Why is secrecy such an issue?, page 1
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ATS Members have flagged this thread 3 times
Topic started on 4-1-2010 @ 06:18 PM by network dude
You keep your SSN secret. You keep your bank account secret. You may have a secret recipe that makes your restaurant money. Major corporations keep their business meeting secret.

There are all good reasons why some things are kept secret. Yet whenever someone talks of masonry, they seem to think we shouldn't keep secrets. Actually, in reality we have no secrets. There have been people in the past who couldn't wait to tell all they knew about the "masonic secrets" so they published them. Of course there are those who don't know and just make things up so they can stroke the old ego. After all, when someone gets a scoop here, they are rewarded handsomely. Who cares is the scoop is a complete fabrication.

Secrecy is a part of everyday life. get used to it. I wish all the people who would quote JFKs speech on secrecy would actually read the damn thing. Not just the cool paragraph quoted on the fundie website, the whole thing. I realize it's almost 4 paragraphs, and way too much trouble to process that much data, but take a 5 minute break from internet porn one day, and read it. You will be surprised to find that he was imploring the press to exercise restraint when publishing any story that sounded juicy. In order to maintain a few elements of surprise within the realm of national security. Hell, he was a member of a "secret society" himself.

Secrecy won't kill you, it will only make you curious to know why they are secrets. Those with enough skills at the complexity of the google, may find themselves all the secrets that history holds. So in the immortal words of Sgt. Hulka, lighten up Frances.


reply posted on 4-1-2010 @ 06:36 PM by hotpinkurinalmint
reply to post by network dude


Secrecy in and of itself is not bad. Almost all people people keep secrets for obviously legitimate reasons, as you have pointed out.

Secrecy is bad when it is is used to accomplish an illegitimate end. Conspiracy theorists believe groups like the Masons are using secrecy as a tool to carry out nefarious plots. If this is true (I know many including myself doubt or deny the existence of such plots), then secrecy used by masons is bad.


reply posted on 4-1-2010 @ 07:00 PM by network dude
reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint


I think those who worry about secrecy would never believe anything other than a fantastic story that fits nicely into a ultra conspiracy filled with world domination and satanic sacrifices. It's so popular everyone is doing it. The NWO, the Illuminati, Boy Scouts.



reply posted on 4-1-2010 @ 07:22 PM by hotpinkurinalmint
reply to post by network dude


Part of this phenomenon is the fault of the Masons. By joining a secret society, they should know that speculation as to what exactly happens behind closed doors will be subject to speculation.

It is also logically impossible to prove a negative. If I accuse the Masons in my town of sacrificing children to the devil, the masons will have a hard time conclusively disproving this. If they open up their meetings for the world to see that there are no child sacrifices, someone could always say that we are not seeing the "real" meeting where the child sacrifices occur. If they use outside evidence like police records to show that there are no missing children in the area, someone can always says the Masons get children from outside the area.


reply posted on 4-1-2010 @ 07:44 PM by Elieser
Why is secrecy such an issue?

Someone with certain beliefs forms a group and they become powerful, this group believes that what they think is right and that they are more intelligent and better prepared to make the decisions for everyone else.
No one asks people from outside the group because there is no need to, since the group knows it all and keeps it a secret.
Right now in my workplace, the owner wants to know why are the orders being shipped late and things are not working how they should, so they get together in the office and come up with this plan to place a spy amongst the workers. (We knew he was a "spy" from the minute he walked in). The guy has been there for a few days and has not come up with a solution. The office people are getting anxious and are coming out and pretending like they are working on something to spy on us. All of this they are doing in supposed secret. We know what is wrong and what needs to be done in order to fix things, but since we are not in this little circle, they don't listen to us and change things that hurt us more than they help us. They believe that they are superior to us and do as they wish in secrecy in order to accomplish set goals that might or might not harm us.
The government does the same thing, instead of asking the people, they trust all on a few people that only think about keeping their jobs or positions and think that the rest of the world is stupid while they are making big mistakes and keeping it a secret.
Others have hidden agendas that are bad for humanity and some of them don't even know it. All they know is that they are working and have a job and will not question what they are doing.
That is why secrecy is such an issue.

PS: The problem in my workplace is that I am the only worker and I do 4 different jobs. They have "forgotten" to replace the people they fire and I end up doing their jobs. The other person in the company is my supervisor who now does the jobs of 4 people. They expect to have the same or better production after getting rid of 6 people that had completely different jobs.


reply posted on 4-1-2010 @ 07:47 PM by hotpinkurinalmint
reply to post by JPhish


So can you please post your bank account numbers and social security numbers. Also, if you or your significant other is highly attractive, can you post explicit photographs of you and/or your significant other in the bedroom or shower. I would also like to invite you over for some poker, but I will insist on dealing your cards face up.

Secrecy is bad, and you would be eliminating ignorance by revealing this information to us.


reply posted on 4-1-2010 @ 07:55 PM by Fitzgibbon
Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
reply to post by network dude

Secrecy is bad when it is is used to accomplish an illegitimate end.


Agreed.

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
Conspiracy theorists believe groups like the Masons are using secrecy as a tool to carry out nefarious plots.


