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Do all of these Holocaust museums serve a purpose anymore?

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posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 10:07 PM
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reply to post by Donny 4 million
 





If you are not paying for them then what do you care

Why don't you read the ENTIRE thread before you make comments that have already been addressed? You waste everyone's time.




posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 10:18 PM
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reply to post by ProfEmeritus
 


Because it is quite boring.
I edited my post . You were to quick at the switch for my slow lasy ass dial up line. (not me).
Would it hurt to update me? And the membership?
Am I paying for another countries business?



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 12:16 AM
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I believe the issue is not about the Holocaust event itself. The issue is about using tax-payer funded money to help build museums which commemorate events that did not directly involve the country in which they are being built. The museums belong in countries that harboured the Nazi regime and sort to eradicate certain minorities. People living in these countries should be reminded, NOT blamed and shamed, that their ancestors allowed or encouraged these events to occur. If they are not educated about the events that transpired, they are at risk of letting them happen again.

If you want to debate whether the Holocaust did or did not take place, you are in the wrong thread. If you want to plant doubts about the events in an attempt to undermine the legitimacy of the state of Israel, you are in the wrong thread.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 12:42 AM
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reply to post by Donny 4 million
 


as one who would have been killed before the first jewish person was put into a camp, and not mentioned, i do find it important that "my" (in quotes cas you KNOW it ain't OURS nomore nohow, if it ever was...) government spending money to kowtow to a small special interest group that uses the holocaust to justify their own apartheid and yes, genocide against another people. anyone dares to speak up? anti-semite! nazi! jew-hater! we went thru the HOLOCAUST! shame on you for forgetting! not all jewish people are zionists, not all zionists are jewish people. but some of the most ardent are secular jews who encourage the religious in illegal settlements to be the front line.

"a land without PEOPLE (?!?!?) for a people without land."
and the heroes of israel were horrid terrorists to the british to escape colonial rule, lest we forget. Never again? Let zionists remember those words in regards to the palestinians- be they christian, muslim or otherwise... genocide is genocide, no matter who the players are. do we let a serial killer go free because of a bad childhood? the same ones who decry the victim defence often are the most ardent israel v palestinian supporters. i am most definitely not excusing any attacks upon civilians, but if someone came for you and bulldozed your home and started firing on your civilian neighbors, friends, family?- would you not resist? even the jews of warzaw famously resisted.

Never Again. I concur wholeheartedly! to ANYONE.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 12:42 AM
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It's not a matter of events, it's a matter of etymology. I disagree with the terms you are using. It's as simple as that.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 01:21 AM
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my view is the holocoaust was goin to happen in the states in the 1930's...
they failed,, then moved it over to germany,,,

prescott bush an his asscociates....

btw ron paul is a freemason, his daughters are rainbow girls,

freemasons were persecuted in the holocaust aswell,,, it's a little bit different as to who is good and who is bad.....

as some on this site would blame freemason zionists or whatever at the core of such events....

i only pose these pieces of info in this order, as food for thought, nothing else...

[edit on 5-1-2010 by tripulation666]



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 01:36 AM
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Reply to post by ProfEmeritus
 


I think it's most poignant in that it was the first and HOPEFULLY last example of industrialized approach to genocide. Those camps were quite literally "death factories", brutality made efficient on a scale that must NEVER be forgotten as it stands head and shoulders ABOVE anything before or after. If anything we need more museums IMHO. I can think of no reason it should ever be forgot.


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 04:19 AM
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Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
www.forward.com...

The purpose of this thread is NOT to discuss whether the holocaust existed. I believe that it did, while others may disagree.
I would like to know whether after 65 years, with the Nazi regime long dead, and almost all of the survivors deceased, whether there are other causes that are more pressing.


Nazism is far from being dead. Actually such an article is a living proof of a new wave of neo-nazism in the US, which follows a major spread in many European countries, along with closet neo-Nazi governments in Italy, Germany, as well as most East European nations except probably Serbia, and now Greece. To say that Hitler's nazi regime is long dead is a sophism, as Nazism was NOT limited to Nazi Germany, and it was perpetuated in the western world in both clandestine and institutional ways.

I also doubt that there are so many Holocaust survivors that are diseased. Many of them were still young near the end of the Nazi regime when the mass extermination happened...

Of course, if American Natives could have the possibility to make museums about the genocide of their people, they'd sure do it, and you'd have it in almost every single country of America. I'd say they should make museums on White supremacism, racism and segregation and how these are responsible for the butchery of billions of people over the last few centuries.

AS to the question whether all these Holocaust museums are still relevant, I would answer you with a question: What's your problem with Holocaust museums in the US?

More specifically, how are they compromising your system of beliefs?

It seems to be a common thing these days that neo-Nazis are hiding themselves behind some made-up "issues" that are indirectly serving their political agenda, such as the famous "illegal immigrants problem"... Could you be one of these, perhaps?

