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Is teaching religion child abuse?

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posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 08:03 AM
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Originally posted by moocowman
Can you give good reason to teach a child to love with all their heart an invisible man and call him father, when this being is alleged to do what most normal loving parents could not even consider "kill their own child"?


logically?


the particular god in question is all powerful, he can either bring the person back to life or take them into a heavenly kingdom for eternal life, for such a being, death is less than nothing, no more serious a punishment than the initial sting on the bottom a child receives when it is smacked.

[edit on 5/1/10 by pieman]




posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 08:28 AM
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Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by moocowman
 


That woman in the video,was not an example of a christian woman!
She was cussing,out of control and totally wrong.


I don't decide who is and is not a christian real or otherwise if this woman says she's an xtian then so be it.

The fact remains whether or not she uses words that some may or may not find offensive is not the issue. She is using threats and fear ie violence to force another individual (who just happens to be a child) that she has some measure of control over, to comply to here beliefs in a fearful deity she cannot even prove to the child exists !!!

Threatening another person (a child is still a person not a puppy) with violence or the fear of it, is abusive period.

And violence begets viloence



But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.


This is a child and this is abuse of a child in order to make the child comply with a religion whose patron is self proclaimed to be violent and murderous period.

I can assure you of this, if I were to speak to my wife in this way I would be arrested and the behavior would be classed as violent abuse of my wife.

If we listen carefully we can observe that the mother really loses it when the boy says "you can think" by their very nature many religions require the individual not to think






[edit on 5-1-2010 by moocowman]



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 08:33 AM
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Originally posted by pieman

Originally posted by moocowman
Can you give good reason to teach a child to love with all their heart an invisible man and call him father, when this being is alleged to do what most normal loving parents could not even consider "kill their own child"?


logically?


the particular god in question is all powerful, he can either bring the person back to life or take them into a heavenly kingdom for eternal life, for such a being, death is less than nothing, no more serious a punishment than the initial sting on the bottom a child receives when it is smacked.

[edit on 5/1/10 by pieman]


Do I take because an individual uses violence to make another person comply that makes their gods' violence ok ?

Hm,



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 08:51 AM
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Originally posted by moocowman
Do I take because an individual uses violence to make another person comply that makes their gods' violence ok ?

Hm,


i'm not sure i'm following you. what i'm saying is that, logically, a being with power over life and death and a perfect understanding of both might well see killing his children as a useful spiritual lesson.

violence is a matter of perspective in this sense, killing is only violent where it is irreversible. a god killing a person in this respect is like a surgeon using anesthetic, it's a reversible process for the persons own good.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 09:49 AM
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reply to post by pieman
 





violence is a matter of perspective in this sense, killing is only violent where it is irreversible. a god killing a person in this respect is like a surgeon using anesthetic, it's a reversible process for the persons own good.



I agree violence and killing are a matter of perspective, and from the perspective of the victim it surely does matter.

if we apply this logic to jesus for example children are encouraged to develop a sense of guilt or remorse because this being is said to have been violently killed upon that child's' behalf.

As the killing was not irreversible then there was no violence the being did not die and Mel Gibson could have saved some money on actors.

The assertion that the best interest of the child is being served is but an opinion as there's no corroborative proof. Yet again the problem of abuse is compounded in that we can teach a child that there are occasions when violence is not violent ie when a god does it.

If one is to respond with something like "well you wouldn't expect a child to understand this highly philosophical proposition" why on earth get the child involved to begin with surely the simplest concepts of morality will do without the need of religious dogma demons devils and such ?



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 10:04 AM
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reply to post by DeathShield
 





Despite the advances we have made in our time since carl sagans death and work we still do not know much about our universe. We have observed less than one percent and at any moment those observations can be rendered invalid. That is the nature of science. Therefore to make the assumption that this is harmful because it teaches kids about something that does not exist is not a scientific nor philosophically valid argument.


No, there is an ocean of difference in this and teaching children, for example that there is a portion of the universe that we cannot prove is actually there we just believe it is there and if you do not comply to it's wishes it will commit violence ( what we humans interpret as violence) against you.


There is absolutely no comparison between teaching children about the possibilities of the existence cosmological objects, and the absolute certainty that there is a being that conforms to whatever description that you choose based on your belief, and no evidence, and this being is to be feared for its' violent retributions for not believing in or complying with its' alleged dictates.

(Apologies for the poor grammar)

[edit on 5-1-2010 by moocowman]



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 10:08 AM
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reply to post by moocowman
 


Respectfully, look at our youth and think it over. If basic morality were a natural part of humanity, how could it survive the onslaught of programming and social engineering run amok that is our society today?

BTW Even though that woman clearly lost it, who the heck hasn't? Freaking out about a teenager is the usual for most parents I've spoken to.

The kid didn't really seemed as fazed as one would think, and didn't seem to care about the gifts, either. Pretty enlightened for a brainwashed child abuse victim. I feel for him, but I feel for his parents too! Nobody's perfect, and whatever that woman believes, it clearly did not prepare her for this confrontation. I hate to see that...


Where's the love?



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 10:16 AM
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reply to post by autowrench
 


I would like to commend you for your excellent answer. Thankfully, we all enjoy the privilege of the First Amendment, even (gasp) Christians.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 10:21 AM
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reply to post by Doc Velocity
 


I could not agree more. I don't force my child to go to church, but we do have a zero-tolerance approach to violent games, etc.

Does this stop him? No. It's not my goal to stop him, only to make him aware, curtail his exposure to the extent I am responsible, and get him interested in his other activities, like being an amazing artist and writer, a talented chef, etc.

If I do my job properly, he will take from me what is good, and prosper in his life and relationships. That is much more powerful than anything else.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 10:22 AM
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reply to post by Doc Velocity
 


I could not agree more. I don't force my child to go to church, but we do have a zero-tolerance approach to violent games, etc.

