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Talk of Armed Revolution on ATS Inappropriate

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posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 08:38 PM
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Originally posted by Granite
reply to post by moonzoo7
 


Can you site any historical example where appeasement was the right decision?
Your experience isn't elloborated in your OP.
Some of us may even come over to your camp if we can read about the successful cases.


[edit on 2-1-2010 by Granite]


If you want to revolt, I recommend you follow the example of people of East Germany and Czechoslovakia when they opened their borders just over 20 years ago. On thing they read was Romans 13 which was written when the Roman Empire was much more hostile to Christians than East Germany and Czechoslovakia were.




posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 08:41 PM
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I wish I could have stayed in the fray here, but the weather has kept me from my wifi connection. I honestly do applaude all of you for posting here, even if you disagree with me or villify me, because I think that we should be talking about this.
I do not endorse censorship. Should we be able to speak our minds here in the USA, no matter how repugnant the thought or sentiment, without being arrested, tortured or executed? Absolutely. If you didn't notice, the title of the thread reads, "Is Inappropriate". It doesn't say, "Shouldn't Be Permitted". Please keep that in mind.
There is a tendancy that has unfortunately become very popular here and in the mainstream media, of propping up arguments with false dilemas and presumptions. "If you oppose the war, you support the terrorists." "If you say X, then you are a Godless traitor and a puppet." "If you are a Republican, you only care about money and not people." " Not wanting an armed revolution is appeasement." On and on. It is tiresome, weak, and unintelligent.
Our political system has been corrupted by corporate interests, lobbyists and the unending thirst for campaign funds. The military-industrial complex doesn't ultimately care about our fate as humans as long as the money keeps rolling and the bonus checks are on time. These truths are self-evident, if you are willing to see and aknowledge them. Does this scenario need to change? Without question. The entire system is unsustainable. Period.

Is the United States in peril? Yes. "Things" aren't what they used to be, and they never will be again, no matter how much you wish it so, for whatever reason. The dollar is in trouble, and the Chinese government keeps tilting the pinball machine, so far, without consequence. Every dollar spent at Wal-Mart keeps China's machine running, perpetuating this Catch 22, and yet, you simply can't afford to buy shampoo and milk anywhere else. The wolves are constantly outside our door, and more frequently as of late they make their way into the house. What are we to do? Assassinate our leaders and then, with no other recourse, turn on ourselves? Really? Then appoint our "Might Makes Right" brothers and sisters as our new masters? Is this scenario realistic?

Unfortunately, many of these arguments are propped up with the Bible, the Declaration of Independence, and the statements of Thomas Jefferson, ( and others ), to justify violent revolution and sedition. If God AND Thomas Jefferson says it's ok, then it's ok, right?
Murder is murder, no matter who "condones" it. Islamic fundamentalists are using their religious texts as justifications for the crimes they commit. But if the text is Christian, well then, it's acceptable because at least that's OUR God, not theirs. Many, many cultural norms of past ages are no longer acceptable or correct. We have outgrown those norms. We are more intelligent, civilized, and humane. At least we should be...we have a long way to go on that point, but in general, it is obvious.

A member who goes by the name Minigunner stated in this thread that he may not personally like or approve of the policies of his Commander In Chief, but he has sworn an oath to protect and serve his country and it's duly-elected leader(s). Is there anyone here that would ask any soldier, in person, to betray that oath by murdering the President? To commit treason? Really? Try that, and please post the "before and after" pics of your face for our amusement.
When you openly imply that we should endorse a violent political coup, that we should march on Washington and string-up those "Godless traitors", you insult the integrity of every man and woman who has served this country and given their lives to uphold the principles of our Nation of Laws. How dare you?

It is inappropriate to suggest these things here on ATS because the concept violates the spirit of the T&C of this site, and the principle of civil discourse. You are a member of a community here. Act like it.






[edit on 4-1-2010 by moonzoo7]



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 08:55 PM
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As a non-USA national/located ATSer, this is quite interesting, especially in light of the broad range of topics ATS accommodates, with often global reach, and contributions.

We are also witnessing what seems to be the midnight hour of the possible uprising in Iran...

All I would say is that, if ATS decided to strengthen T&Cs to exclude mention of armed uprising(s), it should also be applied to discussions regarding all states, not just the USA?

That is, this debate should probably reflect that this site has global reach, influence and users.

I guess the moderators must (already) have to be careful to draw a line between posts inciting hatred/violence/terrorist activity, and simply reporting what they see/feel?