[edit on 5/1/10 by Echtelion]



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 06:07 AM
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Originally posted by Echtelion

Nazism is far from being dead. Actually such an article is a living proof of a new wave of neo-nazism in the US, which follows a major spread in many European countries, along with closet neo-Nazi governments in Italy, Germany, as well as most East European nations except probably Serbia, and now Greece. To say that Hitler's nazi regime is long dead is a sophism, as Nazism was NOT limited to Nazi Germany, and it was perpetuated in the western world in both clandestine and institutional ways.


You do make an important point here. Nazism as an ideology, culture and way of life is far from dead - very far. You have so many groups of Neo-Nazis and White Surpemists spread throughout the world. You have black people being beaten up by skinheads in middle America. You have religious Jews being spat on and assaulted in South Russia. You have Nigerians and Pakistanis being beat up and intimidated in West Germany. You have Muslims in Eastern Australia that are harassed and intimidated by Neo-Nazi groups and white supremacists. The institutionalised government body that was Nazi Germany has been destroyed. But the ideas and values of that government and the ideology behind it are very much alive.

However, continually highlighting the plight suffered by Jews while failing to acknowledge the deaths and mistreatments of other minorities also affected will only increase anti-Jewish sentiment and trivialise the pain and suffering the victims went through. Thus, building museums about Nazi Germany in the USA when that country did not take part in Nazi Government policies is unnecessary. The museums are needed more in the countries that DID enact Nazi Government policies, not those that helped liberate those under oppression of the policies.

[edit on 5/1/2010 by Dark Ghost]



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 07:48 AM
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reply to post by DeathShield
 


Well then, this may come as a surprise to you then.. Auschwitz



When the number of Jews gassed at Auschwitz was downgraded from 4 million to 1 million why did the total number of Holocaust victims remain at 6 million?

This defies the simple logic of mathematics.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 08:21 AM
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Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
America had no part in the Holocaust. We don't NEED to be "reminded".


Actually, if I am not mistaken, the West had a pathetic role, insofar as it did little to help those trying to escape the regime. One Canadian is well known for his reply "None is too many" when asked how many Jews should be allowed into Canada. The story Voyage of the Damned illustrates how one ship was returned to Hitler's Germany after being refuses entry by the US and others.

I'm no fan of Israel, and as a Kraut I'm tired of being pilloried for the Holocaust, but I think it is important that it be remembered, and may be representative of all the horror that folks can do to each other.

I don't plan on attending any Holocaust Museums myself...but I remain aware of how both my father and myself were told by WASPs, that the only thing Hitler did wrong was that he didn't get all of them.

Perhaps each one of those museums should have an exhibit on the way out asking "What have we learned since?"



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 08:44 AM
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Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
reply to post by Donny 4 million
 





If you are not paying for them then what do you care

Why don't you read the ENTIRE thread before you make comments that have already been addressed? You waste everyone's time.


Like you don't have the time. You opened this rather silly thread. You should be happy for any bump you can get.
You say American tax dollars pay for holocaust museums.
Other members say Jewish folks pay for them.
Who is correct? Any numbers?
Would you be in favor of incorporating the holocaust into museums that honor the Americans that shut those camps down?



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 08:51 AM
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I would much rather see museums which celebrate LIFE as opposed to DEATH. Sure, it happened. it sucked. Get over it...



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 08:53 AM
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reply to post by ProfEmeritus
 


Replying from a location less than 2 miles from the Civil Rights Museum in Birmingham, I can vouch for the importance of museums like it to keep the memories alive after the survivors and witnesses are gone.

The loss of these people makes the museum much more important to future generations to know what has occurred, how important America's contribution to the defeat of the Germans was, and what relationships the world powers have had in the past.

History can be told by eyewitnesses, recorded and kept now, and we should preserve these accounts, photos, and other documentation as well as possible.

After all, the right documents might settle many debates right here on ATS, if only we had them, and they confirmed one another, right?

Why not let these people tell their stories, preserve them, and NEVER FORGET?

I should mention, as well, that the Civil Rights monument, in Montgomery, Alabama, eloquently honors slain civil rights workers, and is absolutely ethereal in its power, beauty, and assembly. It's hard to forget when the image and focus are so correct and so very profound. I'll try to find a photo.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 09:02 AM
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Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
reply to post by dereks
 





So how many museums about the other events have you started? Or are you waiting for someone else to do it?

The reason is that I don't believe that we should have ANY museums for such purposes, save perhaps the treatment of the American Indians, which was a disgrace perpetrated by people in this land.
Not only did the US NOT cause the holocaust, it was our troops that liberated many of the camps, and risked their lives doing it.
There is no NEED to "remind" us about man's inhumanity in this instance, because our country was not responsible, and did not contribute to it.
Untrue, in the years prior to the Second World War, the United States knew of the Nazis persecutions of the Jews in Nazi Germany and only opened our borders to a few thousand refugees. Later as the War started the US could have absorbed Europe's Jewish population easily. WE DIDN'T! The US Immigration Quotas in the mid Thirties to the Forties were a contributing factor that led to the Holocaust. The US locked up Americans of Japanese descent in internment camps such as Manzanar.

