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Of Racists and Cultural-Marxists

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posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 02:10 PM
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Originally posted by Someone336
I'm not sure the exact number, but if it is 1%, then it is 1% too much, no?


No. A definite and passionate NO.

Reason 1: Enforcing that 100% perfect world can only happen in a totalitarian system.

Reason 2: The majority should not be punished for the acts of a few bad apples.



I would say that it is more than that, given the amount of goods manufactured in China.


Im not going to defend sweatshops here.



As I said above, this is because these people have no choice.


Marxism goes on and on about us having no choice, no responsibility, no ability, about forever being poor, penniless victims in a vast and oppressive machinery.

This is, with a few rare exceptions, a complete fallacy. Every employee and every worker Ive ever gotten to know (and I know many) had a choice.

But even if we hypothetically suppose that they "dont have a choice" - thats not the corporations fault. The corporation is doing a favour by providing employment.



These people have to choose between starving to death or working in such awful conditions.


Are you talking about third world countries here? Because this sure doesnt apply to western civilization.



I know enough about Marxism to know that it takes the 1% and overblows it as if thats whats going on everywhere.




had proposed an idea to rid the working class of the oppressive hierarchy and wage slavery


a) Hierarchy is not oppresive. Thats marxist-talk. If, for example, a dentist, through study and expertise is above a dental-assistant, then that authority is legitimate.

b) There is no such thing as wage-slavery. I make a job offer, a worker either takes it or leaves it. As an employer it is in my interest to give him enough money to live comfortably, for in his feeling of safety he will be a better employee. Giving him not enough money only backfires on me. There is no need for a dictatorial nanny-state trying to force me to change the wages I pay.



that dominates what is now referred to as capitalism: the worker co-operative. I've noticed that those on the 'Conservative' side of things refuse to even acknowledge the existence of the idea of the worker co-operative, much less the fact that it actually works.


Im fine with whatever works to provide prosperity and well-being for as many as possible. The idea of worker-cooperative must be shown to work before it is taken seriously by conservatives.



the sub-sub-sub-standard living conditions that those who worked in the copper mines were forced to endure - but it's not like they could just throw down their shovels and pick axes and walk away. These men had families to support, mouths to feed. What was needed was a force to change things. They read Marx, they read Bakunin, and the by-product was the IWW, the International Workers of the World. While Haywood would fail, the labour movement would succeed in time.


Alright, alright, there are situations in which Marx is needed. Im thinking in Dubai for example, where some workers are forced to work for free and threatened with food removal if they dont.

But we have gone beyond that in society. We have come to a place where a man, holding open a door for a woman, is seen as a "chauvinist pig oppressor" and where a legitimate authority, such as a dentist, is ordered by a court of law not to be called "doctor" anymore because it could "offend" his assistants who might feel "of a lower class".

______________________________________

Good conversation btw.




posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 07:54 PM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


Allow me to take this to a personal level..

I come from a culture rich in music and food and speech. That particular culture is currently protected because of some social-economic variables that have fallen in place in the past few decades. Yet not 100% by any means.

While I have not lived there for a number of years, I have had the unique ability to sit back and watch from a distance and I can see my culture getting watered down each and every passing year.

Going back to your original statement, which I agree with completely...


We are different and thats good


It is a simple fact that given enough mixing, all things become diluted. Eventually to the point that the original is no longer recognizable...

Simple answer...

Is this not true?

I freely admit that I do not have any answers to all of my questions as I am an advocate of "live and let live" and I think it is ridiculous that so many people get so upset over such things as skin color, birth location, sexual preference and religious choice. I can not however be comfortable watching my culture disintegrate in my lifetime.

I think about all of the museum exhibits I have attended that exemplify cultures long dead and I wonder how long before I am up there.

Yet in my confusion, I am happy to see the world moving on, even in the small steps we have accomplished, I think our tolerance has moved leaps and bounds in my lifetime and for that I can only feel happiness...

Semper



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 06:16 AM
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reply to post by semperfortis
 


The Native American Culture is not surviving into the 21st Century, is it? Thats sad.

