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Don't shoot the messenger!

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posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 07:32 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
reply to post by Haydn_17
 


On that I agree

However one can take information from a long standing member like Phage that has earned our respect and use it for a good starting point into our own research.

Semper


What's up semperfortis?...I don't expect that this post will see the light of day especially after your work on another thread, but, I will challenge you on this...Forge your own opinions instead of relying on the work of others no matter how long said member has been here. Everyone, including Phage, is fallible, and yes...even Phage has been wrong on far more than one occasion.

Now, before you erase this...

This post is on topic, has no insults of any kind, and addresses everything that the OP was referring to. Mine is an alternate opinion, and if ATS does not support alternate opinions then we might as well be living in China.




posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 07:34 PM
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Originally posted by Haydn_17
reply to post by semperfortis
 


But you still have to remember, he is human like everyone else.

He can make mistakes, you shouldnt just accept his word for it without doing your own research.


Agreed. There are too many people on here, mods included, that simply take his word as gospel. I'm noticing that ATS is becoming something that it was not intended to be.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 07:44 PM
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Originally posted by UmbraSumus

Originally posted by hellfrozeover
reply to post by semperfortis
 


Oh I get it.......you have to be part of the click of the ATS for years......so all us newbies here don't deserve respect. Got it now, thanks for the clarification.


Thats unwarranted .

Respect is earned .

This site is well moderated ..... perhaps this will become more apparent to you the longer you are here .




I'll have to say that your opinion of the moderation on this site is exactly that. YOUR OPINION. Since you cannot provide proof of this statement, and many disagree with you assessment, you'll just have to suffice to say that your analysis is entirely subjective to your own interpretation.

I've watched many posts disappear that have been ON TOPIC and completely relevant to the content because a mod disagreed with the statements made by others. I've also watched people receive applause for highly charged and defaming statements. There should be a greater sense of balance, but, as it were, the balance is being tipped towards aggressive skeptics whom are allowed to say anything they choose against someone with whom they disagree.

This very thing happened to me 3 days ago. A particular MOD, who is actually moderating this thread, chose to delete several of my posts that were completely on topic and relevant to the issue. Then, they allowed many of the posts of the person that I was addressing remain without allowing my point of view to be seen. As a matter of fact, several other members U2U'd me to inform me how unfair it was that my thoughts were removed and did not share the same view of the moderator who did it. I put in a complaint, and lo and behold, NOTHING HAPPENED. This is not an isolated incident either. This has happened to several very intelligent posters as of late, and its becoming quite frustrating when MODS lose their objectivity and engage in open censorship.

I respect ATS and the fact that we can somewhat speak our minds, however, things are getting a little out of hand.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 07:47 PM
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Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
Mine is an alternate opinion, and if ATS does not support alternate opinions then we might as well be living in China.


That's why I moved there


Seriously though, this is a valuable thread - or at least the rationale for it being here is.

I'm not known for having the patience of Job, as borne out by some of my replies in various threads. But I nevertheless aim in every single post to be informative to some degree.

Where I tend to draw the line, is where people start using the "this is a conspiarcy web site" argument to attack conventional/current scientific/intellectual understanding of a given subject!

I think it's crucial that people new to this thread, and moreover, new to critical thinking don't get caught up in the "it's OK to deny facts" mindset that permeates many threads.

A solid, factually-supported argument is what counts. This should be drilled in to all members - new and old.

Regards,
Matt

PS. Maybe...maybe not: I like your writing style and opinion. I sense something....something I have not felt since........
;-)



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 07:52 PM
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Originally posted by mckyle

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
Mine is an alternate opinion, and if ATS does not support alternate opinions then we might as well be living in China.


That's why I moved there


Seriously though, this is a valuable thread - or at least the rationale for it being here is.

I'm not known for having the patience of Job, as borne out by some of my replies in various threads. But I nevertheless aim in every single post to be informative to some degree.

Where I tend to draw the line, is where people start using the "this is a conspiarcy web site" argument to attack conventional/current scientific/intellectual understanding of a given subject!

