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Do all of these Holocaust museums serve a purpose anymore?

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posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 08:05 PM
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The Holocaust is unique as it was a 1st world European Country. Let's never forget how this scenario "CAN and HAS" happened in a modern society.

Also, remember the steps that are taken BEFORE a genocide and NEVER let them happen to you!

www.xmission.com...


Himmler, head of the Nazi terror police, would become an architect of the Holocaust, which consumed 6 million Jews. It was self-evident that the Jews must be disarmed before the extermination could begin.

Finding out which Jews had firearms was not too difficult. The liberal Weimar Republic passed a Firearm Law in 1928 requiring extensive police records on gun owners. Hitler signed a further gun control law in early 1938

Other European countries also had laws requiring police records to be kept on persons who possessed firearms. When the Nazis took over Czechoslovakia and Poland in 1939, it was a simple matter to identify gun owners. Many of them disappeared in the middle of the night along with political opponents.

Meanwhile Hitler unleashed killing squads called the Einsatzgruppen in Eastern Europe and Russia. As Raul Hilberg observes, "The killers were well armed . The victims were unarmed." The Einsatzgruppen executed 2 million people between fall 1939 and summer 1942. Their tasks included arrest of the politically unreliable, confiscation of weapons and extermination.

Out of all the acts of armed citizen resisters in the war, the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising of 1943 is difficult to surpass in its heroism. Beginning with just a few handguns, armed Jews put a temporary stop to the deportations to extermination camps, frightened the Nazis out of the ghetto, stood off assaults for days on end, and escaped to the forests to continue the struggle. What if there had been two, three, many Warsaw Ghetto Uprisings?

Individual criminals wreak their carnage on individuals or small numbers of people. As this century has shown, terrorist governments have the capacity to commit genocide against millions of people, provided that the people are unarmed. Schemes to confiscate firearms kept by peaceable citizens have historically been associated with some of the world's most insidious tyrannies. Given this reality, it is not surprising that law-abiding gun owners oppose being objects of registration.


www.jpfo.org...

The message is simple: Disarmed people are neither free nor safe - they become the criminals' prey and the tyrants' playthings. When the civilians are defenseless and their government goes bad, however, thousands and millions of innocents die.

Professor R.J. Rummel, author of the monumental book Death by Government, said: "Concentrated political power is the most dangerous thing on earth." For power to concentrate and become dangerous, the citizens must be disarmed.

What disarms the citizens? The idea of "gun control." It's the idea that only the government has the right to possess firearms, and that citizens have no unalienable right to use force to defend against aggression.







[edit on 4-1-2010 by infolurker]

[edit on 4-1-2010 by infolurker]




posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 08:13 PM
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reply to post by ProfEmeritus
 






I would like to know whether after 65 years, with the Nazi regime long dead,


Oh, ya think???

www.youtube.com...


www.youtube.com...









[edit on 4-1-2010 by whaaa]



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 08:19 PM
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Originally posted by DeathShield
Oh christ here come the "holocaust never happened crowd." You know i am pretty sure the bombing of hiroshima never happened.


Yeah a holocaust did happen. But in America, where hundreds of millions of natives were intentionally driven from their own homes, forced into starvation, plagued, killed, murdered and raped nearly out of existence for hundreds of years.

I'm not sure what this other holocaust you are referring to is.

I recall a few million jews being enslaved, having their wealth stripped from them, and being mistreated in a foreign land which was not theirs in the interest of conquering Europe. I recall they were treated as prisoners of war because they were perceived as the enemy. I recall many of them dying because of malnourishment and disease. I recall many of them being left out in the cold to freeze to death when they became too sick or unable to work. Some were simply shot, though that was far less common because bullets cost money.

Last I checked . . .

Holocaust: The genocide of European Jews and others by the Nazis during World War II:

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.

Didn't happen.

The Nazis were not deliberately killing off the Jews. The Jews were the slave workforce powering Hitler’s war machine. Use your logic. Slaves are no use to you if they are dead.


In his book "Russia at War 1941 to 1945", Alexander Werth reported that while visiting Gdansk/Danzig in 1945 shortly after its liberation by the Red Army, he saw an experimental factory outside the city for making soap from human corpses. According to Werth it had been run by "a German professor called Spanner" and "was a nightmarish sight, with its vats full of human heads and torsoes pickled in some liquid, and its pails full of a flakey substance - human soap".
i can't believe some people believe this stuff . . .

