The Gap Creationist Conspiracy

"A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text."

The Gap Theory or Gap Creationist theory is fairly new idea attributed to the Dutch theologian Simon Espicopius (1583-1643) and popularized by the Scottish mathematician Thomas Chalmers (1780-1847).

The theory is that somehow the earth was created, destroyed, and recreated in the 1st and 2nd verses of the book of Genesis.

The theory simply did not exist in prior ages and is completely different than the idea of manifold creations, which involves the annihilation of entire universes and the creation of planets other than Earth.

The keystone of the theory revolves around John Milton's Paradise Lost more than it does anything biblical. This keystone involves twisting Isaiah 14, Revelations 12 and Genesis 3 out of context and flat out ignoring the rest of scripture around it.

Isaiah 14, a prophecy about the Hebrews singing of the fall and death of the King of Babylon, is taken completely out of context and is said to concern Satan. Even worse Satan in this twist is given the non Biblical name of Lucifer, which is the name of a Roman minor god. Even though the chapter clearly shows the death of the King of Babylon and all of his heirs, it is fanatically and illogically defended by those who have twisted it. Its defended to such a point that it almost seems like other forces are at work in the insanity.

Revelations 12, occurs in the middle of the "end times" following the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet. This War in Heaven clearly is during the last days and not during creation.

Last but surely not least is Genesis 3, where the Nachash (Serpent) is called the most cunning of the creatures of the ground or soil. Nowhere is it called an angel or spirit. It is clearly one of the living creatures that inhabit Eden. Interestingly, though cursed, it and its seed or offspring are not expelled from Eden like Adam and Eve. That is a mystery but it also flies in the face of the Gap theory. Some people try to say the Nachash isn't a serpent, yet the word is used numerous times in the Bible to mean a serpent. Examples include Aaron's rod turning into a serpent and the bronze serpent used by Moses.

By twisting and perverting scripture, a fictional story is created where Satan's War in Heaven is moved from the End times to the Creation. This war is used to explain that the earth was destroyed. Without this War, the theory falls apart.

Biblically when angels cross G-d, they are harshly bound and punished. They are not rewarded with being "Prince of the Earth", allowed to freely walk the Earth or especially enter the Heavenly Court of G-d. In Jude 1:6, 2 Peter 2:4 angels who did not keep their dominions were bound in chains and darkness until Judgement Day. Compare to the angels bound at the Euphrates (Revelations 9:14) and to Azazel bound in the desert.

The Satan of the book of Job on the other hand enjoys free travel between the Heavens and Earth. Even in the Gospels, Satan freely roams the Earth and is even called Prince of the Earth and the Powers of the Aer. (Aer in Greek being the lesser heaven beneath the Aether) It is not until the end times shown in the Book of Revelations that Satan is finally bound.

The Gap theory also depends on the introduction of death, destruction and sin into the world before Adam, which totally contradicts scripture.

1 Corinthians 15: 21-22

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being.
For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life,

Humanity is soley responsible for the death brought into the world. The Gap theory tries to shed humanity of this responsibility. This is what I believe the ultimate goal is from these kind of conspiracies. In essence it appears to create a scapegoat for humanity's responsibilities and at the same time diminish the power of G-d by giving G-d a near equal opponent. Biblically, G-d is unmatched by anyone or anything. In the Book of Job, The Satan isn't in a cosmic war with G-d, but with humanity. Humanity struggles against powers and principalities. It is only when the conflict turns from Earth to the Heavens in the end times that G-d binds Satan.

The most important lesson of this is the quote I began with:

"A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text."

These texts without contexts, like the Gap theory, are used for agendas, misdirection, and propaganda. To what ends exactly I don't know, but anything that misdirects or disinforms someone in regards to the scripture should be anaylzed and examined for potential conspiracy.

In other words: "Deny Ignorance!"

"A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text."

Do you have a citation for this quote? Otherwise you are violating this maxim before you even get started.

