Biblical scholar's date for rapture: May 21, 2011

Originally posted by mamabeth
The antichrist will sign a covenant with Israel.He will break the covenant
three and a half years later.He will place an idol in the third temple and
force people to worship the image.This desecrates God's temple in an
act of defiance against God and His chosen people.
I hope this link will help.

That quote is a Futurist interpretation of these verses:

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

There is another way to interpret that (with my notes added in bolds and parentheses):

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince (The Birth of Jesus Christ) shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off (Three and a half years into Christ Ministry he will be put to Death), but not for himself(Christ dies for our sins): and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (The Roman Legions take control of Jerusalem, they were in control of it already during Christs lifetime); and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined (the War of the Jews with the Romans). And he (Jesus Christ) shall confirm the covenant (Comfirmed Gods Covenant to man that he would send us a savior) with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (In the middle of Christs ministry he is put to death on the cross and makes the ultimate sacrifice, thereby rendering any Jewish animal sacrifice for forgiveness invalid. This is also mentioned in Matthew 27:51 “And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom”.), and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (the Jews who rejected the messiah that was sent to them are destroyed along with their country, the Jews who converted to Christianity saw the coming events as Christ foretold and fled Jerusalem before the Siege of the city)

Originally posted by mamabeth
I will repeat,your doctrine is wrong.

Please show me where I am wrong so far. Up until now you just tell me I am wrong and do not tell me in what way I am wrong.

BTW, If I am wrong then so was Martin Luther, (founder of the Lutheran Church and the person who not only started the Protestant Reformation, but made the first bibles available to the common man), John Wesley (founder of the Methodist Church), and John Calvin (founder of the Calvinism, and the Presbyterian Church). You can find everything I am typing here in John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Bible:
Wesley's Notes

Originally posted by mamabeth
My stepson studied coine greek and hebrew in Bible college.

Great for him...
So what...
I guess that is supposed to mean that he knows more about Christian Eschatology then the founders of the Original Protestant Religions did?

Originally posted by mamabeth
I don't know which scriptures you read, I read the King James version and the Torah.

I have read many translations, but I mainly use the King James because it is the most widely accepted.

reply to post by defcon5


That is because it is a futuristic prophecy.The 10 plagues, in the old
testament are a precursory to the tribulation(Jacob's trouble).Which we
will be entering into shortly.

Originally posted by defcon5
Sorry I research out of books and history, not from Youtube videos.

If you watch the video you will realize that it came from a DVD. He uses scientific evidence to prove so many things, and if your going to blindly close your eyes just because he decided to put it on youtube then you cant prove it wrong..like i said watch it then prove it wrong.

[edit on 19-1-2010 by 100Grand]

Let me clarify something, I seem to be having two convos at onece. the Lee Strobel Video is proving creationism over evolutionism. If you research Lee Strobel you will find that he is very Credible.

On the contrary

Originally posted by defcon5
The two legs can be the main subdivisions of the Roman Empire into the Eastern and Western Empires, and the ten toes are the ten kingdoms of the Rome:

1.Alemanni - Germany.
2.Visigoths - Spain.
3.Franks - France.
4.Anglo-Saxons - England.
5.Burgundians - Switzerland.
6.Ostrogoths - Exterminated.
7.Suevi - Portugal.
8.Lombards - Italy.
9.Vandals - Exterminated.
10.Heruli - Exterminated.

I don't believe this to be true, however it could be. If you look at what the European Union, it seems to be a revived roman empire. It also seems very interesting that they would divide all the countries into 10 regions, and I believe there will be 3 of the 10 who don't agree with the future ruler of the European Ruler and he "the antichrist" will obliterate them.

Daniel 8:23 says the fourth beast, or kingdom, will devour the whole Earth. Not just the countries above. Maybe your interpretation is right and this is just a continuation of the prophecy, then in verse 26, it says it will be completely destroyed FOREVER, and then 27 says it will be handed to the saints, an EVERLASTING kingdom, and the rulers will worship and obey him. Obviously this hasn't happened yet. Jesus has not come back, according to preterists who say this all happened in 75 AD. John didn't finish revelation until 90 AD.