But if they truly believe this, they don't seem to be able to bring themselves to infiltrate, spend the time and expose what hasn't already exposed for nearly three centuries. The problem is that no matter what level a person attains within Masonry, those pitching stones from the outside will insist that there's some sooper sekret level-within-a-level that this insider isn't privy to. Yet they scamper to mother's skirts when confronted to validate their information.

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
If this is true (I know many including myself doubt or deny the existence of such plots), then secrecy used by masons is bad.


The operative word being "if". But the reality is that any secrecy being used for nefarious ends is at odds with the core directives of Masonry and this point has been stressed again and again and again, to little avail in the minds of those who need to believe otherwise. I could make similar spurious claims about the Knights of Columbus were I so inclined. But what I've read about them as a fraternity sounds not dissimilar to Masonry with the one obvious proviso that Masonry doesn't have.

Yet there are those who'd have us all at each other's throats over ridiculous unsupported allegations. Those are the true enemies of mankind, the dividers, the erstwhile 'leaders' who style themselves as possessors of the only true word and knowledge.

Who would not live peaceably with his neighbour deserves nothing less than universal contempt.



reply posted on 4-1-2010 @ 08:06 PM by Fitzgibbon
Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
reply to post by network dude


Part of this phenomenon is the fault of the Masons. By joining a secret society, they should know that speculation as to what exactly happens behind closed doors will be subject to speculation.


But why single-out Masonry for such special attention? It isn't as if it's the only such fraternity. And why not speculate about the goings on within the boardroom of IBM? Walmart? General Electric? Why're they given a pass while Masonry is papered with vile, unsupported accusations?

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
It is also logically impossible to prove a negative. If I accuse the Masons in my town of sacrificing children to the devil, the masons will have a hard time conclusively disproving this.


In all likelihood, they'd look at you as if you were nuts as well you would need be. And they'd ignore you as would any adult with an IQ above room temperature.

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
If they open up their meetings for the world to see that there are no child sacrifices, someone could always say that we are not seeing the "real" meeting where the child sacrifices occur. If they use outside evidence like police records to show that there are no missing children in the area, someone can always says the Masons get children from outside the area.


And so it goes. There's always going to be an element in society that thinks the worst of other people whether they're Masons, Jews, blacks, gays...what have you.

These are the haters whose shameful behaviour reminds us of our primitive roots. The sooner they receive the attention they deserve (which is to say, none at all), the better off society as a whole will be.


reply posted on 4-1-2010 @ 08:08 PM by network dude
reply to post by Elieser


the management where you work probably thinks they are getting away with something, and I would assume they are trying to find ways to make the company more profitable. I would look for more of this in the workplace in the very near future. A head bigwig from Waste Management just gained an entry level position to learn about ways to make his company better. If I where a garbage truck driver and I knew the CEO was secretly trying to infiltrate the ranks, I would make sure he got the full experience. Anything less would be such a waste. I can see how this would help though. Workers have a way of expressing what they see wrong but will rarely be able to articulate that to upper management. Not everybody is good at hiding things.


reply posted on 4-1-2010 @ 08:27 PM by JPhish
reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint


You need to learn how to read more carefully.

"If everyone were informed of everything, most man made problems would cease to exist. "

Money would no longer be needed at this point.

Use your head.

[edit on 1/4/2010 by JPhish]


reply posted on 4-1-2010 @ 09:04 PM by hotpinkurinalmint
reply to post by JPhish


I did read your post. You said there should be no secrets and I challenged you to divulge secrets. For obvious reasons, you are not going to divulge those secrets because you have good reasons not to divulge.

Similarly, people may have good reasons not to divulge secrets. Secrecy does not necessarily hinder, as you say, but can advance. People are happier when certain intimate details of their lives are kept secret. Secrecy can also advance the discovery of knowledge.

Many companies would not spend large amounts of money developing useful technologies and uncovering knowledge, in the hopes of commercially exploiting the technologies. Without secrecy some secrecy, companies could not successfully exploit these technologies. For example, without secrecy, an interloper can develop a product cheaply by taking advantage of preliminary research performed by someone else.


reply posted on 5-1-2010 @ 12:55 AM by JPhish
Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
reply to post by JPhish


I did read your post. You said there should be no secrets and I challenged you to divulge secrets.

Which is asinine because we're not living in a world where everyone is informed and honest, so me doing so would prove absolutely nothing. Your logic is flawed.

For obvious reasons, you are not going to divulge those secrets because you have good reasons not to divulge.
Incorrect assumptions.

Similarly, people may have good reasons not to divulge secrets. Secrecy does not necessarily hinder, as you say, but can advance. People are happier when certain intimate details of their lives are kept secret. Secrecy can also advance the discovery of knowledge.
Sorry but honesty is ALWAYS the best policy. There are no exceptions.

Many companies would not spend large amounts of money developing useful technologies and uncovering knowledge, in the hopes of commercially exploiting the technologies.

There would be no need for money in the world if everyone were honest and informed.

Without secrecy some secrecy, companies could not successfully exploit these technologies. For example, without secrecy, an interloper can develop a product cheaply by taking advantage of preliminary research performed by someone else.
There wouldn't be a need for money if everyone were honest and informed. Sorry your logic is flawed.

[edit on 1/5/2010 by JPhish]
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