Also, you fail to place the books in question, and even the bible in their proper historical or theological context. They were written by different groups of people at different times and by multiple authors, later revised and collected to make a somewhat cohesive work. The work was imperfect, as their is plenty of contradiction and omission when it comes to scripture's position on many doctrinal areas. Within this context, it is not scholarship or "proof" when one makes any claims based on textual evidence such as this. It's just belief, consistent or not with the text.

You make an important point though: all the stuff our Christian friends believe about biblical end-times and the "rapture" comes not from the scripture, but from clever manipulation and extrapolation of that scripture. Folks aught to read that big book of theirs before they buy into all this "end of the world" panic and condemnation of their neighbors. Think you're going to blink out of existence and go straight to heaven while all of us sinners suffer? Read again.

[edit on 1-1-2010 by John_Brown]

reply to post by John_Brown


"A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text."
Donald Arthur Carson, Research Professor of the New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.

Giving something a citation doesn't put it in context.
An argument could be made in the case of plagiarism, but I did mark it as quotation.

Originally posted by John_Brown
You make an important point though: all the stuff our Christian friends believe about biblical end-times and the "rapture" comes not from the scripture, but from clever manipulation and extrapolation of that scripture. Folks aught to read that big book of theirs before they buy into all this "end of the world" panic and condemnation of their neighbors. Think you're going to blink out of existence and go straight to heaven while all of us sinners suffer? Read again.

[edit on 1-1-2010 by John_Brown]

You and I both know its not just basic belief. These kinds of proof texts are used for agendas. There have been people throughout history pushing agendas in the Church, especially in regards to non Biblical doctrines that expand personal authority and influence.

When someone begins spewing this mess and using proof texts they suddenly emerge as an authority figure on the subject. They are selling books, being invited to speak at churches, interviewed on television, and anyone who points out their fallacies is attacked. They are not open to debate and followers of the material act more like a cult than a normal church.



[edit on 1/1/10 by MikeboydUS]

You seem like a fairly well versed individual MikeboydUS, (Can I call you Mike) and you are certainly clear in the point you wish to make.

And Mike, your views are of course yours to believe and share, and I have respect for those beliefs, since in the end, the only thing that truly matters is your relationship with GOD and his Son.

Our differences in theory, mean really nothing in the grand scheme of things, and I can assure you, in the days that are to come, ALL will be taught by the LORD himself.

So these discussions (which I hope this will remain), while truthfully unimportant in the big picture, may just inspire someone who actually has some concerns or ideas about these matters, to infact pickup the letter GOD wrote for them (Through devine inspiration with the scribes) and learn for themselves, what GOD has for them to learn.

It's all good!

So let's have at it, my friend.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
The Gap Theory or Gap Creationist theory is fairly new idea attributed to the Dutch theologian Simon Espicopius (1583-1643) and popularized by the Scottish mathematician Thomas Chalmers (1780-1847).

Gap Creationism

Gap creationists believe that science has proven beyond reasonable doubt that the Earth is far older than can be accounted for by......

Hardly a vilifiable reason for dismissing the premise. But let's review some materials found within.

Gap creationism was popularized by Thomas Chalmers, a divinity professor at the University of Edinburgh, founder of the Free Church of Scotland, and author of one of the Bridgewater Treatises, who attributed it to 17th century Dutch Arminian theologian Simon Episcopius.

The keystone of the theory revolves around John Milton's Paradise Lost more than it does anything biblical. This keystone involves twisting Isaiah 14, Revelations 12 and Genesis 3 out of context and flat out ignoring the rest of scripture around it.

Actually, what you have offered is accurate, in one scope. These three scriptures are refered to in reference to 1 specific view on the matter of the Gap Theory. It is not all this premise has to build upon.