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by Melissa101
The chapter goes on to talk about the tribulation starting after the abomination of desolation, which could not mean after the antichrist sits in the throne in the Temple, because the antichrist comes after the tribulation starts.

The tribulation did start after the destruction of Jerusalem, in 70AD. The entirety of Revelations is about the final age, the “Age of the Gentiles/Church”.

And thus with this statement alone, you lost all credibility with me.

First, it's the book of Revelation. Singular. Not Plural. It is one of my biggest pet peeves when people who claim to understand scripture make this mistake.

Second, the entire book is defined in Revelation Chapter 1, verse 1.

The Revelation (or Unveiling) of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him (who? Jesus Christ), to shew unto his servants (Who? You) things which must shortly come to pass; (Greek word means, when it starts, it happens quickly) and he sent and signified [it] (ie, rendered it in Signs that are ALL explained by the OT and NT) by his angel unto his servant John

If you can't understand the first verse in the book which is plain as day, how can you explain the remaining chapters -- much less state that it is completed?

Third, make sure to underline the word 'until' in your scripture.

Israel has a very real place in the future, and it was promised by God that he WOULD fulfill these.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Paul hammers away in 3 chapters of Romans, which could be otherwise known as the Gospel according to Paul that Israel DOES have a future. This is from a man who said he would trade his own salvation, fully understanding WHAT that meant, if Israel would be saved because of it.

Your theology is incorrect. You have placed your belief above what the scripture says as truth. Either God is a liar, or you are. Take a guess which one I will side with? Hint below.

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: ...yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Isaiah 46:10, 11

I don't think God was speaking allegorically.

Originally posted by Not Authorized


Your theology is incorrect. You have placed your belief above what the scripture says as truth. Either God is a liar, or you are. Take a guess which one I will side with? Hint below.

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: ...yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Isaiah 46:10, 11

I don't think God was speaking allegorically.

HIGH FIVE

You shall know them by their fruits!

How do you recognise a false prophet?

When the prophesy does NOT come to pass (and is possibly followed by an excuse) period

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by mamabeth
I will repeat,your doctrine is wrong.

Please show me where I am wrong so far. Up until now you just tell me I am wrong and do not tell me in what way I am wrong.

BTW, If I am wrong then so was Martin Luther, (founder of the Lutheran Church and the person who not only started the Protestant Reformation, but made the first bibles available to the common man), John Wesley (founder of the Methodist Church), and John Calvin (founder of the Calvinism, and the Presbyterian Church). You can find everything I am typing here in John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Bible:
Wesley's Notes

Appealing to Authority, are we? The word is the final Authority, not Luther.

I'm a proponent of the theology that the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th letters to the Churches in Revelation were prophetic of the church age, ie, right now.

I lean to the structure of the letters themselves to guide me something is different about them, than the first three. I however, am not going to explain it here, as it should be pretty evident for those that read it themselves -- as you are supposed to do if you have an ear.

In that case, if those church letters were in ANY other order, what I say would not be true.

Church in Thyatira = the Roman Catholic Church.
Church in Sardis = the Reformers
Church in Philadelphia = Bible Believing Christians, of the way, who believe the word of God is true fully.
Church in Laodicea = Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, or any other offshoot.

Review them, and see that hints of this with Church history, if Sardis is the reformers. Luther, Calvin, etc got the Salvation by Grace thing down, but they did NOT go far enough and re-evaluate eschatology and theology concerning Israel. Look at Christ's admonition in the Sardis letter IF it was prophetic.

This was not done until later, past the reformation when the Bible WAS in the peoples hands.

Great for him...
So what...
I guess that is supposed to mean that he knows more about Christian Eschatology then the founders of the Original Protestant Religions did?

Luther was wrong about certain things. Shall I quote him?

