spoke about websites that might have been written by people who have motivations to prove there opinions.


Sorry. It seemed you were dismissing the accuracy of any/all websites, perhaps clarification will help in the future.



I said "history books". History books used in institutions of public learning are by definition subject to peer review by persons who have legitimate PHD's and the such behind their names.


Actually ANYONE can write a history book. One must not necessarily be a PhD or have ANYTHING "behind their name."

One should know something about the subject and be able to do viable research and document ones findings. That's really all it takes...and TONS of Masonic writers have done this and have written numerous Masonic "History" books. Several of them are quite good.



That being said books of fiction or books of opinion are also not accepted sources.


No, I could see how they wouldn't be. Thanks for pointing that out, though.



I mentioned the Catholic church as they have been around since the earliest centuries of the Church.


Absolutely. In fact they were THE Christian Church.



History cites them as having existed during the times which you stated that this symbol was used and I was simply trying to find out if you have any source from them that says the inverted pentagram was a sign of Christianity.


I said it symbolized Christ descended to earth (i.e. coming down from Heaven) NOT that it was a sign OF Christianity, itself. The Rose is often utilized as a sign of Christ (the Rose of Sharon) but not necessarily for the Christian faith. And, yes, I do have sources. I do not make this stuff up...far too busy for that sort of thing. There are several books in my very own library, but please give me time to dig them out...I don't have them at my fingertips at the moment.



By contrast peer reviewed history and historical texts reveal that the fish symbol was used by early Christians, however I have never found any peer reviewed historical sources citing the inverted pentagram as a sign of Christianity.


Your having never found them doesn't preclude their existence, though.



Books published by groups like the masons are not historically accurate because they do not stand up to peer review by historians.


Got anything to back up that statement? that's pretty bold. MANY Masonic books are accurate and written by very intelligent people (some of them even PhD's) And I'm NOT talking about garbage like The Hiram Key or DaVinci's Code. Those silly books were a waste of paper & ink.



You seem very sure of yourself


Well, I know some things.




and have yet to show any historical sources


Ouch! One post to you and I've "yet to show" LOL! Sorry I don't have the time to scan several books into PDF and post links to them. I'd love to help, but at best I will give you some titles/authors ASAP. Most of the books may be borrowed through an inter-library loan or can be found on Amazon.com or other used book seller.




I think it is because you cannot prove your opinions and you know it so you simply retreat behind the statement that you have neither the time nor the inclination to do so.


Sorry you think that, but how does one "prove" ones "opinion" LOL! Oh well, you seem to have made up your mind anyway. 'tis a shame.



I am not attacking your beliefs in any way.


Thanks. Especially since you don't know what they are.



I assume that perhaps you may be mormon and perhaps a mason or that you have some in your family.


I don't see what that has to do with the topic at hand. Please explain why my possible Lodge membership or personal faith come into play. I thought we were talking about a symbol.




My wife told me that you did not write like a man


[excuse me I almost choked] Your WIFE TOLD YOU? That's hilarious. Well, I'm sure she'll hate to know it, but she's badly mistaken (and I fail to see what difference it makes).



so that would mean that you are not a mason


Might me. Might not. Again, why does that matter?



but are maybe researching it or have family members who are masons.


Could be, but why on earth would I be on THIS site "researching"?



Either way I am not attacking you


and I'm not attacking you. I don't even know you.



but simply trying to point out that you are writing and thinking from an emotional point of view.


Nope. You've completely misinterpreted it. Sorry you missed my intent.



I also find it illogical to say the following:
if the mormon church were not of god it would have fallen long ago


I never said that. Who did? I have no interest at all in the LDS faith.



when the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, The Greek Orthodox Church, The Anglican Church, The Episcopalian Church, The Presbyterian Church, The Methodist Church, The Southern Baptist Church and numerous others have been around much longer, surely if these Churches were not of God they would have fallen long ago.
also consider the hindu philosophy, buddhism, Judaism and numerous others have been around longer than all of them.


Well...your statement is a bit convoluted but I get the point...and again, I NEVER said anything about ANY church ceasing to exist if it weren't of G*d. Perhaps you're confusing a post someone else placed with one of mine.



this is not a personal attack. I am not trying to attack anyones beliefs.