[edit on 1/4/2010 by JPhish]



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 08:24 PM
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I'd like to make a few comments.
First:
I would hardly call some kook skin heads a REGIME.


Definitions of regime on the Web
government: the organization that is the governing authority of a political unit;


Second:
I had hoped to get a serious discussion on this issue, but with a few exceptions, it seems that all people can say is "build another museum". I stated clearly that I don't believe we need them, (with one possible exception), so for the other posters, please stop the "build it" comments to me.

Third:
Many of these museums are being funded either in part or in full by local or, in the case of DC, by the Federal government. Given that our country is in literal bankruptcy, wouldn't this money be put to better use, than "reminding" Americans of something that they had no part in, and didn't agree with in the first place?

America had no part in the Holocaust. We don't NEED to be "reminded".



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 08:31 PM
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reply to post by JPhish
 




You are talking to a former neo-nazi here dude. Your lies no matter how eloquent and no matter how much half-truth infused are not going to work on me. Yes the jews were a slave force, they were also killed en masse. In fact one of the earliest death machines invented for containing jews and other prisoners was a truck that had a hose from the exhaust lead into a truck cabin in the back. Before that they were executed firing squad style. Einsatz Gruppen-c used to make bets on how many sabre swipes it would take to cut off a jews head.

It is a well known fact that many nazi documents were destroyed when the allies invaded germany. Goebbels' diary, for example, was barely rescued from being sold as 7,000 pages of scrap paper, but buried in the scattered manuscript were several entries (as translated in Lochner, The Goebbels Diaries, 1948, pp. 86, 147-148):

February 14, 1942: The Führer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness.

March 27, 1942: The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.

The Nazis' own estimate of the number of European Jews was eleven million, and sixty percent of eleven million is 6.6 million. This is fairly close to the actual figure. (Actually, forty percent was a serious overestimate of the survival rate of Jews who were captured, but there were many Jews who escaped.)
Did the supposed Jewish conspiracy forge seven thousand pages to insert just a few lines? How did they manage to know Goebbels' affairs intimately enough to avoid contradictions such as putting him or his associates in the wrong city at the wrong date?



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 08:37 PM
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I think the O.P. has a point. Holocaust museums being built on lands where the actual event did not take place is wrong. There have been many genocides committed against many different types of people within the last few centuries. As others have said, museums that remind us of past injustices are important, but they should only be built in countries that were responsible for carrying out these injustices, not countries halfway across the world.



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 08:41 PM
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reply to post by DeathShield
 


Last i checked, nothing i said in my post was a lie.

If you'd like to call me a liar sir, challenge me to a member debate on the subject and i'll show you the error of your ways.



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 08:42 PM
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reply to post by ProfEmeritus
 


Of course they serve a purpose. WWII was really the last war America had a good moral justification for. The government wants to remind everyone of that. TPTB like us to think their wars might actually be doing good in the world. They like us to think of America as the knight in shining armor thats purpose is go in and 'rescue' other countries.



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 08:42 PM
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Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
Not only did the US NOT cause the holocaust,


who said that they did?


There is no NEED to "remind" us about man's inhumanity in this instance, because our country was not responsible, and did not contribute to it.


Actually, from some posts in this thread some people certainly do need to be reminded of it

- anyway, how does it effect you how many there are? So do you think there should be a government group that can decide where you can and can not build a museum? or how many museums of a certain type should be allowed to be built?



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 08:51 PM
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reply to post by dereks
 





So do you think there should be a government group that can decide where you can and can not build a museum

The answer to that question is yes, whenever ANY government funds are being used. That "group" that decides is the electorate, since we are the ones funding such undertakings. I am sick and tired of having every special interest group funded by tax money that I contributed. I could care less if 100 museums are built, as long as NO TAX money is used. When it is, it becomes MY BUSINESS.



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 08:59 PM
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reply to post by JPhish
 



Originally posted by JPhish
reply to post by DeathShield
 


Last i checked, nothing i said in my post was a lie.





Last I checked . . .

Holocaust: The genocide of European Jews and others by the Nazis during World War II:

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.

Didn't happen.

The Nazis were not deliberately killing off the Jews.


Sir you clearly stated that the holocaust did not happen, The burden of proof is on YOU. Debating you would be like debating a klan member, it would get to the point where you would ask me to give you a physical piece of the body of evidence from the Nuremberg trials.



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 09:01 PM
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Originally posted by JPhish

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.

Didn't happen.