[edit on 5-1-2010 by PGTWEED]



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 09:04 AM
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Interesting article I found on a Holocaust museum with an alleged anti-Semite overseeing it. Crazy. This site is the Southern Poverty Law Center, where the Civil Rights Memorial is, and the page contains maps of hate groups, links to pages about their numbers, agenda, beliefs, etc. It's worth checking out for those who are interested, and also has images of the Wall of Tolerance and the Memorial, designed by Maya Lin, no less.

www.splcenter.org...



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 09:08 AM
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reply to post by Copperflower
 

Just in case folks think that it doesn't matter.

It only took four little girls to make it matter to us here in Birmingham. So much for numbers...who could forget? Who would want to risk forgetting?

We are, most of us, a bit more respectful of different races, and often careful to mind one another's dignity about racial issues around here because of our bloody and shameful past. It allows us a reason to deliberately get along, and quash racism when it pops its ugly head up, as it certainly does.

We may argue, disagree, become disgusted with one another, but it's always clear that race better not have anything to do with it. Funny how that worked out...



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 09:23 AM
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Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
reply to post by Freeborn
 





Of course they do, they serve as a poignant reminder of man's inhumanity to man.

Then why don't we have 16 museums depicting how the Romans threw the Christians to the lions?


Well its simple:

Because if you go to an excavation site that has roman artifacts, monuments, documents, etc, they at as a solid proof of real history; the why, where, what and who are all there, and you can check it with your own eyes, so theres no need to REMIND you of anything since... its still there...

As for the holocaust... well you cant really do the same thing can you?
So you have to be constantly reminded of it, cause you know, some humans have what we call a "selective memory" for bs... and sometimes we forget the bs we're told... then you need to be reminded again,... sometimes lies dont really stick and altho some people think otherwise, telling the same lie over and over and over and over again, doesnt make it true.

Romans = Real history, facts, no covers
Holocaust = well... whatever you want to believe



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 10:17 AM
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Originally posted by Copperflower
Interesting article I found on a Holocaust museum with an alleged anti-Semite overseeing it. Crazy. This site is the Southern Poverty Law Center, where the Civil Rights Memorial is, and the page contains maps of hate groups, links to pages about their numbers, agenda, beliefs, etc. It's worth checking out for those who are interested, and also has images of the Wall of Tolerance and the Memorial, designed by Maya Lin, no less.

www.splcenter.org...


Do you have any idea where the museum for the murders of Tzar Nicolie,
his wife, several children and the millions of folks destroyed by the Bolsheviks will be?
Maybe there is one I don't know about?



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 12:15 PM
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reply to post by Echtelion
 





I also doubt that there are so many Holocaust survivors that are diseased. Many of them were still young near the end of the Nazi regime when the mass extermination happened...



As to your first sentence above, I never said that most were diseased. I said that most were deceased, and I stand by that statement.






AS to the question whether all these Holocaust museums are still relevant, I would answer you with a question: What's your problem with Holocaust museums in the US?

As to your question about the Holocaust museums and my rationale for my stance, I have already stated that I do not believe taxpayer dollars should be used for ANY such museum.


Of course, if American Natives could have the possibility to make museums about the genocide of their people, they'd sure do it, and you'd have it in almost every single country of America. I'd say they should make museums on White supremacism, racism and segregation and how these are responsible for the butchery of billions of people over the last few centuries



As to the American Indians, they certainly have the money to build such a museum, with their profits from gambling casinos.
HOWEVER, THEY, unlike the Jewish and black American folks, have gotten past the VICTIMIZATION routine that both groups seem intent on continuing. At some point, most groups get over the past injustices, and go on with their lives. Those two groups, however, seem content to continue to complain about past injustices. In fact, the response to this thread is proof of that.
In the case of many black Americans, their victimization beliefs have prevented many of them from trying to climb out of economic holes, because they have been told that they are victims, and need GOVERNMENT HELP, even after slavery was outlawed 150 years ago.
Of course, those groups will respond by claiming that I am a racist, as your post suggests. Nothing could be farther from the truth, but victimology requires that you continue to play the "race card" and "anti-Semite card" to continue this routine. For you, and others like to do otherwise, would lay bare the emptiness of your argument.
To even begin to compare the holocaust in Germany to the genocide perpetrated upon native Americans is to do injustice to the legitimate cries of genocide of the native Americans.
The holocaust DID occur, yes. However, it was not aimed at merely Jews, but a wide range of people, including just as many Christians. Was it genocide in the case of the Jews? Absolutely not.




It seems to be a common thing these days that neo-Nazis are hiding themselves behind some made-up "issues" that are indirectly serving their political agenda, such as the famous "illegal immigrants problem"... Could you be one of these, perhaps?


Anyone that does not agree with you is immediately labeled a "Neo-Nazi". Perhaps you ought to look at who the REAL Neo Nazis are in this country. It is not those that oppose ILLEGAL immigration. (Look up the WORD illegal- last time I looked, it meant "breaking the law"). It is the people in power today that have decided to NATIONALIZE OR RUN American Industries.
One thing that this thread that I created has done, is convince me more than ever that the victimization routine is still alive and well.




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