[edit on 4-1-2010 by curioustype]

[edit on 4-1-2010 by curioustype]



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 09:19 PM
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Revolution is already happening. Think about it.
This country is the most diverse on the planet. It takes time for all of these fragmented groups to even address the same argument or subject.
What I see is this subject dominates all others now. Everywhere I go.
The seed has germinated in the minds of a plurality of the people. Many, like the "roadrunner" Whatukno, (I have experienced this reaction MANY times), have absolutely NO FAITH in mankind to better themselves. It is easy to agree with this mindset, if you believe that the corrupt will eternally prevail.
The revolution is already happening. People are changing habits in profound ways, that is a start. They are talking about methods and consequences, that is good. They are arming themselves with weapons and knowledge, good, good...
They are relearning their history and reclaiming their inheritance.
And doing it with a desire for self-preservation.
It is a start, and the whole world is starting to participate. It would be a shame to stake out a position on the wrong side.



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 09:27 PM
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reply to post by MidnightDStroyer
 



All you seem to talk about is a revolution that's going to throw away the Constitution, not restore it. Have you really been ignoring what's been said all this time?


I haven't been ignoring it, I just don't believe it. I do believe that a right wing revolution in this country would completely destroy the constitution. This is evidenced by endisnighe's posts here, and here, where he at first returns to the constitution but then arbitrarily starts to re write that same constitution to punish what he sees as his enemies. Even going so far as the complete replacement of the 13th Amendment which abolished slavery in this country.


None of those socialist programs are within the lawful authority of the federal government to enact...That would be up to each State (& its own constitution) & the People, as per the 10th Amendment.


It is in fact the duty of the federal government to enact these socialist programs.


We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


Right there in the preamble to the constitution. promote the general WELFARE.

and again...


Article I, Section. 8.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;


Twice the words general Welfare were used in the constitution, twice they were capitalized. What does this mean? Well, it means that yes the federal government does have the right to provide for the general Welfare of it's citizens.

I work, I pay taxes, I pay into both social security and medicare. Are any of you going to tell me that when you decide to take over the government that the money I invested will be taken from me? Because that is what it is, an investment. It is money I have earned by working a job, and invested in this government, with the promise that when I reach the age of retirement that money will be given back to me.

So in essence this revolution can be used for the theft of money that I and millions of other Americans have invested. Why? Because the Right has arbitrarily decided without thinking, that it's a socialist program and that all of a sudden we haven't earned that money.

It's my money after all right? Who are you to say what I can and cannot do with my money? That doesn't sound like freedom.

What of the disabled poor?

What of the mother, who worked as a waitress in a diner, who has a massive stroke, leaving her completely immobile, no insurance. Do you tell her... "Sorry lady, even though you worked to feed and clothe and house your child, and now are completely disabled, you don't contribute to society, and the money that you paid into Medicare and social security isn't going to help you, because it's an evil socialist program, so we are going to take it away from you, don't worry, you are going to die with dignity knowing that you weren't a leach on the system." even though, she paid into that fund up until the time of her accident?

Doesn't sound like providing for the general Welfare.

What gets me about the extreme right in this country is that if you're not what they consider a "contributing member of society." you have no worth and should just die.

And now, the extreme right wants a new civil war to make damn sure that those that they consider to be unworthy do die, and you wonder why I worry about genocide?

I do worry that if the extreme right start a civil war in this country those that they deem "not a contributing member of society" will end up as slaves to those that the extreme right feel worthy. Given endisnighe's replacement of the 13th Amendment in his manifesto linked above. That is exactly what will happen.



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 09:52 PM
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Ahhh... I remember a time not long ago just before the election when Obama love was in vogue and hope and change were in the air. At that time if I were (and I tried) to say anything contrary of this love fest on the ATS, I would be smitten down by hoards of defenders of the faith. It was a time of love, and of peace. The oceans were going to lower, a light was going to shine down from above. It was going to be Paradise once again.

But, that was then and this is now. The reality has come home..... to roost. Now, people of all walks of life are able to express their views on the ATS with freedom not seen for years. This trend shows real change, change that I can really believe in.

Now, while treason is a crime. calling for the abolishment of a government that is oppressive in nature and no longer by and for the people is not. In fact, it is the right of any free people to abolish such government and institute such government as is necessary to ensure the peace and freedom of the populace that employs it.

I would not want anyone to harm our President. He was justly elected by a majority of the people. I don't care for him and he is hurting this great nation every day, but he is the President. Only when he has shown himself to be intentionally harming the nation, and when he has abdicated his oath of office can be impeached and removed.