I was struck by this the most while talking to an Obese Hawaiian who did not know any native Hawaiian foods but did know where all the Fast-Food joints are.

Or when seeing an Hindu woman trying to mimic western clothing instead of the infititely more beautiful clothing normally worn in India.

Or when seeing Red-China like gray high--rise buildings being built in Lhasa (Tibet).

Or every airport shopping area in the world looking exactly the same. Get a Starbucks in London, Dubai, Capetown, Rio, Moscow, Taiwan, Rome. That wouldnt bother me if there were anything there indicating a unique culture.

The utopia desired by some is to have everyone walking around in the same space-jumpsuits, eating the same government-produced food-substitute from a tube and having no individual identity whatsoever.

Those who keep calling for such an Utopia dont see its disadvantages until its too late.

(A good example: The people of North Korea have no more unique culture and identity. Its been wiped out by the "lets all get along and be the same" Ideology.)





[edit on 3-1-2010 by Skyfloating]



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 06:16 AM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


Umm I said that you made an idealogical argument not a racist but hey when your initial premise is flawed so will be your further assumptions . I am sorry if I misjudged your political beliefs. So in order to keep the flow of productive discussion lets agree to disagree on the points so raised so far . Besides I have a question for you that I hope will fit in with your views .

Do you think that say Ian Smith was a racist or did he just take a realistic view concerning the differences between races ?

BTW IMO you did yourself a disservice by not starting this thread in the Psychology, Philosophy and Metaphysics forum .



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 06:25 AM
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the thing about racism and any other ideology you speak of is once you know it in your mind and someone else knows it outside of your mind you can constantly change it in your mind and it still be the same for the person experiencing it physically. once you say your not a racist but you know racism in your mind any action i take that i find in my mind racist is not so because it is a physical act and not the thought in your mind of what racism is.

OP you seem to know racism in the mind; i hope that goes well for you.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 06:25 AM
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Originally posted by xpert11
Do you think that say Ian Smith was a racist or did he just take a realistic view concerning the differences between races ?


I would say that the Ian Smith and Robert Mugabe fit the description of the two sides described in the OP, so yes, he's certainly a racist.


[edit on 3-1-2010 by Skyfloating]



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 07:40 AM
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Originally posted by Ausar
OP you seem to know racism in the mind; i hope that goes well for you.


If you mean I havent had to deal with real racism in my life (?), then you`re probably right. Well, not much at least.

As a teen I was living in in a European city in a part of town with a lot of people from Arabic countries. They would hassle me for being American. I got beaten up for it a few times. Its strange because not many know that there is such a thing as racism against white Americans.

But Ive never experienced the amount of racism latinos, chinese, blacks and jews have experienced.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 09:30 AM
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Extremes?

Examples....

"Racism is man's gravest threat to man - the maximum of hatred for a minimum of reason." --Abraham J. Heschel

"If I can send the flower of the German nation into the hell of war without the smallest pity for the shedding of precious German blood, then surely I have the right to remove millions of an inferior race that breeds like vermin" -- Adolf Hitler

Everyone is a little racist, everyone has the capacity to "hate" though few will either accept these facts, or admit it.

Those are the vast majority.... It is those who reside on the extremes who should be both reviled and feared. When race becomes obsession, when hate dominates the void of ignorance within a human soul, you have become an extremist capable of great evil and injustice.

We humans are all different in many ways and, yet we are the same.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 05:11 PM
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People are failing to understand the difference between the OP being racist and simply making a deeply flawed case of argument . All the while the OP is making flawed assumptions he/she has not claimed that one race is superior to another . The notion that Ian Smith was racist as is Robert Mugabe is the correct one . If I was to make the argument on ATS that some Cultures lean towards methods of better governance I would get called a racist also hence I would not start such a topic here .



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 05:43 PM
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reply to post by xpert11
 


The statement of the OP is that the "we are different" and the "we are equal" crowd both have it wrong.

That crowd also thinks that my assumptions are flawed, naturally.

[edit on 3-1-2010 by Skyfloating]



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 06:07 PM
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I think there may be some confusion in the word "equal". I mean, no two people are exactly the same/equal. Each one is an individual. But we are all equal in that none are better than the other based on their race.