Does this stop him? No. It's not my goal to stop him, only to make him aware, curtail his exposure to the extent I am responsible, and get him interested in his other activities, like being an amazing artist and writer, a talented chef, etc.

If I do my job properly, he will take from me what is good, and prosper in his life and relationships. That is much more powerful than anything else.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 10:50 AM
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Religion is a scourge and a disease.

Not only is it most definitely child abuse, it is a psychological disease that affects a vast amount of people. Religion is the most dangerous pandemic that humanity has ever had to fight. We are winning, but religion is still as dangerous as ever.

All you have to do is look at the fundies on ATS to see how religion makes people turn out. Small minded, uneducated, and generally socially defunct.

Parallex.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 10:56 AM
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Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by sirnex
 


I'm sorry,but this video is not on topic,this thread is about children being
taught religion,abuse or not.Please stay on topic.


That's a matter of perspective. These grown people were once children mind you. Children indoctrinated into a religious faith that bred intolerance of their fellow man. I would say that is abusive to their intellect, it make's them small minded hateful bigots. I was not indoctrinated into a religion and I have never once thought ill against homosexuals. Teaching children to grow up like the adults marching in public spouting hateful words is certainly abusive, if you can't see that point, then perhaps you need to pull your head out of your bible and take a look at the real world around you.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 11:06 AM
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reply to post by sirnex
 




If one is being moral based on promise of reward, then are they truly moral beings?


Excellent point!

It's like a criminal or con artist being all nice and moral to you because he wants something from you.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 11:22 AM
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reply to post by moocowman
 


see, now we're back to specifics of doctrine, i'm not going to defend every single christian perspective any more than i expect you to defend every atheistic perspective.

again, telling you children what you believe to be the truth or encouraging your children to believe as you do is not, in itself, abuse. there is no basis for this idea. methods used to teach children might well be abusive, no doubt about it, but the actual passing of religious views to your children is not an abuse.

give me some evidence or logical argument that the actual religious belief is destructive to the child, physically or mentally.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 11:33 AM
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reply to post by Copperflower
 





Respectfully, look at our youth and think it over
.

I do I am, Mixed bunch the products of their parents and environment over 2000 years worth of "Thou shalt nots" fear of the human body , fear of beings in the sky or in pigs, fear of sex and sexuality, fear of thinking and questioning, fear of not feeling guilty about the demise of a man in the sky.

I'm looking all right not just at the youth but of my generation and before, I see people in the process of ridding themselves of the shackles of religious torment and tyranny.

Am I not an expression of this new freedom ?

No doubt it will take a bit of time for things to settle down and tears will be shed but only what one expect when you let the bunny out of the box.







If basic morality were a natural part of humanity, how could it survive the onslaught of programming and social engineering run amok that is our society today?


Are christianity or Islam not social engineering and programming run amok ? The agendas are not dissimilar and the methods are thee same.






BTW Even though that woman clearly lost it, who the heck hasn't? Freaking out about a teenager is the usual for most parents I've spoken to.


Indeed, but not for the kid thinking ! The woman gave birth to a person not a droid !






The kid didn't really seemed as fazed as one would think, and didn't seem to care about the gifts, either.


Dude, did you miss the bit where the sibling was filming ? The kids were obviously not impressed with the religion shoved down their throats,




[edit on 5-1-2010 by moocowman]



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 11:33 AM
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reply to post by Parallex
 

yeah, because you sound sooo rational and there's no way you're going to come off as a "fundie". got anything to actually add to the discussion or did you just want to spread your hatred about a bit?

reply to post by Deaf Alien
 


it's fairly near impossible to come up with a selfless act, i don't really see any point in talking about morality without reward.

there's also the inconvenient fact that most religions have a system of atonement, forgiveness of immorality. i don't see any reason to believe that people behave in a moral way for the sake of fear.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 11:37 AM
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reply to post by pieman
 



give me some evidence or logical argument that the actual religious belief is destructive to the child, physically or mentally.


Can you tell me that the children in this clip are not being psychologically abused by the preacher? Do you honestly think they are crying because they understand they are sinning against 'God'? This is psychological abuse and most likely they will procure some mental scars because of this ignorant lady.




posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 11:39 AM
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reply to post by sirnex
 


are you suggesting that that is the only way in which religion is taught to children?



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 11:43 AM
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reply to post by pieman
 



it's fairly near impossible to come up with a selfless act, i don't really see any point in talking about morality without reward.


Statements like that possibly show the true nature of the person who make's those statements. I've performed many selfless acts without reward in my days. In some cases, doing the right thing by helping some turn out to be a negative thing for my family.

We took in one woman and her children because she was being abused by her husband. Hardy knew her from a hole in the wall, but abuse is abuse, something *has* to be done about that. Long story short, she went back to her husband a couple of weeks later, shut off my electricity at the circuit breaker and had her husband nearly drive us off the road. Certainly no reward there for such a selfless act of good will.

And I have many more stories if your interested in what a true selfless act is.


there's also the inconvenient fact that most religions have a system of atonement, forgiveness of immorality. i don't see any reason to believe that people behave in a moral way for the sake of fear.


Ah yes, the religious 'get out of jail' card. I love that one, commit a crime, repent and your as good as new in the eye's of the almighty. Again, why be moral? How can I trust someone who has such a loophole in place to cloud their judgment? Repent and everything is fine? No wonder priests rape little boys and think they can get away with it.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 11:44 AM
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Originally posted by pieman
reply to post by sirnex
 


are you suggesting that that is the only way in which religion is taught to children?


Not the only way it can be taught, but certainly teaching in such a manner *is* abusive. Unless you don't agree?



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