But other voices are speaking as well, and some of them are as the OP has said and want an armed overthrow. Unfortunately, their voices will gain strength the more this nation has to suffer. Let's hope that the November elections can stop the bleeding before it goes that far. I will choose to fight with my vote as I have always done in the past. To the voices of armed overthrow I say choose the ballot box first. The last thing we need right now is civil war.



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 09:54 PM
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reply to post by whatukno
 

Who is this "extreme right" that you refer to?
I have heard they exist, like ghosts. There are supposed to be a lot of them in Texas. I live in Texas. Am I extreme?
I have this crazy idea about right and left. I think there are very few on the right, just individualists that believe in the constitution, liberty, and the rule of "natural" law. That means I disregard anyone that defines the right differently, such as those that say Nazism is on the "extreme right."
They belong on the left with all of the other collectivists that believe that a few "elites" with the backing of a mob (democracy), can better run things.
It is lonely on the right.

On NPR.org, I have witnessed this "general welfare" argument used to justify the taking of my money by various agents of the federal government to use as they see fit. This is not how the founders of our republic intended "general welfare" to be interpreted. The fact that you use it in such a way tells me you know little about our republic. FYI. No one likes to see others suffer. This is the age old method collectivists, (the ideology you adhere to), have taken to rob the productive people of their wealth. They pretend that they care more about the suffering. I am sure you are a missionary that has paused from a long day of administering food and aid to the poor to post here.

It is never my intention to make enemies. I am a positive person by nature. I believe in human nature.



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 10:32 PM
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I don't think we are going to have to worry about an armed revolution anymore. I think it has begun in the form of a bank boycott.

Check out the front page ofwww.huffingtonpost.com...

This is really starting to spread quickly. The power of Prayer.

Semper Fi,

Eye of Eagle



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 01:15 AM
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reply to post by Stewie
 



Who is this "extreme right" that you refer to?


The extreme right are those that seem to think that anyone left of them politically is automatically a freeloader and has no worth in society. The extreme right believes that the wealthier you are, the more you are worth to society because obviously your net worth determines your worth as a human being.

The extreme right believes that all public schools should be shut down because only those that have the ability to pay for education should have it, the rest aren't worth anything and should not have the opportunity to better themselves.

The extreme right believes that poor people are obviously not good enough, or hard working enough, or smart enough, and therefore deserve nothing, because their net worth equates their worth in society.



I have heard they exist, like ghosts. There are supposed to be a lot of them in Texas. I live in Texas. Am I extreme?


No, that makes me think your a Texan, if you want my view on Texas, well here it is. I believe that we should sell Texas back to Mexico. After all, there isn't anything in Texas that is worth keeping.





On NPR.org, I have witnessed this "general welfare" argument used to justify the taking of my money by various agents of the federal government to use as they see fit. This is not how the founders of our republic intended "general welfare" to be interpreted. The fact that you use it in such a way tells me you know little about our republic. FYI. No one likes to see others suffer. This is the age old method collectivists, (the ideology you adhere to), have taken to rob the productive people of their wealth. They pretend that they care more about the suffering. I am sure you are a missionary that has paused from a long day of administering food and aid to the poor to post here.


Well, no, you're just assuming. But thanks. I work a full time job. As I have posted before, they take taxes, Social Security and Medicare out of my check. Now, as I see it, Social Security and Medicare are in essence insurance policies. It is something I pay for, from money I have earned. (remember, I work a full time job and earn a paycheck.) So, this is an investment between me and the federal government. Monies that I expect to be returned to me starting on my 65th birthday.

But for some odd reason, those on the Right and the Extreme Right, want to steal that money away from me, with the strange notion that somehow I haven't earned it, that for some reason, what amounts to the premiums I have paid in with every paycheck don't mean anything. It really is an odd thing to think. For 20 years now, I have paid these premiums to the government, but for some weird strange reason, the right doesn't feel that I am entitled to reap the rewards of that investment. It's not as if I am taking anything that I have not paid for, or entitled to. I have made an investment, and in 31 years I expect to reap the dividends of that investment.

But to you and the extreme right, for some weird reason don't see that I have paid my premiums, and thus have earned the right to retire off of my investment. The right and the extreme right believe that it's a socialist program and as such my investment somehow is null and void and that it's ok to steal that money away from me cause they believe in some insane logic that I haven't earned it.

This is where the Right and the Extreme Right are wrong, I as a tax paying working citizen of this country having dutifully paid my premiums to this retirement account should have every right to those funds. As I have also dutifully paid into Medicare for the same amount of time, I should also have the right to that health insurance upon my retirement.