Yes, you've said that. Thank you. And neither am I. I don't care at all what someone else believes as I won't be held responsible for the actions/beliefs of others. I'm simply here for discussion. That's OK, right?



I am just trying to think logically.


Excellent.



That's what ATS is about.


Well, according to the FAQ you're right, but according to the vast majority of posts over the last few years, I'd beg to differ. Perhaps you can get it back on course. Interesting that you're such an expert on ATS when you seem to have registered TWO FULL DAYS before me. Although I have lurked here on and off since late '04, perhaps you have too.



This thread is about mormons and the inverted pentagram.


Actually the title is "interesting site on Mormons and Masons" but anyway.

Allow me to re-ask what I asked in a follow up post:

"Who defined the pentagram (star) with one point down as being "upside down?"

Where is the rule about how stars point?

And if it IS upside down and SOME people interpret it as evil/satanic etc. Why does it have to be UNIVERSAL? Some symbols actually symbolize more than one thing. To some the dove symbolizes peace...in some flavours of the Christian religion it symbolizes the Holy Spirit.

Good post, by the way
I love this sort of thread.

-Appak





[edit on 6-3-2006 by Appak]



posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 12:31 PM
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On this same logic, the United States worships 50 devils. Just look at the flag!

Each State that is inducted into the Union adds one more devil to the super-secret-devil-worship that is subliminally taught at public schools and through the secretly-satanic-government-controlled media.

Gimme a break. Mormons believe in three degrees of heaven. Here's the breakdown:

Top - "Celestial Kingdom" - Signified by the Sun, since it is the brightest naturally occurring object with which we come in contact, implying that this is the best place to be. Those who live righteously return to live directly in the presence of God the Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.

Middle - "Terrestial Kingdom" - Signified by the Moon, since it is the second-brightest naturally occurring object with which we come in contact, implying that this is the second-best place to be. Those who postpone living righteously do NOT return to live directly in the presence of God the Father. They receive visist Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. Since the people who go here do not live in the presence of God the Father, this is categorized by Mormons as a type of "Hell" since you will still feel the pains of having failed to return to God.

Bottom - "Telestial Kingdom" - Signified by the Stars, since they are the least bright naturally occurring objects with which we come in contact, implying that this is the third-best place to be. Those who never accept Jesus Christ in this life or after they are given a second chance after they die go here. They do not live in the presence of God or Jesus Christ, and receive visits from the Holy Ghost. This is a higher level of removal from God's presence, also defined as a type of "Hell."

Mormons also believe in an "Outer Darkness" where you are so distanced from God that those who are sent here feel absolutely nothing of his presence. According to the Mormon Church, only those who have committed the Ultimate Sin go here. The Ultimate Sin is acquiring a perfect knowledge of the existance of God and then denying it. Since the vast majority of people go through life with only a faith in the existance of God, there are very few people who go here.

Mormons believe that most people on Earth will receive a small degree of happiness (Telestial Kingdom) after this life due to the belief that all of us lived in the presence of God before coming to Earth. There was a War in Heaven, and those that rebelled against God (one-third) became Fallen Angels. Those that sided with God (two-thirds) were given the chance to come to Earth. Because of the choice to side with God, we all receive the bare minimum of happiness after this life. However, that happiness may not include living with God again, which, according to Mormons, is what hell actually is.

The idea of Fire and Brimstone and Pitchforks really only came around after Dante Alighieri wrote the non-religious, fictional story of Inferno, Purgatory and Paradise. For some reason, the Catholic Church adopted it as religion, and so today Mainstream Christian Society feels that hell has to be a fiery, physically painful place, when in actuality it is a spiritual pain caused by being moved from God's presence.

Anyway, I'm just posting what the Mormon Church teaches because that's what the thread is about. I'm not debating its truth - just stating the facts. If you wanna get a good, in-depth, yes concise book about what Mormons believe, pick up Mormonism for Dummies. Yes, they actually made Mormonism for Dummies.



posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 03:58 PM
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Great reply. I think I kinda like the way you think. Sorry if I offended you on anything. In retrospect the "my wife told me statement" was kinda funny. Also I knew that you didn't make the statement about the mormon church I should have made some distinction.