"For such ruthless wrath of God is sufficient evidence that they [i.e., the Jewish people] assuredly have erred and gone astray. Even a child can comprehend this. For one dare not regard God as so cruel that he would punish his own people so long, so terrible, so unmercifully … Therefore this work of wrath is proof that the Jews, surely rejected by God, are no longer his people, and neither is he any longer their God” (“On the Jews and Their Lies,” Trans. Martin H. Bertram, in Luther’s Works [Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971], p. 265)"

Quite frankly, I view the "too and fro" with knowledge increasing in Daniel -- not jet airplanes, but traveling back and forth in the scriptures we have today. Eschatology knowledge certainly HAS increased, has it not?

Reformation / Replacement eschatology and theology should have been put to bed as wrong the moment that David Ben Gurion declared the nation of Israel reformed on a nice May day in 1948.

I have read many translations, but I mainly use the King James because it is the most widely accepted.

And I read Young's Literal, or the 1599 Geneva Bible which predates the 1611 KJV. Does that make me any more of a scholar?

I prefer the King James simply because the mistranslations (GASP, yes there ARE some) located in it are VERY well documented, and can be cross-referenced by the Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek versions exceedingly easy today to clarify the scriptures themselves.

New versions today? Not so much, as they are not as well documented.

One of the more easy ones to point out is Genesis 10:9, where Nimrod wasn't a good guy as the translation implies, but in very much opposition to God.

However the poster has a point. The English has translation mistakes. The Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic do not.. as they are not translated. If you rely 100% on the English translation, you WILL get some of the meat of the scripture wrong -- or confused. It's an inevitable byproduct of the translation, and very much on the arrogant side to claim the English is right -- and the Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic is wrong.

The English came from those languages, not vice versa.

This is why your best tool today is a concordance. There is no excuse for not using one, particularly with websites that have various translations built into them.

Namely something like www.blueletterbible.org...

Originally posted by 100Grand
If you watch the video you will realize that it came from a DVD. He uses scientific evidence to prove so many things, and if your going to blindly close your eyes just because he decided to put it on youtube then you cant prove it wrong..like i said watch it then prove it wrong.

Sorry I just don’t have time to sit and watch a video right now, as a matter of fact I am going to have to answer this list of questions then I have to call it a night and get some real work done.

Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by Melissa101

 

I am sorry,but your theology is wrong.You are telling people,that Israel
is the abomination of desolation.I am to assume,you believe the church
replaced the jews in salvation,as well.

Oh my goodness, no no no I am not saying that at all. I am saying the making of Isreal as a nation again was the Abomination of desolation. This was signed in 1947 and went into affect in 1948 ( as clearly explained in my first post). The Jews have been returning to Israel every since. If the Abomination of Desolation occured in 70 AD then the tribulation and the second comming of Chrst would have occured around 140 AD, because Christ says this generation will not pass till all things be fullfilled. What is a generation? Remeber the Bible decodes itself and the Bible says one generation is 70 years. Verse 15 states that there will be an A of D then verse 21 says there will be a tribulation then verse 24 there are many false Christ's, false prophets, the Antichrist then in verse 30 Jesus will return and in 34 all of these things will be fulfilled before 1 generation passes. If the antchrist is the A of D then why are there still false Christ's in verse 24 after the A of D? Some say that the Dome of the Rock is the A of D, others the Antichrist, others the re birth of Isreal and some the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. The more I study the more I think it is the re birth of Israel.

This article may help:

www.articlesbase.com...

This one is good too:

www.wscal.edu...
By the way I watched the video and it was good.


[edit spelling]

[edit on 19-1-2010 by Melissa101]

[edit on 19-1-2010 by Melissa101]

Originally posted by 100Grand
HIGH FIVE

Don’t get too excited there, this conversation is far from over yet.

Originally posted by 100Grand
I don't believe this to be true, however it could be. If you look at what the European Union, it seems to be a revived roman empire.

The Roman Empire does not need to be revived, it was simply turned into the Roman Catholic Church. More or the power of the Emperors was handed over to them, over time, and eventually Mother Church ruled Europe through fear rather then a standing army. The power of the Vatican was absolute, and anyone who disagreed with them faced the Inquisitors. They kept representatives at the Court of every kingdom, there to advise the nobles as to the stance of Rome on all topics.