I think it's crucial that people new to this thread, and moreover, new to critical thinking don't get caught up in the "it's OK to deny facts" mindset that permeates many threads.

A solid, factually-supported argument is what counts. This should be drilled in to all members - new and old.

Regards,
Matt

PS. Maybe...maybe not: I like your writing style and opinion. I sense something....something I have not felt since........
;-)


I agree. Your statement was well thought out and delivered nicely.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 07:53 PM
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Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
I put in a complaint, and lo and behold, NOTHING HAPPENED. This is not an isolated incident either. This has happened to several very intelligent posters as of late, and its becoming quite frustrating when MODS lose their objectivity and engage in open censorship.

I respect ATS and the fact that we can somewhat speak our minds, however, things are getting a little out of hand.


I totally support that.

Whilst I think overall the Mods do a great job - Semperfortis being one such example - others, at time, let down their professional guard, and fail to do what is expected of them in the capacity of moderator.

I'm not going to go into a bitch session about this, because as I said, overall, Mods do a great job under sometimes difficult circumstances. But it would be nice if they at least acknowledged correspondence addressed to them.


[edit on 3-1-2010 by mckyle]



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 07:55 PM
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reply to post by EvolvedMinistry
 


Thank you
I was thinking the same thing about you



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 08:16 PM
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reply to post by C.H.U.D.
 


ATs needs skeptics. But I don't like when the name calling starts, or when skeptics call a thread a hoax 5 minutes after the thread has started. Phage does allow a decent amount of time and spectulation go before the debunking begins.

[edit on 3-1-2010 by Teeky]



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 08:19 PM
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Originally posted by mckyle
reply to post by EvolvedMinistry
 


Thank you
I was thinking the same thing about you



Yeah...all in all, I do appreciate ATS. This forum is great for finding information out quickly that one would normally have to spend tons of time digging for. And, I'm sure that Semperfortis is good, however, I highly disagree with how he/she handled the thread that I was speaking of before in one of my previous posts.

The one really cool thing about ATS is finding like minded individuals and being able to discuss an array of topics.

And I will say, it has been a pleasure to make your acquaintance McKyle. Happy new year to all the posters by the way. Its officially 2010. Let's see what kind of news this year brings us. I hope we get something even crazier than the sky spiral this year!

Again...Happy New Year to everyone on ATS!!!


[edit on 3-1-2010 by EvolvedMinistry]



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 08:21 PM
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Originally posted by C.H.U.D.

Hello fellow ATSers,

It always saddens me when I see members here posting factual info that is relevant to a particular thread, and that sheds light on a case in question, but often times leads to the poster of said info being attacked for "debunking" or "spreading disinfo".

How has this nonsensical situation arisen?

If someone spots a hoax (or misidentification), posts the relevant info to prove that something is a hoax, and stops more people from falling for a hoax, how is that a bad thing?

I've seen people on here bashing skeptics like Phage for helping to clarify the facts, and quite frankly I've had enough of this nonsense.

Without people like Phage, ATS would be swamped with hoaxes, mis-identifications, and unchecked pseudo-scientific garbage. Is that what people here really want?

What I see here on ATS, day in, day out, is people being attacked for using logic and fact.

If you can't use logic and facts, what else is there, and why is it such a surprise to believers that UFOs are not taken seriously by the mainstream when most of what we call UFOlogy today is based on assumption and pseudo-science?


I've been a vicitim of said attacks and I've initiated threads to that account. But your selecting Phage as a victim is not as true as you'd like others to believe. While it goes without saying that Phage's presence on the forum has been beneficial to some who see him as some kind of panacea, there are others who deserve more of the honor you reap on Phage.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 08:28 PM
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Originally posted by The Shrike

Originally posted by C.H.U.D.

Hello fellow ATSers,

It always saddens me when I see members here posting factual info that is relevant to a particular thread, and that sheds light on a case in question, but often times leads to the poster of said info being attacked for "debunking" or "spreading disinfo".

How has this nonsensical situation arisen?