Biblical support
Because there is no specific information given in Genesis concerning the proposed gap of time, other scriptures are used to support and explain what may have occurred during this period and to explain the specific linguistic reasoning behind this interpretation of the Hebrew text. A short list of examples is given below:

The word "was" in Genesis 1:2 is more accurately translated "became". Such a word choice makes the gap interpretation quite easier to see in modern English.[9][11][13]

God is perfect and everything he does is perfect, so a newly created earth from the hand of God shouldn't have been without form and void and shrouded in darkness. Deuteronomy 32:4, Isaiah 45:18 1 John 1:5[10][11][13]

The Holy Spirit was "renewing" the face of the earth as he hovered over the face of the waters. Psalms 104:30[11][14][13]

Angels already existed in a state of grace when God "laid the foundations of the Earth", so there had been at least one creative act of God before the six days of Genesis. Job 38:4-7[11][14]

Satan had fallen from grace "in the beginning" which, since the serpent tempted Adam and Eve, had to have occurred before the Fall of man. Isaiah 14:12-15, Ezekiel 28:11-19, John 8:44[11][14][10]

Space, time, water, and the rock which constitutes the main body of the earth, existed before the period of six days began in Genesis 1:3.[12]

I "BOLD"ed the Isaiah 14, since it was noted, but the balance of the Scriptures you offered did not appear to be part of the premise behind Gap Creationism.

So in an effort of fairness, let's address what Gap Creationist's are basing this premise upon.

The word "WAS" vs "BECAME" seems pretty self explainitory. Let's move on.

GOD is not the GOD of Void or Formlessness, so to speak

Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways
are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and
right is he.

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

"Taken out of context"? Well I suggest those who wish, to verify the Context for themselves.

Next we see the Holy Spirit renewing.

Psalms 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Truly a beautiful Psalms about the Creation. Out of context? Doesn't seem to be. But thats up to the reader of course.

Next we see the Pre-existance of Angels.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The morning stars are the angels, incase this was not clear. It is also some of the problems surrounding lucifer and it's application, but thats another post topic. I digress....

Next we see the Fall.

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Now this maybe another discussion for a later time, but exactly when is Isaiah 14:15 going to occur. I am still waiting, and I can assure you Mike, you are also still awaiting this. This is prophecy my friend. This verse occurs only after the Millenium Kingdom. The King of Babylon is dead and buried already. Just asking my friend.

But I now have to quit, since SPACE is running out. See you soon.

Ciao

Shane

P.S. We'll pickup from here

So we pickup where we left off

Ezekiel 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

As with Isaiah, I am awaiting this same day here with Ezekiel 28:18-19. In this case, the King of Tyre is already dead and buried. Judgement Day follows the Millenium Kingdom, as I read it anyways, but this could be another topic I suppose.

And finally

John 8:44. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

But I am also wishing to indicate, as Mike has previously noted, there is contention about who is being spoken to and/or about in the first two of these three portions of scripture. It's upto you and your discernment to affix and apply the proper entity to these. Mike and myself can only offer our points of view.

And in closing on the basis of this theory, the matter of the Earth, Water and such being here, prior to day one.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Which of course is the 1st day of Creation. (See Genesis 1:5)

Revelations 12, occurs in the middle of the "end times" following the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet. This War in Heaven clearly is during the last days and not during creation.

Yes, part of this scripture covers End Times matters, but leads upto this with a mini recount of that old Serpent, The Devil and Satan, who now appears as a great dragon, in this coming battle.

Last but surely not least is Genesis 3, where the Nachash (Serpent) is called the most cunning of the creatures of the ground or soil. Nowhere is it called an angel or spirit. It is clearly one of the living creatures that inhabit Eden.

Unless of course Revelations 12 means anything.

As for Nachash

5172 nachash naw-khash' a primitive root; properly, to hiss, i.e. whisper a (magic) spell; generally, to prognosticate:--X certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X indeed, diligently observe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5173 nachash nakh'-ash from 5172; an incantation or augury:--enchantment.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5175 nachash naw-khawsh' from 5172; a snake (from its hiss):--serpent.

First, it is clear about onething here. Three words, all with similar meanings, and all the same spelling, but pronounced differently, and you can difinitively indicate this is simply a snake as identified by its hiss, and not a hissing, whispering, enchanter which is cursed by none less than GOD.

And what about this curse?

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and
between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and
thou shalt bruise his heel.