Originally posted by 100Grand
It also seems very interesting that they would divide all the countries into 10 regions, and I believe there will be 3 of the 10 who don't agree with the future ruler of the European Ruler and he "the antichrist" will obliterate them.

3 of the 10 have already been eliminated, simply look at the ones in that list that have “exterminated” written behind their names. It is not surprising, or at least not to me, that many in that list remain kingdoms to this day, and will continue into the European union. It’s rather a natural progression of the remaining kingdoms.

You must also consider that the Vatican, who put forth the theory of Futurism and still hold influence, could ensure that the currant union is broken into 10 states. After all it plays along with one of their schools of prophecy.

Originally posted by 100Grand
Daniel 8:23 says the fourth beast, or kingdom, will devour the whole Earth. Not just the countries above.

I am not sure what Bible you are using, but Daniel 8:23 in my bible is about Alexander the Great:

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

I assume you mean this:

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

But perhaps you can explain this as well then:

Dan 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth

He is here referring to the Medes and Persians, yet they held less of the world then either Greece or Rome did.

The reason is that often in the Bible when it talks about the whole Earth, or the whole World, it is referring to the known world of the time.

Originally posted by 100Grand
Maybe your interpretation is right and this is just a continuation of the prophecy, then in verse 26, it says it will be completely destroyed FOREVER, and then 27 says it will be handed to the saints, an EVERLASTING kingdom, and the rulers will worship and obey him. Obviously this hasn't happened yet.

The 1260 years ended, roughly around the time when Wesley wrote his exploratory notes, as a matter of fact. He was aware that it was ending when he wrote them obviously because he knew that the Second Beast of Revelation was not far off:

But he is not yet come, though he cannot be far off for he is to appear at the end of the forty-two months of the first beast. And he had two horns like a lamb - A mild, innocent appearance. But he spake like a dragon - Venomous, fiery, dreadful. So do those who are zealous for the beast.

The Roman Catholic Church did have its power vastly reduced (the head was wounded) about the same time, when the second beast was arising out of the earth. This happened in 1796 during Napoleons Italian Campaign when the Pope was taken captive and the power of governance was given back to the people of Italy. Almost an exact 1260 years (give or take months as there is some dispute on exactly when certain things happened, but its very close) from 534AD when Codex Justinianus (Corpus juris civilis) of Emperor Justinian I started giving actual legal authority to the pope. The Roman Church has never had that level of power again since that time, and any authority it uses it does so in the background.

Originally posted by 100Grand
Jesus has not come back, according to preterists who say this all happened in 75 AD. John didn't finish revelation until 90 AD.

Ok, well I am not a Preterist, as that is also Catholic Dogma same as Futurism.

Originally posted by Melissa101
Oh my goodness, no no no I am not saying that at all. I am saying the making of Isreal as a nation again was the Abomination of desolation. This was signed in 1947 and went into affect in 1948 ( as clearly explained in my first post). The Jews have been returning to Israel every since. If the Abomination of Desolation occured in 70 AD then the tribulation and the second comming of Chrst would have occured around 140 AD, because Christ says this generation will not pass till all things be fullfilled. What is a generation?

Only Matthew records that the question about “when is the end of the world” was asked Christ, the gospels of Mark and Luke record this…

Mar 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Luk 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

So they were asking when would Isreal be destroyed, not when will the world end. If you recall, the conversation starts out like this:

Luk 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
Luk 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Within a generation that was fulfilled.

Originally posted by Not Authorized
And thus with this statement alone, you lost all credibility with me. First, it's the book of Revelation. Singular. Not Plural. It is one of my biggest pet peeves when people who claim to understand scripture make this mistake.

So credibility in your mind has to do with you being a grammar nazi? You recall this quote?

He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.

It was a series of Revelations, not a single revelation. Its such a common slang that its not even questioned anymore as it sounds more grammatically correct.

