Why is secrecy such an issue?

Secrecy is the holy of holies. Secrecy means power. If I know some thing you don't know, that gives me power. Secrecy is addicting and corosive. I know it does wonders for the ego, as it has for me. It has it's place in certain areas, but out side of that it does little to protect a nation, or corporation. Since every thing important is classified, it makes it hard to figure out; is it secret to protect national security, or cover-up incompetance, boys behaving badly, etc. You can not know how sexy security and special access can be untill you are in the thick of it. It's better then sex.

As all ways, please forgive spelling. Spell checker is tempting me to shoot my computer. The problem is I no longer own a gun. But, I do have a baseball bat...

Originally posted by JPhish

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by JPhish
If everyone were informed of everything, most man made problems would cease to exist.

Much as I'd love to believe that the simple fact is that those who live to hate and divide would find some other excuse to hate and divide. Information without understanding is so much background noise.

Good point . . .

But i'm sure that in a world without deceit, we'd have a better educational system.

Ah but in that statement which is the chicken and which is the egg?

Originally posted by JPhish
Sorry but honesty is ALWAYS the best policy. There are no exceptions.

Are you married? When the enevitable, "Honey, do I look fat in these jeans?", question arises, best of luck to you sir.

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
Part of this phenomenon is the fault of the Masons. By joining a secret society, they should know that speculation as to what exactly happens behind closed doors will be subject to speculation.

It is also logically impossible to prove a negative. If I accuse the Masons in my town of sacrificing children to the devil, the masons will have a hard time conclusively disproving this. If they open up their meetings for the world to see that there are no child sacrifices, someone could always say that we are not seeing the "real" meeting where the child sacrifices occur. If they use outside evidence like police records to show that there are no missing children in the area, someone can always says the Masons get children from outside the area.

You're right, of course, it IS logically impossible to prove a negative. So the burden of proof lies on the accuser. And yet such spurious claims are constantly made on this board and elsewhere without the least shred of evidence to back them up. So the accuser results to "well of course there's no proof! Those super-powerful Masons have corrupted the system so much, defying the laws of man, nature, and physics itself, to hide their nefarious deeds!"

reply to post by JPhish

So whats your bank account number? Address? Name?

reply to post by Elieser

I'm sure there are groups that think they no more than others, but the Freemasons don't. We provide voluntary charities to the public.

Sorry to hear about your job.

reply to post by JPhish

How do you get that? Absolute knowledge does not rid the world of basic trade and commerce.

reply to post by arbiture

Secrecy is also privacy. We're bound to our Oaths and all good Masons stay loyal to this. All we can say is there is nothing sinister there and all we ask for is privacy.

Network Dude,
If you know anything about computers you should look into Kevin Mitnick. He said "Nobody had privacy, deal with it". This goes along with the paradigm that nobody truly has secrets. There is no such thing as privacy...people like the freemasons are just trying to cause hype...in my opinion.

reply to post by network dude


There is nothing wrong with secrecy as long as it doesn't hurt or be used against another individual. The moment it does well then, it becomes not a secret but an abuse of that individual and or their Freedom to be left in peace. Now apply this to all your examples and if they don't qualify as an abuse then I'm with you in their being harmless? Is what I think

[edit on 6-1-2010 by mlmijyd]

reply to post by Mastermind_2011


I have mentioned before to the users at ATS about how exactly they are tracked, cataloged, and recorded. Secrecy is for the NSA. The secrets I was referring to is the masonic secrets. Our handshakes and passwords. Some folks think that since we have them and won't reveal them, we are secretly plotting world domination. As you stated, Big Brother is indeed among us. Don't say anything online or on the phone that you wouldn't say to him, cuz he hears it.

I think there are many who would like to have knowledge bestowed upon them for the sake of it. They believe themselves ready for it and want to forgo any preparatory work such as initiation that will help then to understand the knowledge.

Of course, this is not the case for the most part.

If we look at the old parable: "Milk for the babes and meat for the strong." We can derive that the meaning is that all things in good time to those that pursue them.

Freemason degree work is not unlike the construct of school grades in the sense that the previous prepares for the next in a progressive manner. the handshakes and passwords are as far as I know, are merely identifiers that one belongs in the fraternity and as no lower degree member may attend the degree work of higher members, there is a function and purpose to these within the craft lodges as well.

I am new to freemasonry and I look forward to doing the work involved with eagerness. I know it will be a long endeavour and that I may not understand a lot, but it is something that I find to be of value to not only myself and my family, but to my community and ultimately humanity.