But because I am not rich enough, I am not worth enough, and therefore the right and the extreme right believe that I am not entitled to my investment.

Your natural law can kiss my hard working behind if you think you can steal my money because you feel that I have somehow not earned it.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 07:49 AM
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reply to post by whatukno
 


See, this comment here is the PERFECT example of someone that knows his governmental debate tactics down pat!

Do not argue your points, argue the other's points by misrepresenting them.

Go whatukno!

Why is it that you keep putting words into other's mouths?

Is it a fallacious technique? I think it is.

SS, Medicare, and Medicaid are BROKE! It is now a PONZEII scheme.

12 Trillion and counting. tick tock tick tock tick tock!

That is the clock of destruction there big fella. When the printing presses have destroyed the dollar, what than?

Zimbabwe is looking like a better investment everyday.

Keep feeding those banks money. It will solve the problems of the US, I do not know how, but it will.

Dem=Repub as Crook=Banker as Obama=Bush



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 11:50 AM
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I personally believe that any armed revolution will be to restore a constitutional government rather than overthrow a government. We may find out sooner than later as I am hardpressed to understand why the current leftist gang appears to be unconcerned that their agenda is crashing around their ears. If one assumes that they are not stupid it seems that the up coming elections in 2010 is of no concern to an administration that desires to remain and expand its power. What do they know that we don't? Is ACORN going to count the votes or will there be a crisis to postpone the 2010 election? With the right wing bonfire thay continue to build(see trying terrorista in NYC) it may only take a spark.
Scary times.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 12:02 PM
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reply to post by billyjack
 


Don't worry endisnighe is here to make sure that not only will you get to go back to the constitution, he will in fact enhance it with his own ideal of freedom, except of course for the slavery he plans to re establish with his re writing of the 13th amendment.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 01:00 PM
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reply to post by endisnighe
 



SS, Medicare, and Medicaid are BROKE! It is now a PONZEII scheme.


They always were. All money collected is paid to the recipients in accordance to what they are to receive. All leftover is to be placed in an account for that particular program for future allotments.

Sorry Wuky, but what you and I pay in do not have our names on it. It goes to Mr Jones down the street. Perhaps a dime or two to our own fathers, but when our time comes the money that we paid in will be long gone. It is up to our children and grandchildren to pay into the system in order for us to receive anything.

Sadly, the federal government has looted and wrote IOU's to some programs that had excess capitol instead of letting in stay. Al Gore's Lockbox for Social Security was a big laugh for some, but for me it was the only proof that the man was not a complete loon. Now as to if his lockbox idea was cash for carbon credits, then I retract the half-compliment and assign utter loon.

The reality is, despite Generation X having far fewer children than the Baby Boomers that are their parents is insignificant compared to the overall lack of dependable, decent paying jobs. Generation X has been the victims of economic genocide their entire adult lives. First is the struggle for strong careers and then later in life...less benefits to be available (if at all).

Add to it the wealth hemorrhage that a mandatory investment proposed under the Healthcare Bill (among other things) and you can begin to see some handwriting start to appear on the proverbial wall. Either way you slice it, Gen X is fairly screwed. But our own children and grandchildren are the ones that will be completely ed. And they will ask "Why did you not do anything to stop this and fix it?"

But the real patriots might say "Yeah, come on kid. We might even win this fight." But deep down they know that they will be slaughtered. Their optimism is not that they might win, but that their death may be enough to make others see what is going on. To enable them to ask the tough questions and if need be, fight to win. Instead of just proving a point. Sad to say, but I can't help to feel that those poor patriotic SOB's will die in vain. And their idealism is not a Republican one nor even a Right-Wing Conservative one. It is an American ideal, that has become co-opted and politicized to combat the Democrat control.



[edit on 5-1-2010 by Ahabstar]



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 01:14 PM
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"It's illegal to call for the armed over-throw of our government, as well as for advancing the idea of killing the President. We are a Nation of Laws for a reason."

It's not illegal to call for an armed over-throw of our government. I don't understand where that statement came from. Read the second amendment of our constitution. It's our god-given right to be able to overthrow a tyrannical government. If Americans don't think they are being represented or the government is reaching too far into their liberties, they can overthrow it - legally. No if's and's or but's.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 01:27 PM
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reply to post by whatukno
 


Nice fallacy.

Keep proving my points...........

