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Don't shoot the messenger!

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posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 02:15 PM
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A friendly reminder that "DON'T BE A JERK" appears eight times on this list:

Simplified Terms and Conditions of Membership for the AboveTopSecret.com Message Board(s)


By becoming a member of these domains, you agree to the following:


1). Posting: You shouldn't lie.

1a) Offensive Content: Don't be a jerk.

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1d.) Cross-Posting: You shouldn't spam the web.

1e.) Recruitment/Solicitation: You won't gather personal info of members for any reason.

1f.) Relevant Content: You will stay on-topic in threads.

1g.) Political Baiting: Don't be a jerk.

1h.) Spamming: Don't be a jerk.

1i.) Language: You should post in english.

1j.) Video links/embeds: Describe the stuff in your links.


2) Behavior: Don't be a jerk.

2a.) Identity Spoofing: You shouldn't lie.

2b.) HaXor: No computer hacking stuff.

2c.) Multiple Accounts: Don't be a jerk.

2d.) Forum Gangs: Don't be a jerk.

2e.) Illicit Activity: Don't be a stoner here.

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2g.) Board Wars: Don't be a jerk.

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5) Personal Responsibilities: Don't be a jerk.

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7) Violation If you screw up, you might be banned.


8) Right of Community Management We just might ban trolls on-sight.

.

[edit on 3 Jan 10 by Gools]




posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 02:16 PM
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reply to post by semperfortis
 


Why would it be self serving for me to say this? I am only stating the situations that I have observered. Why would I lie? What is in it for me?

If you beleive that discussing these topics are against the T&C, wouldn't the rational mind ask why?

And it is FACT, that Mr. Bill, did make that statement. Why would he? And it is FACT that I was unwarrantly warned and when I questioned it to the Mods, it feel to deaf ears and I never received a response?

These are just a few of many observations.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 02:17 PM
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Logically...if you dont like what advice or conjecture an experienced or new member gives within a thread ask yourself why. I have learned from experienced and new members alike.

I have also witnessed them shoot themselves in the foot and putting their hands in the air shouting "I screwed up" with that one. All are human facets that should not cause disharmony because, you the individual are in total control.

Whether experienced in a field or new to ATS the proclaimer can be questioned on their facts, information and evidence. Do it.

Personally I have concerns about phage being mentioned in threads like this and others. I think it amounts to talking behind someones back and would advise if you have a bone to pick be a man/woman and do it face to face.

You/ me/ we have the right to accept or decline information added to a thread from whomever we want.

Respects



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 02:18 PM
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I think there is too much pride in posting your argument. People are afraid to say okay i'm wrong, you were right.

There is nothing wrong with being wrong! The MSM isn't going to tell us any of this stuff, this forum's many inquiries into the unknown are completely handled by users. I think it's bound to happen that people are going to get some parts wrong.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 02:28 PM
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reply to post by Gools
 


Please explain how I am being a jerk? I am only answering to the people who are responding to what I have posted?

Also, why all the post removals? Are you removing the others as well?

Or is it just me, the one who doesn't agree that is being punished?



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 02:33 PM
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On Topic

"Don't shoot the messenger!"

I think that we can accept that there will always be "attackers" of our opinions; that is simply the nature of the beast when deal with Alternative Subjects. We all feel strongly about what we post and no one wants to see that go away.

A thick skin is definitely required when dealing with subjects like this Forum and others.

Yet, I also think that the defense of Members that are attacked, Members that have worked hard to earn our respect is something that we as a group should consider as well.

Just my 2 cents

Semper



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 02:43 PM
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reply to post by semperfortis
 


Hey semper, I didn't mean for this to go the way it has, but it did prove a point, to me at least.

No ill feeling on my end, hope the feeling is mutual.

Peace



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 02:52 PM
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Almost every time a silly theory gets debunked, questioned or it's flaws get revealed the supporters turn into the crowd with pitchforks and torches.
Something like this:




Why should anyone believe your HAARP/torsion field/Flying-SpaghettiMonster theory if you fail to support it with evidence or a reasonable explanation?
There are a lot of people on this site who choose to live in a dream world and ignore everything that is science related. They often fail to understand even the simplest laws of physics. Just because you don't understand science doesn't mean that the skeptic is wrong.