Freemasonry is one of the great undertakings of any man with the free will to do so and the mind to make a better world vis a vis a better self.

Originally posted by JPhish
Sorry, but i disagree, i don't believe there should be any secrets.

Most of the woes of this world are the result of ignorance.

If everyone were informed of everything, most man made problems would cease to exist.

[edit on 1/4/2010 by JPhish]

I won't apologize, but your view is remarkably naive friend.

Also, take a moment to think about what you've written. Do you really think that everyone knowing everyone else's business would serve us in some way that would be beneficial? How?

Think of this. A child of 10 can't comprehend the love of a man and his wife. Should he know the knowledge of his parents intimacy? Or is it enough that he knows they love each other and him? These aren't secrets, but they are knowledge that is not for sharing.

Should you know th affairs of your neighbor intimately?

There are degrees of gray. Not everything is absolute in the least and the approach of absolutism is almost always gonna get you into a cycle of destruction ultimately.

While humanity is capable of great things, don't take your eye off the shortcomings. It is the former that helps us all become great and it is the latter which tempers the pace.

Totalitarian Control-Freaks dont want you to have secrets. They want to know everything. Thats how they can control.

The problem is not merely secrecy, but secrecy in government.

When individuals are allowed to hold office who simultaneously hold themselves to a higher oath than the Constitution then a conflict of interests is present. This cannot be debated.

Also, the presence of Masons in government reinforces the idea that secrecy is acceptable in government.
This is the furthest thing from the truth.

SECRECY IS REPUGNANT IN GOVERNMENT.

reply to post by Josephus23

But our Oaths don't supersede the US Constitution or any governments constitution and laws.

if the secrets are means of secreting something that makes you as a drone attractive to the queen are you truly capable of the duties fulfilled by the king whose secrets are used for building?

as long as you dont mimic my secretions whats the problem with you secreting.

Originally posted by Ausar
if the secrets are means of secreting something that makes you as a drone attractive to the queen are you truly capable of the duties fulfilled by the king whose secrets are used for building?

as long as you dont mimic my secretions whats the problem with you secreting.

I will not mimic any secretions if the secrets are means of secreting something that makes you as a drone attractive to the queen are you truly capable of the duties fulfilled by the king whose secrets are used for building? And what the hell might this mean? I am not mimicing your secretions. I still have no idea whtyou're trying to say. Try paragraphs, punctuation, and cogent thought. Thanx.

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by Josephus23

 

But our Oaths don't supersede the US Constitution or any governments constitution and laws.

I would expect you to say that, but it does not mean that it is true.

That is the typical response and if that is the case, then why be secret at all.

Why not make it like joining the PTA. Record what you do in your ceremonies and put it out on the internet.
Put cameras in ALL lodges and make it completely open. I mean if someone serves the people, then they should have NO secrets.

Sorry dude, but that argument is horribly flaccid.

"I mean if someone serves the people, then they should have NO secrets."

Cool. If you answer to ANYONE, the rest of us should have access to all of your activities.So lets observe all of your actions. If you have noting to hide...

if a secretion is only used for a purpose is it bad for others to use secrets to emulate secretions for that same purpose?

Originally posted by Josephus23
The problem is not merely secrecy, but secrecy in government.

When individuals are allowed to hold office who simultaneously hold themselves to a higher oath than the Constitution........

Whoa there big fella! Parse that sentiment with this rather specific instruction from the 1st °:

"As a citizen of the world I am to enjoin you to be exemplary in the discharge of your civil duties, by never proposing or at all countenancing any act that may have a tendency to subvert the peace and good order of society, by paying due obedience to the laws of any State which may for a time become the place of your residence or afford you its protection"

Spin whatever way you may try, from their very Initiation Masons are specifically directed to make themselves subject to the laws of society.

Kinda deep-sixes your woolly-headed assertion to the contrary.

Originally posted by Josephus23
then a conflict of interests is present. This cannot be debated.

No conflict exists. This is not debatable.

Originally posted by Josephus23
Also, the presence of Masons in government reinforces the idea that secrecy is acceptable in government.

We have the bureaucracy ready to go. Shall we now proceed with your witch hunt? Once we've rousted all these nasty Masons, who's next? And after that? And after that?

Where do we stop and why?

Originally posted by Josephus23
This is the furthest thing from the truth.

SECRECY IS REPUGNANT IN GOVERNMENT.

Yet oddly enough, those who seem to clamour loudest for governmental control and transparency tend to be the types that Joe Mainstreet would least trust.

Odd that. Wunner why?