One after another.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 05:28 PM
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reply to post by endisnighe
 


What fallacy is that? It's written in your "manifesto" that you intend to replace the 13th amendment with some supposed original 13th amendment.

www.abovetopsecret.com...


13 The Original 13th Amendment will be researched and if found to be thrown out illegally, it will be reinstated. This is in regards to the holding of Titles of Nobility and the holding of dual citizenship. Anyone with dual citizenship shall not be allowed to hold ANY office in our country.


Isn't it interesting that you want to reinstate a fictitious amendment right over one that freed the slaves?



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 06:23 PM
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reply to post by Ahabstar
 

One other fact about social security that is often not understood. There is an entire industry of parasitic trial lawyers that specialize in getting social security "benefits" for themselves and their clients. This amounts to a tax on a tax.
Usually around 40 to 50 percent of the settlement in fees.
I would like to point out something about patriots. There is a group of oathkeepers formed by Stewart Rhodes and made up of military and law enforcement (ex and current, and supporters) that has a national presence and chapters in (I believe) all 50 (not 57...) states. Our numbers are growing fast. At our rate of growth, with the policy of reach, teach, and inspire, I would not be too quick to call for a "slaughter" in the event of armed rebellion.
Unless, of course, the U.N. suddenly seems to have control of our WMD's.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 06:58 PM
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Originally posted by Jibblin

It's our god-given right to be able to overthrow a tyrannical government.



I suppose part of this issue is the definition of words. Politicos and the media are successfully re-defining what particular words mean. Such as the word 'tyranny'. Are we living under the true definition of tyranny? Do you even know what that word means? Living under Stalin was tyranny. To live in Iran where free speech, music, clothes, and dancing can get you beaten and thrown in jail, that's tyranny. Pick several small countries on the African continent, examine what many of them have endured. They have lived under tyranny.
Health care reform, bank bailouts, pre-emptive wars, no child left behind, Iran-Contra, all of these political policies come and go, they have their moment, and are soon forgotten within one or two election cycles. Ronald Reagan and G.H.W. Bush, ( With the help of the CIA ), bought cocain, had it sold on American streets, and used the cash to illegally fund "freedom fighters" in El Salvador in direct defiance of Congress. Nancy Reagan was telling everyone to "Just say no" while the CIA and the top elitie were fueling an unprecidented level of addiction and gang violence in cities across America.
The Reagan administration traded weapons and technology to Iran in order to secure the release of hostages. ( I personally know someone that went on the mission, disguised, into Iran to deliver the equipment, set it up, and teach the operating of said equipment. The equipment was mobile electric generators, among other things ). That wasn't treason, that was business as usual, and now Ronald Reagan is the Patron Saint of Republicans and conservatives everywhere. "True" conservatives, such as William F. Buckley, were appalled and felt betrayed by Reagan because he wasn't conservative enough. Perhaps these events are a bit beyond your years or experience.
Believe it or not, I believe in some concepts that are normally labeled as Libertarian or conservative, but I selectively use my judgement. Some truths are obvious and simply fall into the "common sense" category.
The posts here have been constructive and educational in my opinion, and I again say that I feel this topic needs some attention. Oh, yeah, what topic was that??

I told myself before the original post that I wasn't going to spend a lot of time defending my statement, because I know it will ultimately be an unending, tail-chasing waste of time. However, I have felt compelled to respond to some of your assertions, and I have done so selectively.

So, let's collectively kick the dead horse again...Is it appropriate to explicitly or implicitly advocate for violent, organized revolution or the political assassination of our duly-elected leaders here on ATS? ( In light of the T&C and the stated purpose of this site? ) No. Should you be able able to say whatever you please in your home, in creative writing, in the corner bar? Absolutely. It's context folks, not absolutely black or white, everything or nothing. This last paragraph is my attempt to re-focus the post back towards the original statement and context.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 07:04 PM
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Originally posted by Kaploink
I have to agree with the OP on this. The topics that were encouraging the creation of an army to overthrow the government by force are getting very close to that fine line of what is and isn't legal.

As you can see, attempting to organize such groups is considered illegal.



18 U.S.C. § 2385 : US Code - Section 2385: Advocating overthrow of Government

Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or

Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or

Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof

Jibblin: Is this legal enough for you, or do you have a seperate "Natural Law" set of standards that simply transcend binding legislation?





[edit on 5-1-2010 by moonzoo7]



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 07:24 PM
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Based on a personal experience someone I know had, it is unwise now a days to talk of "harming" "a certain person" and expect it to be OK.

The internet is not as anonymous as some people think.

I won't elaborate on the story now unless I am asked.

Just my opinion.



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