I hope this post makes sense.


[edit on 3/1/2010 by DGFenrir]



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 03:04 PM
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Well, Phage is a respected member here on ATS thats for sure but we must remember Phage may have lets say specialities in some areas but not every area just as I have specialities in certain areas and not others and the same with everyone.

Whether anyone wants to believe or disbelieve in Aliens and ufo's is each choice but to say aliens and ufo's are not real because it doesn't fit into the reality that the human knows and it doesn't make sense is wrong in my opinion.

There are species that have two eyes, a nose, mouth, two ears, two hands, two legs that are parallyl to the human that may only breathe thin air or no air at all. Just because the Human thrives in a certain enviroment doesn't mean other life species need what we need to survive.

What might kill them here (example with some) oxygen..... if we were in their enviroment it would kill us (examples) the deepest of our Earth waters or space

How can the Human Being understand other life forms and their enviroments if they don't completely understand there own. As a whole this race still works on theories even though I must admit we are slowly learning.

My word is my bond to you that UFO's and Alien's are real and many things on the net with pictures and knowledge is spot on.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 03:22 PM
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I have no problem with people being skeptical after doing some research to reach that conclusion. I do it myself.

My problem is the recent phenomena of people adopting skepticism as their identity. They enter any thread with the preconceived notion that they are a Skeptic and must therefore act as a contrarian, and focus selectively on the data that suits their agenda of bolstering their skeptic identity.

Professional skeptics like Shermer are making money off the cult of skeptics. But skeptics always point to fringe researchers and scientist as charlatans if they try to sell books or videos.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 04:01 PM
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back to the topic at hand. With few exceptions,.... no.. people like phage, Jkrog08, Internos, DoomsdayRex, and the list goes on of the cynically sardonic ones.. (i love them all) they show evidence, and referendum to back their claims. I think the people that have a problem with them are more pissy because they didnt get that proverbial last cookie before the afore mentioned did. I had one of the pissy little dick bags U2U a threat to me. he didnt know I lived in the same city, and i went to accept the challenge..... the acceptance wasnt acceptible to the issuer of said threat. Frankly, if someone is willing to show they did the research, and throw up references so I too can see where they got the info to be a little more up to speed, cool. if you're just going to name call, and say nuh uh, them by all means.. piss off.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 04:07 PM
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Thank you for sharing. "Nothing is true - everything is permissible." De Sade. I take comfort in the following: www.youtube.com...



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 04:11 PM
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Originally posted by schrodingers dog

Originally posted by hellfrozeover
reply to post by semperfortis
 


Thank you for clarifing that for me.....now, if I said people like you are smart......I am only implying you are smart, not a direct statement, yes?


Troll psychology:



Now, what is it that you want?

[edit on 3 Jan 2010 by schrodingers dog]


Shouldn't there be a small area in that pie chart for the egotrip portion? I'm normally very shy in person, lately I've been getting my skin shed so to speak and just not giving a damn anymore what people think of me, while probably a really bad thing, it's due to RL stuff that is forcing me to rethink a lot of my life and choices I've made. I've made a few friends here, even gained a foe (who I do talk to btw, it's not a bad thing) and all in all had a lot of fun.

There are threads that upset me greatly, I'm involved in one right now, but it's not enough to make me lash out at the general population of ATS, nor do I feel I'm being ignored o r belittled because i haven't been on for 5 10 or 15 years... Like everywhere else, you only get as much out of it as you put into it, and if you go in with a defeatest sour attitude, that's what you'll get out of it.

I knwo I'm rambling...so I'll shut up now.

s-dog you should have a u2u



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 05:11 PM
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As one of the relatively few people on the board who is a skeptic and not a baser, I have always found a great deal of respect from all sides.

If one wishes to be respected and have ones posts actually read and understood - all you have to do is put yourself in the shoes of the poster, especially the newbie.

The most obvious question I receive is why do I even post on the site (albeit I haven't posted responses for a while - more on that later).