If someone spots a hoax (or misidentification), posts the relevant info to prove that something is a hoax, and stops more people from falling for a hoax, how is that a bad thing?

I've seen people on here bashing skeptics like Phage for helping to clarify the facts, and quite frankly I've had enough of this nonsense.

Without people like Phage, ATS would be swamped with hoaxes, mis-identifications, and unchecked pseudo-scientific garbage. Is that what people here really want?

What I see here on ATS, day in, day out, is people being attacked for using logic and fact.

If you can't use logic and facts, what else is there, and why is it such a surprise to believers that UFOs are not taken seriously by the mainstream when most of what we call UFOlogy today is based on assumption and pseudo-science?


I've been a vicitim of said attacks and I've initiated threads to that account. But your selecting Phage as a victim is not as true as you'd like others to believe. While it goes without saying that Phage's presence on the forum has been beneficial to some who see him as some kind of panacea, there are others who deserve more of the honor you reap on Phage.


Beautifully stated. Thank you for providing your opinion and pointing out the fact that there are many other intelligent posters here on ATS worthy of the same respect that is automatically granted to Phage.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 08:35 PM
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You guys want some tea and scones with your gossip bitching session?

Why this need to go after another member out in the open?

You don't like Phage or anyone else that is indeed your right ... I for one appreciate ANYONE who comes with knowledge, sources, sound reasoning, and a respectful disposition.

I wish we had many more members like that!

Either way, your comments reek of personal vexation and insecurity complexes ... surely there's a mirror somewhere you can go blame for who you are!


[edit on 3 Jan 2010 by schrodingers dog]



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 08:37 PM
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Originally posted by mckyle

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
Mine is an alternate opinion, and if ATS does not support alternate opinions then we might as well be living in China.



PS. Maybe...maybe not: I like your writing style and opinion. I sense something....something I have not felt since........
;-)


Excellent...you're using your feelings. Keep honing in because you're not far off. I'm positive of this.

I think we may have other things to speak of in the future.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 08:42 PM
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Originally posted by schrodingers dog
You guys want some tea and scones with your gossip bitching session?

Why this need to go after another member out in the open?

You don't like Phage or anyone else that is indeed your right ... I for one appreciate ANYONE who comes with knowledge, sources, sound reasoning, and a respectful disposition.

I wish we had many more members like that!

Either way, your comments reeks of personal vexation and insecurity complexes ... surely there's a mirror somewhere you can go blame for who you are!


Well said SD


Some individuals just don't like it when their reality is challenged!

And I too think that naming Phage in the context of a negative attack is offensive to say the least. Indeed, as EvolvedMinistry has noted, there are many other worthy contributors comparbale to Phage, however, I feel that his patience and restraint in the face of some inflammatory comments, makes him a rare breed to be sure!

I have the utmost respect for him because of this.

[edit on 3-1-2010 by mckyle]



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry


I think we may have other things to speak of in the future.


I sincerely hope we do
I've enjoyed reading your thoughts on a number of threads. You put forward a very thoughtful post, full of clarity - and may I say - humanity


[edit on 3-1-2010 by mckyle]



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 09:17 PM
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Originally posted by C.H.U.D.


In my humble opinion, the best solution would be to have a team of critical thinking individuals who's job it would be to vote on which cases merit staying open, and those that defy all logical explanation should be moved to a new form where only mods and the afore mentioned team are allowed to post/move threads.




I'm not sure this would be possible. While Karl Popper in his essay 'Science: Conjectures and Refutations' attempted to develop a system whereby a given scientific belief could be considered well corroborated if that belief survives repeated attempts at refutation, Imre Lakatos in his essay 'Falsification and the Methodology of Scientific Research Programmes' showed how there is no way to disprove a belief because there is always a legitimate ceteris paribus clause protecting any belief from a logically necessary refutation. I'm not sure of the exact translation but I think ceteris paribus can be very loosely translated into English as the phrase "yabut." As in 'yabut your scientific recording instruments are either malfunctioning or are built according to some flawed theories about the relationship of optics or electronics with the natural world they were designed to test and measure.' Lakatos then tried to 'rescue' the whole scientific system (that to this day still relies heavily on Popper's theories on the philosophy of science despite Lakatos successfully undermining many of Popper's central tenets) by giving heavy importance to the value of the judgment of the scientific community in deciding what does or does not constitute a refutation. This attempted rescue I believe also fails because relying on the judgment of the scientific community is just a glorified way of relying on the argument from authority which is an epistemologically very weak, at best, form of justification.