Difference is good in race and culture, just as it is good in gender or from one person to the next. But all people should have equal rights.



posted on Jan, 3 2010 @ 06:22 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
But we are all equal in that none are better than the other.


I really do mean what I said in the OP, I really do oppose the view of one not being better than another.

I know why Hindus are better cooks and Russians are better at sex than Americans. But its forbidden to say so because I could "offend" someone.



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 04:04 AM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


In other words, if I assume other cultures are, in some respects, better than me, I have the humility to learn from them - and learn I do.



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 08:22 AM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
I really do mean what I said in the OP, I really do oppose the view of one not being better than another.

I know why Hindus are better cooks and Russians are better at sex than Americans. But its forbidden to say so because I could "offend" someone.


Again, I believe words are getting in the way.


Generalities exist because there IS some truth to them. Yes, generally speaking one race, culture or nationality may be better than another at a specific task or talent. But that doesn't make them better people, deserving of better treatment or fully superior to the others.

As far as being forbidden to say so, that's up to you. I will freely state that the Chinese are better at educating their young children than Americans are, generally speaking. I am not forbidden to say that and if someone gets offended, they will deal with it, I'm sure. That's where my original question comes in. If I say that and someone gets offended, is racism at play? I'd say no in this instance, because I'm not saying that the Chinese are better people, they just generally do a specific task better than other cultures.


Originally posted by Skyfloating
In other words, if I assume other cultures are, in some respects, better than me, I have the humility to learn from them - and learn I do.


Absolutely! Since living in the Southwest where many Mexicans also live, I have learned SO much about cooking Mexican food and living in the now... because I was open to the idea of learning from them. They are not better than me and I am not better than them, but I do hope at least some have learned a bit about being a strong, equal partner in a relationship and the best way to treat and train a dog from me.



[edit on 4-1-2010 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating

The statement of the OP is that the "we are different" and the "we are equal" crowd both have it wrong.


We're one but we're not the same...



Turn up the sound and listen to these words carefully.




posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 05:05 PM
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reply to post by Walkswithfish
 


Always loved that song - didnt know there's a version with Mary J Blidge - love her too.

I believe in equality and oneness. Just not the way prescribed by certain doctrines.



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 05:14 PM
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Originally posted by ANOK
Wow what a bunch of twisted confusion...

I just fail to understand your definition of left and right. I fail to understand your mind set, it's so full of media hype garbage that doesn't make sense because it's not coming from anything real, just media misused and abused labels.
[edit on 1/2/2010 by ANOK]




Welcome to one of Skyfloating's threads.
Where you wont get a straight answer, everything you say will be taken out of context and twisted around to make you out to be the one who doesn't make sense.
And generally all kinds of generalisations and stereotypes will be the main theme throughout the thread.

Enjoy



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 05:15 PM
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reply to post by Walkswithfish
 


Thank you! I'm going to have chills the rest of the day from that.

We're one but we're not the same. What a simple truth...



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 05:27 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Generalities exist because there IS some truth to them. Yes, generally speaking one race, culture or nationality may be better than another at a specific task or talent. But that doesn't make them better people, deserving of better treatment or fully superior to the others.


You`ll never hear an implication like that from me. Being a positive person, putting others down based on race never comes to mind.

However, when someone says "You should give back that Olympic Gold Medal you know - you should not get better treatment than anyone else - we are all equal - the others who came in after you are offended that you think you`re someone better" I protest. Because that desire for equality does not come from Love but from Envy.

Anyway - I "get" that we mean the same thing with different words


[edit on 4-1-2010 by Skyfloating]



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 05:49 PM
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Originally posted by blupblup
Welcome to one of Skyfloating's threads.
Where you wont get a straight answer, everything you say will be taken out of context and twisted around to make you out to be the one who doesn't make sense.
And generally all kinds of generalisations and stereotypes will be the main theme throughout the thread.


Should I have inconvenienced you in any way in past encounters to make you rather cross at me, please accept my most sincere apologies. I shall henceforth endeavor to post in accordance with that which is deemed acceptable and understandable by you, for if I disregard one person, I disregard humanity.




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