The answer is that whilst I am a skeptic I am actually firm in my beliefs that there are and have been multiple instances of unusual aerial phenomena and I want more proof of these events, therefore I lurk on the site to find such posts.

As an inevitable result I feel compelled to respond to those posts that are blatantly flawed or inaccurate, or fake... but more often posts made by people who are desperate to prove their beliefs.

A word to those who feel the urge to post skeptical responses on this (or any serious) forum...

Have a point - don't bother posting unless you have some factual comment... a great example is showing other posts by the poster, other videos by the you-tuber that clearly show something such as blatant fake.

Be courteous - whilst you might be frustrated - the poster is having his dream bashed.

Explain your position - mine is that I want to encourage posts by everyone (otherwise you scare off the real posts) but I want people to give all the information that they can, dates, time frames, witnesses, clear concise descriptions etc... so I'll often ask the poster for more information or more information before simply discarding the posts.

For those posts where it is impossible to prove or dis-prove - such as descriptions of long-past events etc... I am less interested in dis-proving and more interested in seeing if anyone else can add additional witness testimony.

Finally - and slightly off topic(!) - the biggest post of the year (aka Norway Spiral) interested me most from a different perspective - that it reached the prime time news and that any large event (ie massive night time display) is clearly (in these times) witnessed and taped by multiple sources... therefore if I see posts of incredible events in the daytime or night sky - I expect that such events will be supported (if they actually happened) by multiple witnesses - just like the Norway event.

hmmmm... food for thought eh!

askbaby.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 05:58 PM
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Firstly, thank you all for your replies, and for keeping the discussion civil and constructive. I will do my best to respond to any points or questions put to me (if there are any), but this thread has grown quickly and I am not as speedy as most posters are here on ATS, but I will try none the less.

reply to post by semperfortis
 




The people that bash Phage and others like him are simply insecure.

Revealing the truth is what this is all about and those that can't handle the truth, will forever belittle and degrade those that expose it.

Disagreement is the first step towards enlightenment.


Thank you Semper. I think you hit the nail squarely on the head there.

Perhaps the example I mentioned in the OP was a bit towards the more extreme range on the spectrum, and for 99% of ATS's active members Phage remains "the gold standard" as a source of reliable info.



reply to post by hellfrozeover
 



Honestly, it's not Phage that gets me upset, it's the Phage wanna-bees that are rude and resort to name calling that upset me. Phage is a very intelligent and respectful individual, which personally I respect. I just don't give him the praise most think is warranted....after all his just a mere human, yes?


I agree with what you said about Phage, but he is not the only one who posts good info here.

What gets me is that Phage is often touted as the "be all/end all", when there are lots of other contributers out there who provide just as factual information.

Yes, his attitude and the manner in which he replies is almost "super-human" in terms of politeness. He set's the "gold standard" here, and I think we can all agree on that.

As a skeptic and contributer myself, I try to be polite, but sometimes it's not easy and I'll admit that sometimes I have been "wound-up" to the point where I have said things that were uncalled for.

I apologize unreservedly for this, and wish that I could always conduct myself in a manner as civil as Phage does, but I hope those "on the other side of the fence" can see that everyone reacts differently in a situation, and all too often I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall. I have no doubt other skeptics on here will also feel this way, and I know that believers also feel the same way (but for different reasons obviously), so please take this into account when you judge a person's intentions.


reply to post by Haydn_17
 



People bash Phage because they hate how everyone takes his word for it, and it must be true because the infamous Phage said it..



That is true, but why bash Phage? It's the people who blindly follow that are doing the damage. Phage can't be held responsible for the actions of others.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 06:15 PM
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If you can't use logic and facts, what else is there, and why is it such a surprise to believers that UFOs are not taken seriously by the mainstream when most of what we call UFOlogy today is based on assumption and pseudo-science?


I use my Ouija Board to determine fact from fiction! If the spirit guides don’t indicate a clear and precise answer then I turn to animal sacrifice and read the entrails for signs and portents.

In the rare case that this does not work then I try the I Ch’ing.

If need be then I consult a Tarot Card Reader but I hate that because that costs money!