The Nazis were not deliberately killing off the Jews. The Jews were the slave workforce powering Hitler’s war machine. Use your logic. Slaves are no use to you if they are dead.



Such ignorance...


Apparently you are not aware of how it worked.

The Nazis would separate Jews, Slavs, Romani, Poles, people with disabilities, homosexuals, and other 'undesirables' into two lines at the camps:

The young men who could bear loads and perform menial labour were sent to the work camps, where they were slowly starved whilst serving as slaves. They were quite literally worked to death, with the end goal being their extermination. The Nazis simply wanted to get use out of them before they perished.

The elders, women, children, and physically handicapped were sent directly to execution camps, where they were systematically exterminated.

Anybody who has read any of the firsthand accounts of the survivors of these camps knows that this is what took place.

Take a look at these images (may disturb some):







What does that look like to you... Slavery? Or systematic extermination? (This was before photoshop, btw. Those photos are real .)



To answer the OP's question:

The reason there are so many Holocaust museums in the US is quite simple. There are a lot of Jews in the US. More than any country other than Israel, in fact. While it may seem more appropriate to have museums in parts of Europe where the Holocaust actually occurred (and there are), when you consider that such a large concentration of the world's Jewish population lives here in the US it makes more sense.

Jews pay for these museums to be built, because it is an important, tragic, and terrible moment in Jewish history. Most of the Jews living in the US have been directly affected by the Holocaust, in fact it is the reason that many of us are here in the first place. My own grandparents fled Poland in the 30's as the Nazis were rising to power.

While the Holocaust may have occurred halfway across the globe, it is still a defining moment in US history, and greatly affected our nation much in the way it affected Europe.



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 09:19 PM
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Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
www.forward.com...


Local Holocaust Museums Grow Amid Worries About Future
By Gal Beckerman
Published December 23, 2009, issue of January 01, 2010.

The numbers speak for themselves: There are now 16 Holocaust museums in the United States, from Albuquerque, N.M., to Houston, to Richmond, Va. And these are just the biggest of nearly 150 Holocaust centers all over the country.

The proliferation of museums detailing the story of what happened to European Jewry during World War II has been largely a phenomenon of the 1990s, part of the general increase in Holocaust awareness in the culture at large. But it has by no means slowed: The most recent museum, in Skokie, Ill., opened last spring, while construction continues on a second Los Angeles museum, to open in the summer of 2010.

With a substantial, federally-backed national museum in Washington, critics are increasingly wondering about the need for so many local museums. Even more important, the question of whether these institutions will be able to financially sustain themselves into the future — given the heavy costs of maintaining collections, and the dying off of the Holocaust survivors who founded them — is of great concern to museum directors.



The purpose of this thread is NOT to discuss whether the holocaust existed. I believe that it did, while others may disagree.
I would like to know whether after 65 years, with the Nazi regime long dead, and almost all of the survivors deceased, whether there are other causes that are more pressing. For instance, Darfur and other current genocidal wars rage on, while other equally disastrous massacres have occurred in recent times. None, however, seem to draw the attention that the Holocaust generated.
Is it time to move on? Why, of all the horrors in human history, does THIS one, generate a need for 16 museums, and counting?
Please try to keep this discussion civil. I'm not looking to start a religious war here.


How about a few museums detailing the genocide that the New Jews have been consistantly waging against the Palestinians since they took control of the place after WW2? how about a few museums that commemorate the U.S.S. Liberty attack back in 1967? How about a concerted push to cease portraying these people as victim of a long-since ended pogrom and, instead, portray them as they are today; i.e. the only government on earth that is allowed to entertain a policy of Apartheid with the official approval of the U.S. Government? I'm not trying to start a "war here" either, but I feel that the policies and actions of this country towards the original inhabitants of the region, as well as their unwarrented attack upon us in 1967, included with the unwarrented influence that their lobby exerts on our political process, tends to make me view them as an enemy and not an ally we can count on. Personally, I'm sickened by the way that every time an honest individual criticizes them, they are immediately accused of "Anti-Semitism", as if there aren't valid reasons to be anti-Israeli after their horrific policing of Gaza and their unrelenting persecution of the Palestinian people. They answer lame-ass home-made rocket attacks with sophisticated, state-of-the-art helicopter retaltiations. They bulldoze sleeping families into the ground with their continual expansion into territories that they have no legitimate claim to occupy. Thier leadership puts Stalin to shame, and we support them 1000%. If you can support this kind of brutal oppression and single-minded genocide simply because they pretend to be connected to the original Hebrews then my hats off to ya. I have a little more conscience than that I'm afraid, and I hate despotism no matter what cloak of religion or victimization they choose to drape over themselves in order to shield themselves from the righteous indignation that is begat from their appalling policies. A pox on their holocaust posture. They long ago ceased to be the victim and became the victimizer. So I think that it is high time that the classic notion of Nazi-inspired Anti-Semitism be consigned to the moth balls that it deserves and that the new and highly justified Anti-Israeli Apartheid movement be justified and vindicated in the free press. Just because your ancestors were herded up and murdered for some dubious political notion does not bestow upon you the right to inflict the same inhuman conditions upon those who rightfully oppose your brutal subjagation of the lands that they and their ancestors have occupied for centuries. And, of course, the final irony is that many of the folks who are now labelled Palestinians are, of course, the honest descendants of the original Hebrews, The people who originated the religion that their Eastern European invaders claim to adhere to and honor. Boy! I guess when JHVH decides to trash you he pulls out all the stops! No wonder I'm not a Christian.