The Serpents seed did get expelled from the Garden Mike. The Serpents seed was Cain. (And thats definativly another post)

Is this really a simple snake?

As for Arron and Moses, yes, these are serpents being refered to.

I do understand what it is you are noting, and again, I will let the readers make the choice they need to make for themselves. As I noted previously, you have your views and you are entitled to express these as you wish, as am I.

Well, I will revisit this matter, a little later and followup on the balance of your offering.

It is an excellent topic, and I hope, as I noted earlier, the posters maintain a discussion, apposed to the chaos some wish to make of all topics such as this.

Ciao

Shane

P.S. Some Links for reference / study

KJV 1611 Bible
Gap Creationism
Strong's
The Other Post

[edit on 1-1-2010 by Shane]

reply to post by Shane


Thank you for taking the time to discuss this.

I think ultimately both of us may have the same goals, which is to get people to actually read their Bible.

The reason I mention Paradise Lost is that many Gap theorists proclaim the importance of a primoridal "War in Heaven" by the Satan of the Book of Job. This is exactly what Milton's Paradise Lost is about, but Biblical support for such a primordial conflict can't be found.

Isaiah 14 for instance is used to try to support this hypothesis, but Isaiah 14:1-4

For the L-RD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the L-RD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

And it shall come to pass in the day that the L-RD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased

This clearly places Isaiah 14 in the area of prophecy. Personally the prophecy appears to be "Apocalyptic" in nature. I don't think Helel Ben Shachar is an ancient king of Babylon but a future king.

Isaiah 14:21-23

Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

For I will rise up against them, saith the L-RD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the L-RD.

I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the L-RD of hosts

Here his heirs are slaughtered and then Babylon is destroyed. Compare this to the destruction of Babylon in Revelations 18

After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor.

With a mighty voice he shouted: "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!
She has become a home for demons and a haunt for every evil spirit,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.

Also compare the King of Babylon, Helel ben-Shachar, to the abominable King of Daniel 11: 36-37

And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the G-d of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Neither shall he regard the G-d of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Ezekiel 28 also was written as prophecy against the King of Tyre. The difference with Ezekiel is that it mentions the King of Tyre being a guardian cherub in Eden. The Cherubim guardians are placed in Eden in Genesis 3. If this is literal this is referencing not the serpent, a creature of the soil, but one of the Cherubim that prevented the humans from getting back in.

Now how would one of the Cherubim that were guardians of Eden become King of Tyre? First lets look at the Hebrew here. The King isn't a king, but refered to in the Hebrew as a leader or ruler. More often than not it is then translated into Prince.

In Daniel 10 we find the angel Gabriel sent to Daniel. He says something very interesting. Daniel 10:12-14

Then he continued, "Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your G-d, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them.

But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.

Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come."

Gabriel was not held by a human prince of Persia and Michael isn't a human prince either.

In Daniel 10:20-21 Gabriel elaborates further.

So he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come;

but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.

Gabriel here is telling Daniel that only Michael, prince of Israel, supports Gabriel in the conflict against these other princes. Compare this to Ephesians 6:12

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Also look at the Dead Sea Scrolls version of Deuteronomy 32:8-9

When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of G-d. (Instead of sons of Israel)

For the L-RD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.

This would help explain how the 70 nations after the Great Flood were appointed princes like the princes of Persia, Greece, Tyre, Magog, etc. It would also help explain how one of the cherubim, who was one of the guardians of Eden, became the prince of Tyre.

Now look at Job 2:1

Again there was a day when the sons of G-d came to present themselves before the L-RD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the L-RD.

Not only does this show that Satan had not fallen, it also shows him in the company of the sons of G-d. We could easily infer that these same sons of G-d are the same principalities of Ephesians and princes from Daniel. In Jewish lore, Satan is often said to be the Prince of Rome or the most powerful of the princes of the earth. Compare to John 12:31

Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

Also compare to Ephesians 2:2

in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

Note "power of the air" would be better translated as "authorities of the aer" Aer in this sense would mean the lesser heaven beneath the aether.