How much does Phage charge?



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 06:34 PM
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reply to post by C.H.U.D.
 




That is true, but why bash Phage? It's the people who blindly follow that are doing the damage. Phage can't be held responsible for the actions of others.


People that blindly follow anything are doing the damage.



As a skeptic and contributer myself, I try to be polite, but sometimes it's not easy and I'll admit that sometimes I have been "wound-up" to the point where I have said things that were uncalled for.


We've all been there.



As for people speculating into the personality and confidence level of other posters, this seems unwise. Trolls are people like everyone else and should be lead in the right direction, corrected, and if all else fails, banned.

The only thing we should assume about other posters, moderators, and the site owners is that they are human or possibly some advanced A.I.
, nothing else.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 07:11 PM
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Originally posted by pazcat
Mods or whoever pulls the strings could be a bit more pro-active aswell.
Many a thread is allowed to continue after the hoax or fraud has been uncovered, which is fine but it should be then moved to the HOAX forum or skunkworks.
It does seem like flags and traffic matter more sometimes.


I think you make a good point pazcat, and I agree.

Mods, you do a great job under difficult circumstances, and I for one appreciate what you do here, but it would be great if we could "draw a line in the sand" a little sooner sometimes, in cases where there is clear evidence to support rational explanation.

In many cases I have seen here, despite overwhelming evidence that a sighting can have been due to something mundane, the thread is left open to collect ever more un-thought out theories and in some cases wild claims that are never backed up with any real proof, although it may appear that way to those who are perhaps a bit naive (although no one on here would ever admit to it).

In my humble opinion, the best solution would be to have a team of critical thinking individuals who's job it would be to vote on which cases merit staying open, and those that defy all logical explanation should be moved to a new form where only mods and the afore mentioned team are allowed to post/move threads.

That way, many would be spared the impression that all the activity and "unsolved" cases on this forum represent evidence that ET is visiting here, which is something that ATS should IMHO be careful to avoid doing at all costs, or else it can be argued that ATS is not doing all it can to "deny ignorance". That does not mean that ETs should not be discussed or talked about, but it would be easier for people to gauge or grasp the wider, and more importantly a more realistic picture.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 07:12 PM
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reply to post by DGFenrir
 


I assume you're referring to my post. I never mentioned a spaghetti-monster, nor did I offer an explanation I 'believe' to be the correct one. I was simply stating that it does make sense for people to disagree and even dislike a person who claims to have an answer for everything, especially if that person is deriving their answer from a search engine and have done no hands-on research. Scouring the net for answers is some # anyone can do, some people just have more time to do it.

As I already stated, I wasn't writing to knock the person, I was simply stating that justifying the disregard you may have for people who don't believe the so called, "knowledgeable" personalities on ATS is hypocritical. Shouldn't we all be able to voice our 'opinions'? Seeing as how most of us are not researchers, but rather people who read a couple news articles, check a couple web sites and think we 'know' everything.

Only to have them tell you Pluto isn't a planet. Now go figure... I beat you weren't thinking that before the scientist mentioned it to be fact.

Either way, without palpable proof, who the F really cares what anyone else says?



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 07:22 PM
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reply to post by C.H.U.D.
 


Oh my...someone has a crush on Phage. Forgive my sarcasm (Truly), but this has gotten ridiculous. Apparently there are many members here who feel the same way that you do and together, you all share a common goal in your starry eyed view of your savior. However, many of the other "free thinkers" on this forum are worried about a cult mentality being formed from the people who depend on Phage to do their thinking for them. Its the MSM mentality all over again. I guess its true, there are far more followers than there are leaders and the weak always gravitate towards someone who can show them the "light." Turn your head and cough...okay, we're finished here.

Don't get me wrong, its not Phage's fault that you guys gravitate towards someone that you feel is superior to yourselves, but, its just a little creepy that your thoughts, actions, and opinions are dependent on the workings of one particular member. So now, it seems, one of his "followers" have actually made a thread dedicated to him. You guys have lost what is left of your highly dependent minds.



[edit on 3-1-2010 by EvolvedMinistry]



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