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 09:26 PM
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reply to post by Dock9
 


Star 'n' flag.

Soon they will be able to arrest you. It is inconceivable that jews would lie.



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 09:32 PM
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Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
reply to post by Sean48
 





The thing about history , even tragic history is that if you don't remember it , your doomed to repeat it

Oh, I certainly agree. However, why are the 16 museums for the holocaust, and none for other events that were just as disastrous? [/quote

Since everyone can't afford a trip to Isreal, I have a no problem with multiple locations. There built, as far as I know, with private funds, except in Isrreal. More importently this is one event we must never forget. We are often not aware of how many times genocide has happend in the past. To many to name off hand, but can you remember one? Tragicly, there are to many abomanations to have a museum to all of them.
(please forgive spelling, spell checker STILL on strike)



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 09:39 PM
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Originally posted by SerialLurker
They need museums about the horrors of nuclear warfare.


Nagasaki Museum

i don't know if there is one in the U.S. but if not, we certainly need one




[edit on 1/4/2010 by queenannie38]



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 09:44 PM
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Peace Museums also seem good to me.

Dayton International Peace Museum



[edit on 1/4/2010 by queenannie38]



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 09:54 PM
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reply to post by drwizardphd
 





The Nazis would separate Jews, Slavs, Romani, Poles, people with disabilities, homosexuals, and other 'undesirables' into two lines at the camps:

Yes, that is correct. In fact, in your own words, the holocaust was not limited to Jews. Millions of non-Jews were also either gassed or worked to death. In fact, almost as many non-Jews were part of the extermination effort:



But what about "the others"? There were five million of them. Who were they? Whose children, whose mothers and fathers were they? How could five million human beings have been killed and forgotten?

After studying carefully-documented books, and interviewing non-Jewish survivors, I found more information about the five million forgotten than I had ever imagined -- information that most people are not aware of. Polish citizens suffered enormously during the Holocaust -- Jews and non-Jews.

Eleven million precious lives were lost during the Holocaust of World War II. Six million of these were Polish citizens. Half of these Polish citizens were non-Jews. More...

While there is no argument that Hitler abhorred the Jews and caused almost six million to be ruthlessly killed, often non-Jewish victims are tragically forgotten from Holocaust remembrances. Eleven million precious human lives were lost during the Holocaust. Five million of these were non-Jewish. Three million were Polish Christians and Catholics. It would be very sad to forget even one precious life extinguished so ruthlessly. It would be a tragedy to forget five million.

www.holocaustforgotten.com...

The inconvenient truth is that those 5 million non-Jews are never mentioned. There seems to be a double standard when it comes to who the victims of the holocaust were. I ask the rhetorical question - Are those non-Jewish lives any less important than the Jewish lives lost?



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 09:57 PM
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reply to post by ProfEmeritus
 


If you are not paying for them then what do you care,
Why should some sheeple have to travel all the way from Montana to D,C, to view that stuff? I posted this reply from your OP.
Would you be in favor of incorporating the holocaust into museums that honor the Americans that shut those camps down?

[edit on 4-1-2010 by Donny 4 million]



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 09:58 PM
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reply to post by ProfEmeritus
 


No the non-jewish lives were just as valuable as the jewish lives. At least that is what me and other jews have agreed upon. I don't know any jew who says that the other lives were unimportant. Members of my congregation have agreed with me that at LEAST 6 million non-jews were killed in conjuction with the jews. This isn't shocking or new information.



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