Taken altogether this really throws cold water on the idea of a primordial war in heaven.

Now for Revelations 12, where does the idea of mini reaccount come from? The fall of "The Dragon" from the heavens precedes the rising of the Beast of the Sea.

Like the Beast of the Sea or the Scarlett Beast, the Dragon has many heads, many horns and many crowns.

And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

These heads, horns, and crowns must symbolize rulers just like the head, horns, and crowns of the Beast. One could easily infer that these heads and horns are the principalities of Ephesians and the princes of Daniel.

By ignoring all of this we end up things like Dante's Inferno and Milton's Paradise Lost. Its very clear that Satan has not been cast out, that he is ruler of the authorities of the Aer. They are not operating out Tartaros (Abyss) or Gehenna. These authorities are ἐπουράνιος or epouranios, meaning in the heavens. Which also explains the use of Aer.

What gap theory is asking people to do is doubt scripture. Basically this doesn't mean this. Then it asks the Church to incorporate primordial theomachy and chaoskampf, ideas that are alien to Judaism. These are the ideas of other religions. For gap theory to work, people need the theomachy and chaoskampf.

Why do people feel the need for Gap Theory? The early proponents of it felt they needed to answer modern geology. In other words their foundation of faith was shaken by scientific theory and they needed something to reaffirm their beliefs.

There is no need for the Gap theory. It has people doubting scripture, misunderstanding Hebrew, and proof texting. It has only served to create confusion.

There are many mysteries in the Bible and many of them will remain mysteries. Many we will never be able to fully understand or explain. As ancient man created myths to explain the natural world, modern man has created myths to explain the Bible.

Shalom



[edit on 1/1/10 by MikeboydUS]

Giving something a citation doesn't put it in context.

It absolutely does. I had not an inkling as to the author's intent or identity, what era it came from, what language it may have been translated from, etc., and now that I know the author is a biblical scholar at a religious institution I know much more about the stakes of this author's claim. I can now investigate this institution, review this author's work past and present, and put his statement into context: it is a statement about the quality and nature of popular biblical scholarship, and the Christian community's sophistication when it comes to evaluating claims by these scholars.

Context is the very reason for citation; the reader is invited to verify the textual reference as presented in-situ in the referenced work, so that claims cannot be made about it being out of context or misinterpreted.

I was intrigued by your opening quotation, which is why I chose to address it first. I believe it applies equally to other self proclaimed scholars and researchers in secular fields, though it may be particularly problematic in biblical scholarship. These "proof" texts do frequently support an extreme agenda, but I do not know that there is anything more to it than belief when it comes to biblical "scholarship". It is a supremely ironic quote, now that I know the context. Thanks for responding, and I meant no disrespect or to side track your thread. I'm stepping out of the discussion at this point. Happy New Year!

reply to post by John_Brown


I should apologize in regards to that quote. I was under the assumption that it was more well known than it appears to be.

You might be interested one of Dr. Carson's books Exegetical Fallacies. He has written over 50 books and received his Ph.D at the University of Cambridge and I had assumed his quote was more widely known.

Here's a link to his profile page from the school faculty: wvvw.tiu.edu...

[edit on 2/1/10 by MikeboydUS]

By twisting and perverting scripture, a fictional story is created where Satan's War in Heaven is moved from the End times to the Creation. This war is used to explain that the earth was destroyed. Without this War, the theory falls apart.

Biblically when angels cross G-d, they are harshly bound and punished. They are not rewarded with being "Prince of the Earth", allowed to freely walk the Earth or especially enter the Heavenly Court of G-d. In Jude 1:6, 2 Peter 2:4 angels who did not keep their dominions were bound in chains and darkness until Judgement Day. Compare to the angels bound at the Euphrates (Revelations 9:14) and to Azazel bound in the desert.

The Satan of the book of Job on the other hand enjoys free travel between the Heavens and Earth. Even in the Gospels, Satan freely roams the Earth and is even called Prince of the Earth and the Powers of the Aer. (Aer in Greek being the lesser heaven beneath the Aether) It is not until the end times shown in the Book of Revelations that Satan is finally bound.