Originally posted by Not Authorized
Second, the entire book is defined in Revelation Chapter 1, verse 1.
The Revelation (or Unveiling) of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him (who? Jesus Christ), to shew unto his servants (Who? You) things which must shortly come to pass; (Greek word means, when it starts, it happens quickly) and he sent and signified [it] (ie, rendered it in Signs that are ALL explained by the OT and NT) by his angel unto his servant John

All the stuff about 70Ad I mentioned above comes from Daniel, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, not a single bit of that comes from Revelation.

Originally posted by Not Authorized
If you can't understand the first verse in the book which is plain as day, how can you explain the remaining chapters -- much less state that it is completed?

If you cannot read and comprehend my posts, which are plain as day, then save your sarcasm for elsewhere. Please show me a direct quote of me stating anything about the destruction of 70ad relating to what is written in Revelation besides that the Pontifex Maximus, and Rome appear in both prophecies.

Originally posted by Not Authorized
Third, make sure to underline the word 'until' in your scripture.
Israel has a very real place in the future, and it was promised by God that he WOULD fulfill these.

Not really sure that is true. Israel had its chance and let it slip, they have fulfilled their part in the story (brought about the Messiah) and unless they accept Christ will meet the same fate as any other unbeliever.

Originally posted by defcon5
Dan 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth

Belly and thighs(bronze)-Greece (331-168 BC) this is the third empire.
ok so if these things happened, where is the mark of the beast, the mark shall be placed on the right hand or forehead, and people will not be able to buy or sell without it.

you can research a future RFID chip that will be placed in the right hand or the forehead, people will be able to walk into a store grab there things and leave, and with the rfid chip it will automatically take it out of your account. If you don't get one, or you cause trouble after you have it, they can just turn it off and you will starve.

Originally posted by Not Authorized
Appealing to Authority, are we? The word is the final Authority, not Luther.

I believe that I mention Wesley more then Luther, but all Protestants should be following Historicism, not Preterism or Futurism.

Originally posted by Not Authorized
I'm a proponent of the theology that the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th letters to the Churches in Revelation were prophetic of the church age, ie, right now.

That is one theory on the topic, there are others including that they were written to churches specifically in areas where there were active Caesar Cults. Another theory is that it is the Christian Church in General throughout the ages until the End of the World.

Originally posted by Not Authorized
Luther was wrong about certain things. Shall I quote him?

I am sure that Luther was wrong on many things, he was a man after all. Even though what he wrote may not be politically correct, Religion seldom is. The age of the Jews ended in 70AD, the Glory Cloud of God left the Holy of Holies and sat on the camp of the Romans on Mount Olives. This is recorded in Jewish tradition about the siege, not in the Bible. Their destruction followed shortly after. They fulfilled their part in prophecy, and God fulfilled his covenant with them. I fail to see what other part there is for Israel to play in the End of Times? They are subject to the same rules as Christians, they must accept Forgiveness through acceptance of Christ, their animal sacrifice no longer is acceptable in Gods eyes.

Lets be really honest about why Futurism is such a hot sale with Christians here, mainly because the Media in this country is controlled by Israel. Of all the versions of prophecy that they will put into print or movies, they chose the one that generates support of the Zionist agenda among the Christian majority of this nation. Besides the fact that Futurism lends itself better to books and movies, as it has all this cool science fiction feel to it. Making a movie about something like Historicism would be like sitting through a long boring history class by comparison.

However, Futurism IS Catholic Dogma from the Counter Reformation; THAT IS AN INDESPUTABLE FACT! So why are the Protestant Christian majority in this country following it? Because it is pushed on them by the Zionist media: The Left Behind Series and Movies, Hal Lindsey, The Seventh Sign, The End of Days, heck even the Oman…

Originally posted by Not Authorized
Quite frankly, I view the "too and fro" with knowledge increasing in Daniel -- not jet airplanes, but traveling back and forth in the scriptures we have today. Eschatology knowledge certainly HAS increased, has it not?

Maybe some, but if your following Futurism, then your following a school that has existed since 1590. Not that much more has been changed. There are things that had not happed by then though, and there are things that have not happened yet.