The sources in your private library you mentioned. When you have time I would appreciate a list of some good books on the subject of masons and the like. I'm keeping an open mind but require that the information which helps me form my opinions stand up to scientific and logical reasoning. If you would just U2U me the info on the books.



posted on Mar, 7 2006 @ 07:30 PM
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Originally posted by arius
Great reply. I think I kinda like the way you think. Sorry if I offended you on anything. In retrospect the "my wife told me statement" was kinda funny. Also I knew that you didn't make the statement about the mormon church I should have made some distinction.

The sources in your private library you mentioned. When you have time I would appreciate a list of some good books on the subject of masons and the like. I'm keeping an open mind but require that the information which helps me form my opinions stand up to scientific and logical reasoning. If you would just U2U me the info on the books.


Thanks arius! I'll be glad to (when I get enough posts to actually send a U2U) ...one of the short-comings of this list.



posted on Mar, 8 2006 @ 10:39 PM
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I asked before and I will ask again. Who defined the "star" being upside down or right-side up? Who says one point up is correct and one point down is inverted? Who? and by what authority? You say it represents "gnostic luciferic wisdom" To whom? Is it universal? Symbols can represent ANYTHING their user wants them to. Just because some group (whether it exists or not...) adopts a certain symbol doesn't mean that it symbolizes ONLY what they say. In some Christian symbolism the star with one point down represents Christ, descended to earth...doesn't sound too evil....or "luciferic"

As for Lucifer...check out "Venus" not "Satan" but that's another discussion entirely.


Appak,

I do respect your opinion but I must correct you, as a grave mistake you make in saying that it does not matter which way the pentagram is displayed.

I'll tell you that it has less to do with Lucifer, as Lucifer is not necessarily evil; and more to do with Geotia and that is evil, period.

For the people who would not understand this - it is not only a fact but it is my duty to correct you and say once more that it does not matter what the group claims - nor their intentions - just as so above, so below and if you play with fire even in innocence, it can still burn.

A symbol cannot be used ignorantly without some consequence and the inverted or corrupted pentagram is evil - it cannot EVER be claimed as neutral or good. Not only will Elias Levi, Rudolf Steiner, Samael Aun Weor, Goethe and many others confirm this, even other non-Christianized groups like Israel Regardie/Mather's Order of the Golden Dawn knew this truth. The spirit of Christ comes down to us from the etheric - it does need to meet the material definition, as that is what zionists call " the second coming into flesh" and I not approve of this opinion.

Just because a group uses it one way today and another way tomorrow, it does not change the meaning of the symbol. We must be clear about this -yes, it can be said as something relative (imagine standing on your head) but the relation to man is not relative to a website, or ceremony and if placed inverted on a website and when used in connection to an esoteric society like the O.E.S, there can be no excuse for not knowing this. If it is only a little mistake and (yet it’s still on their website) and on the Republican logo also, than might I suggest that neither place is the lodge to be joining!



posted on Mar, 8 2006 @ 11:07 PM
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Originally posted by The Axeman


In Christian times:

The five points of the pentagram have been interpreted as representing the five wounds of Christ (2 wrist, 2 ankle and 1 side).
The Roman Emperor Constantine used the pentagram in his seal and amulet. 14
It has been referred to as the Star of Bethlehem
It was used to symbolize the star which allegedly led three Zoroastrian astrologers to the baby Jesus; it was called the Three Kings' star.
The English warrior Sir Gawain, a nephew of King Arthur, adopted the pentagram as his personal symbol and placed it on his shield. 7 It appeared in gold on a red background. The five points symbolized "the five knightly virtues - generosity, courtesy, chastity, chivalry and piety." 14
Tarot cards originally had a suit of coins or discs. These were changed in the 19th century to pentacles when the Tarot became associated with the Kabbalah. They eventually became the suit of diamonds in modern playing cards.
It has been widely used by past Christians as a protective amulet.
During the burning times when the Christian church burned alive or hung hundreds of thousands of innocent people, the meaning of the pentagram changed. It began to symbolize a goat's head or the devil in the form of Baphomet. "The folk-symbol of security - for the first time in history - was equated with evil and was called the Witch's Foot." 14


source: www.religioustolerance.org...


Bingo.

Just goes to show what an interesting life cycle this supposedly "evil" symbol has experienced.

The pentagram is no more "evil" than a company logo or a portrait of bugs bunny.

[edit on 9-3-2006 by Roark]




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