While some of the premise you offer here seems rational, there is somethings with have been either not considered or ignored.

Satan, is bound in his physical form and has been, but nothing contains his Spirit, which is also the case with the balance of the fallen. Yes, they are bound and this is part and parcel of why there are no gods of Sumer, or Egypt, or Babylon, or Greece, or India, or China, or Maya on the planet today. They where bound around the days of Noah. Prior to this, as the legends of Sumer, Egypt, Babylon, Greece, India, China, and Maya for examples, they had these gods. Certainly the Bael Worship of the MidEast had a source, which was the spirit of Satan, influencing man. Pick a lessor god, and it's the same, since the time of them being bound. They are no longer here physically, but spiritually, they have never gone.

As for the account in Job, Satan was, as described, walking about the earth, to and fro, and interacting with men. Was it him Physically or Spiritually, is unclear. You have your view, I have mine.

And as for the End Times, yes, Satan is again bound, but you failed to acknowledge or at least indicate he is loosed but for a short period. 3 and 1/2 years or maybe 7, depending upon ones outlook.

The Gospels indicate that, in the end days, it shall be as it was in the days of Noah, (Noe). How was it in the days of Noah? They (the fallen), where taking the Daughters of man and creating men of renoun, such as Hercules for an example. In the End Days, it shall be like this again. When are the End Days? NOW. Turn on your AM radio, and listen to Noorey on Coast to Coast. Exactly what do you think he is speaking about? Aleins? IN their Flying Craft, and talking about Abductions, and Sexual Experiments, (Hybird Speices), and such. This is the days of Noah that Christ himself spoke of. Learn the parable of the Fig Tree. It is the timepiece that indicates the End Times.

The Fallen, have been "released" from thier confines, to prepare for the Battle recorded in Revelations. They are getting ready, as best they can, since it is clear they loose again.

And just to add to the confusion, AFTER the Millenium Kingdom, Satan is yet again set free, and this leads to the period both Isaiah and Ezekiel where noting in the close of their prophecies. The King of Babylon and the King of Tyre, (which is actually the same entity) then gets thrown into the Pit and burn and are no more. (This is the Hell, the Church speaks about in a fanciful manner, but in actuality, it is an conclusion and is finite, for ever and ever. The Fire consumes Satan, and any who choose after the Millenium Kingdom, to follow Satan. This is why the Millenium Kingdom is so important. Based on the "Today" Who could ever expect to be taught the Word of GOD, in the sects of Religious Circles? They preach DOGMA, THEOLOGY and DOCTRINES certainly constrewed by MAN, instead of Teaching the WORD. Christ will teach us, and then we can make an informed choice.

The Gap theory also depends on the introduction of death, destruction and sin into the world before Adam, which totally contradicts scripture.

1 Corinthians 15: 21-22

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being.

For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life,

Ah, but Adam, as well as the Sixth Day, were perfectly fine, prior to the events in the Garden. As was the Recreation. God looked and it was Good. If this is something that is inclusive in someway, I am at a loss, since the Sin of Man stems from the Seduction of Eve and likewise Adam. Prior to this, everything appears to be in a Perfected State.

Humanity is soley responsible for the death brought into the world.

And as noted just above, this is the realm of Free Will in action. Yes, Humanity is to blame for it's own problems, but they have, and still are being assisted by those who are Bound, but yet Spiritually loosened.

Remember, it is you who will use Ephesians (or just did), and this is exactly what I am attempting to stress. It is a Spiritual War that is ongoing. Being waged for the souls of mankind. This war is lead by the Prince of the Power of the Air (Aer). That Desolation of Abomination, spoken of in Daniel.

Ciao

Shane

reply to post by MikeboydUS


So, I have two questions for you.

1: Based on the measure and meanings you have offered so far, it appears to me that your views inrespect to the Fallen, (sorry, my preconceptions stepping into the query), are that these entities are infact personages, whether in the past, or in a Prophetic Sense, appose to the Fallen and their Leader, again being referenced in the Past or Future.