For example the final Beast did not arise, and the beast before it was not wounded until Wesley’s time, 1776-1796.

Originally posted by Not Authorized
Reformation / Replacement eschatology and theology should have been put to bed as wrong the moment that David Ben Gurion declared the nation of Israel reformed on a nice May day in 1948.

Oh yeah…
The ONE prophecy of Futurisms that came true…
A self fulfilling prophecy. It’s like me predicating I am going to the store tomorrow, then going. If you follow Historicism you would see that hundreds of prophecies have already come true.

Originally posted by Not Authorized
And I read Young's Literal, or the 1599 Geneva Bible which predates the 1611 KJV. Does that make me any more of a scholar?

Should it?
I was not the one asking what bible she used, she was questioning which one I used. Let me guess, considering the attack right out of the box, you must be the one in Bible College?

Originally posted by Not Authorized
I prefer the King James simply because the mistranslations (GASP, yes there ARE some) located in it are VERY well documented, and can be cross-referenced by the Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek versions exceedingly easy today to clarify the scriptures themselves.

I use it because it’s what everyone complains that everything must be quoted from all the darn time. Personally, I use E-Sword and I can cross reference and compare any bible I want in that, plus check it against Strong’s Concordance, various notes, maps, etc.
I was raised using the Revised Standard Version.

Originally posted by Not Authorized
However the poster has a point. The English has translation mistakes. The Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic do not.. as they are not translated. If you rely 100% on the English translation, you WILL get some of the meat of the scripture wrong -- or confused. It's an inevitable byproduct of the translation, and very much on the arrogant side to claim the English is right -- and the Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic is wrong.

Which is why I use E-Sword.
So how does her son going to Bible College make her an expert? That is like me saying, "I guess because I am a dog owner that just makes me a Vet via osmosis". On top of that, "Bible College" immediately implies certain aspects to me, as the mainstream religions call it Seminary, not bible college. A lot of those independent churches are huge supporters of Futurism and Zionism for some reason. I believe that is goes back to the Moody Bible Institute which was a mail order class on Futurism that a lot of independent churches pastors originally got their education from.

· Moody Press supplied Sunday School lessons to the Assembly of God churches about 1914, introducing Pentecostals to Futurism and the secret rapture theory.
· The Ryrie Study Bible, by Charles C. Ryrie, a graduate Dallas Theological Seminary, boasts 10,000+ study notes and is listed among the best selling books published by Moody Press.
· Jerry B. Jenkins, co-author of the Left Behind series, is the former vice president for publishing of Moody Bible Institute, and former editor of Moody Magazine. Currently he is Moody Bible Institute's writer-at-large.

Originally posted by 100Grand
ok so if these things happened, where is the mark of the beast, the mark shall be placed on the right hand or forehead, and people will not be able to buy or sell without it.

That is one of the things that has not happened yet. The Fifth beast is only mentioned in Revelation, and it is the one which does that, but not right away. It starts off looking like a lamb after all. It had to come up near the end of the 1260 days (42 months), about the time the Fourth Beast was wounded, so somewhere around 1796. That last beast certainly appears to be the USA, declared independent in 1776, the final world superpower, and organized on the ideals of the Roman Empire. We were also the first nation to “call fire down from the heavens”.

Personally, I don’t think that the mark has to be IN the head or the hand, but rather is an ID containing Biometric data taken from the head and the hand. In other words, finger prints and retina scans. I would consider the RealID act, or a National ID to be a good candidate. You notice how suddenly every job needs your fingerprints, how if you hold professional licenses (like me) you have to now submit fingerprints as well? The fed has been secretly collecting, and pushing for collection of, this Biometric data through any excuse they can find. They are Databasing it, and it will eventually be part of the ID system that will control your ability to do banking, hold a job, etc. To make matters even more suspicious we have forced our allies into doing the same thing under the auspices of the War on Terror.