So where does that leave us? I'd recommend following the advice of William James in his essay 'the Will to Believe' whereby if after intellectually examining opposing positions one does not find a clear indication of which is true then go with the position where one's passions lead to.

I do, however, wholeheartedly agree that one should not attack the messenger no matter how far afield that messenger is from one's own beliefs.


[edit on 3-1-2010 by QtheQ]

[edit on 3-1-2010 by QtheQ]



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 09:20 PM
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reply to post by mckyle
 


Did you know Charlie Sheen's wife is a reptilian?

Good god....what's the poor guy going to do?

Do you think Phage can help?



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 10:22 PM
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Originally posted by mckyle

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry


I think we may have other things to speak of in the future.


I sincerely hope we do
I've enjoyed reading your thoughts on a number of threads. You put forward a very thoughtful post, full of clarity - and may I say - humanity


[edit on 3-1-2010 by mckyle]


Excellent. I'm glad you seem to be on a different level than most. It should be interesting to see what the future brings.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 10:23 PM
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Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
reply to post by C.H.U.D.
 


Oh my...someone has a crush on Phage. Forgive my sarcasm (Truly), but this has gotten ridiculous. Apparently there are many members here who feel the same way that you do and together, you all share a common goal in your starry eyed view of your savior. However, many of the other "free thinkers" on this forum are worried about a cult mentality being formed from the people who depend on Phage to do their thinking for them. Its the MSM mentality all over again. I guess its true, there are far more followers than there are leaders and the weak always gravitate towards someone who can show them the "light." Turn your head and cough...okay, we're finished here.

Don't get me wrong, its not Phage's fault that you guys gravitate towards someone that you feel is superior to yourselves, but, its just a little creepy that your thoughts, actions, and opinions are dependent on the workings of one particular member. So now, it seems, one of his "followers" have actually made a thread dedicated to him. You guys have lost what is left of your highly dependent minds.



[edit on 3-1-2010 by EvolvedMinistry]



If I could give you 100 stars I would. Thank you for saying what I was about to anyway.

I think what disturbs me is how many people in this world are all too willing to give away their power to someone else who offers an answer to their question. It is almost like a cult, or a cult following. Now you can get on here and say you don't worship this particular member or that particular member but when all you have to contribute to a thread is I can't wait to hear what ____ says about this one" or "Let's all wait until ___ gets here before we come to any conclusions" that's the same as worship to me.

Whatever happened to people who think for themselves? It honestly is scary to me how many followers there are in this world which should explain why we as a whole are in the mess that we are in.

I think people are frightened and feel that they are not worthy to formulate an opinion and stick to it even in the face of all mighty ____.

Any douchebag can google an article from an official mainstream website.
Can anyone honestly tell me which of the members on ATS who inspire a cult following generates their conclusions based on independant research???

I am waiting..... tick tock.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 10:26 PM
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reply to post by EvolvedMinistry
 


Please don't turn this thread into a thread about Phage. That was not my intention, and I'm sorry that I mentioned any names now. I was only using him as an example since most here know him.

Actually, although I respect Phage for his extensive knowledge and the way he conducts himself here, he is not the object of my desires that you so colorfully make him out to be.

Phage is human like the rest of us, and I am certainly not one to put him on a pedastool, but he does deserve credit where credit is due. Crush... Not by a long ways.

I also don't like the fact that people (yourself included) accuse others of being "Phage followers", but I've come to expect that from people that seem to have difficulty thinking for themselves, and I think most people out there can see through your attempts to try and derail a thread by attacking the person rather than the argument.



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