With that said, would I be correct in this assumption?

2: The Problem which surrounds the events that take place prior to the Days of Noah, are problems that needed to be dealt with, and in an immeadiate manner. The Flood, was to ensure the Majority of these problems where eliminated, in a physical sense.

Now if one was to ask me what a Demon is, I would offer that it is a Spirit of an Nephilium. If one was to ask what happened to the Fallen, I would offer they are Bound Physically within the bowels of the Earth, but again, there is no cage that confines spirit. The Flood certainly did eliminate a great majority of the Nephilium, along with the Polluted Population on Earth, but what of the Fallen.

With that said, am I to believe, YOU feel these are events that haven't occured todate, (the Elimination of the Physical Nephilium and Fallen) and this is what is outlined in Revelation, as a onetime occurance?

It would assist in understanding your perspective.

And yes, it is a fine thing to discuss matters. Unfortunately I haven't proper time to offer a reply for your last post, but I look forward to reviewing it and responding in the next day or so.

Again, thanks for your time as well. No one learns anything in here, if they do not get a chance to see views and concerns expressed and offered. And maybe some will catch on and figure out this is what debating and discussing matters truly is. Open and appreciated views being exchanged.

Have a Good evening.

Ciao

Shane

reply to post by Shane


Where do you get the idea of Satan being bound in the present?

Satan is bound in Revelations 20:2-3 and locked up during the millenial reign of the messiah. In Revelations 20:7 Satan is released and after causing more problems, he is thrown in the "Lake of Fire" in Revelations 20:10

The 3 1/2 year tribulation or 7 year reign of the Beast occurs before Satan is bound. That 7 year period ends with the millenial reign of the messiah.

Your missing what the Bible is saying in regards to the sons of G-d. Some have fallen and are bound, those that did not keep their dominion from the book of Jude. These would be the sons of G-d from Genesis that you are thinking of.

The other powers and principalities like the Princes of Greece, Persia, Rome, Babylon, Tyre, Magog, and so forth are still in power. They are still in the heavens. They have not fallen yet. That is why Satan is called the "prince of the authorities of the aer (lesser or lower heaven)" and why the powers and principalities are said to be in the heavens ( ἐπουρανίοις, epouraniois) in Ephesians 6:12.

Ah, but Adam, as well as the Sixth Day, were perfectly fine, prior to the events in the Garden. As was the Recreation. God looked and it was Good. If this is something that is inclusive in someway, I am at a loss, since the Sin of Man stems from the Seduction of Eve and likewise Adam. Prior to this, everything appears to be in a Perfected State.

That is my point. Adam brought it into the world, not some pre creation War in Heaven.

So, I have two questions for you.

1. My view is that we talking about a number of distinct and different sons of G-d. Some have fallen and were bound before the Flood. After the Flood, humanity was divided into 70 nations. Each one of these were appointed a son of G-d as its Sar or prince. Israel(Jacob), separate from the 70, is appointed Michael as its Sar or Prince. "The Satan" of the book of Job has a position of importance among these sons of G-d. In the Gospel and the Epistles, Satan is described as Prince of the Earth, over the other Heavenly powers and principalities.

So these are two distinct groups of sons of G-d. The first group served a different function and purpose than the Sarim or Principalities after the Flood. Jewish lore indicates the first group served as "Watchers" or sentinels. Their leader is indicated as Azazel, who is bound on earth.
This first group has fallen and is indicated to be bound on earth or in the Deep (Abyss).

Thats my view, based on Biblical scripture, but also somewhat influenced by the Midrash, Apocrypha, and the Dead Sea Scrolls (which includes the Book of Enoch).


2. Nephilim is an interesting word and seems to indicate "Fallen". Lets look at Genesis 6:1-4

And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

That the sons of G-d saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

And the L-RD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

There were Nephilim on the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of G-d came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Now most people think the Nephilim are the hybrid offspring. After looking at the Hebrew and the word Nephilim itself I don't think it applies to the children. It appears to apply to the sons of G-d. When the sons of G-d took human wives and had their demigod children, it appears that the sons of G-d became the fallen or the Nephilim. There are hints of this elswhere in Psalms 82 where G-d threatens the elohim with mortality and falling.