This is what frightens me about people believing in Futurism. Many will accept such an ID, thinking its safe to do so, because they have not seen the timeline of Futurism play out the way they have been indoctrinated to believe it will. You should know that it says in the Bible that many lukewarm Christians will accept the mark because they fall under a “Great Deception”, I believe that Futurism is just such a deception for this reason:

1)It makes people look for events that may never happen.
2)It was invented by a group that many consider to be one of the last two beasts.

Do you think that the enemy is so dumb that he will allow the events of the “End Times” to be as publicly well known as Futurism is? There are unbelievers here on ATS that know Futurism as well, and maybe better, then most believers. Or would it make more sense for the evil one to come up with another plan that sounded good, and looked like a part or two had come true, while in the meantime doing things like installing the mark as people are looking for the wrong signs of his false prophetic interpretation?

Originally posted by 100Grand
you can research a future RFID chip that will be placed in the right hand or the forehead, people will be able to walk into a store grab there things and leave, and with the rfid chip it will automatically take it out of your account. If you don't get one, or you cause trouble after you have it, they can just turn it off and you will starve.

I doubt that it will ever be implanted, that would be too obvious and Christians would go ballistic and stop it from happening. However I think that it’s a great misdirection while the real mark gets installed.

Alright, another date that I can depend on absolutly nothing happening.

I have actually considered a list of dates for humankinds own bombastic
attempts to glorify himself as a prophet.

It used to be in Isreal, that no one would attempt to prophesi of future
events.
The true test of a prophet kept seers, astrologers, readers and charlatans
from spouting off.
Many were put to the test. Many were stoned to death. A few were not.

It was this way so the people would know, if a prophet was of God or
not. Apparently that was important back then.

Any one could come out of nowhere and claim this or that. No one would
listen because astrology and mysticism were evrywhere. It was so thick
the people were immune.

The only way to have your claims given any creedence at all, you had to
claim to be a prophet of God. God being the only one the people wanted to hear from.
By doing this the people would all come together to listen.
It was all done this way by actual written law.
The law was always honoured by the people, as some kind of an assembly.

The people knew they were either listening to the Word of God thru this
man.
Or they were listening to a fool, that was soon going to be stoned to death.
To be recognised of your claim as a prophet of God, you had to be exactly right in the foretellings.
Wrong about anything that you said in the slightest way and you were
stoned to death.
As I said there were some that past.
Daniel was one.

reply to post by defcon5
This is what frightens me about people believing in Futurism. Many will accept such an ID, thinking its safe to do so, because they have not seen the timeline of Futurism play out the way they have been indoctrinated to believe it will. You should know that it says in the Bible that many lukewarm Christians will accept the mark because they fall under a “Great Deception”, I believe that Futurism is just such a deception for this reason:

1)It makes people look for events that may never happen.
2)It was invented by a group that many consider to be one of the last two beasts.

Do you think that the enemy is so dumb that he will allow the events of the “End Times” to be as publicly well known as Futurism is? There are unbelievers here on ATS that know Futurism as well, and maybe better, then most believers. Or would it make more sense for the evil one to come up with another plan that sounded good, and looked like a part or two had come true, while in the meantime doing things like installing the mark as people are looking for the wrong signs of his false prophetic interpretation?



Agreed after all the Jews were so busy looking for what they thought was the messiah they missed him all together. However studying the signs that are given in the Bible helps us be prepared. Jesus gave us the signs in Matthew so that as Christians we would be prepared and know exactly what to look for. Yes there are many false prophecies that have people looking in the wrong direction that is why it is so important for everyone to study and prove things themselves by studying. Just because Preacher Bob says so does not make it so, we need to look it up, pray for wisdom and knowlege, Lord knows we are going to need it. People should be weary of those that claim to know exactly when things are going to happen. I believe we are given a very good idea of the approximate time in the Bible if you study hard and follow the Biblical timeline, but no one knows the day nor the hour Mat:24-36.

Hmm the biblical scholars should remember this..

"Not jesus, nor the choirs of angels know when the end will come, only God knows to this end"

that's a rough quote - but you get the idea.

To think that there is some hidden numbers system to figure this out is interesting though.