This implies there are three levels or degrees of falling.
One: To be mortal or walk the earth as Nephilim.
Two: To be bound on earth and haunt it as "Genius Loci".
Three: To be bound in the Deep (Abyss, Tartaros).

This doesn't discount the pollution or corruption your talking about. The demigod offspring are still there. This doesn't fully explain the origin of various unclean spirits or "demons" either. There are at numerous kinds or types of "demons" mentioned in the Bible. The Seirim, Shedim, Ovoth, Tannim, and Lilith are examples of different kinds. Personally I think some of the Cryptid sightings could possibly be explained by some of these, but thats another topic.

I think though we are in somewhat agreement on this, even if we have some semantic differences.

Well explained Mike.

I still do not quite agree, but that's fine as well.

My belief is a simple one, based specifically upon the premise that the FALL, has occured, and that Dragon, the Serpent, the Devil, Satan, spoken of in Revelations acted out the events that led to a war between GOD and the Angels and the 1/3 which Satan has already led astray. This event destroyed the 1st Earth Age.

Scripturally, it is supported, but as you have expressed, "Other" outlooks could be what is presented, as in the case Prince of Tyre.

I have great difficulty when considering a MAN is being discussed, based on the refereneces to duties and abilities that is of the Realm of the Sons of GOD. I doubt that will ever change.

And in respects to being Bound, it is as Paul expressed a Spiritual Battlefield that we are involved in currently. I believe we are in agreement on this.

But "Some" of these "Spirits" have been in the presence of their FATHER and acknowledge the Devine Authority of GOD. They have and will continue to have, no need of being introduced to the notion of who truly is the Most High. The Lord GOD Almighty.

Take the Demoniac in the Graveyard. What introduction occurs?

Mark 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said,

What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

5:8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.

5:9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

No introduction occurs. Legion, was fully aware of who Jesus IS and WHO has Authority, prior to Christ even saying anything. They already knew defeat was at hand, and seemed to attempting to postpone the event.

This is the Spiritual Battle.

As for Satan......

Matthew Chapter 4
1 Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

This is a Spiritual Tempting, which occured.

Jesus wasn't in the Wilderness, and then "TRAVELED" with Satan to the Holy City, Jerusalem, which could have been a few days of walking.

Taking the General "Landscape", I would harbour to guess an EXCEEDING high mountain would be a signifigant "Distance" from the Holy Land. Again, I can not seem to see any "TRAVEL" Plans made between Jesus and Satan.

This is the Realm, the walking to and fro, so to speak, that the Dragon, that Old Serpent, the Devil, Satan, has always enjoyed, and as evident in Society as a WHOLE, it is a good thing his Princedom is within the realm of the Spiritual. MAN has spiraled downward into a devolutionary pit of understanding, as the "Screwtape Letters" show.

But I trust this will have little bearing upon you, since it seems your views are based upon what you believe them to be, WHICH IS fine with me.

As for the Genesis 6 matter, I understand what you are indicating. I believe there are infact several "Ideas" as to what Nephelium are.

Personally, I believe they are the Offspring, but I can see Other Views in respects to this. I do not think it really matters much. The FALLEN are the FALLEN, and the OFFSPRING are their OFFSPRING, and a Rose by anyother name is still a Rose. Argueing Titleship is just FN Nutty. It serves no purpose.

BUT yes, those who bound themselves in Enoch are what you have expressed as "Princes of Greece, Persia, Rome, Babylon, Tyre, Magog, and so forth". They chose to leave their place of Habitation, (Heaven) and that leads upto the events outlined in Genesis 6, and Enoch 10.

With that Said, THESE ENTITIES are STILL as active "SPIRITUALLY" as when they Originally Fell. There is no "CONFINEMENT" of the Spirit. These entities are still PRINCES of these realms, as you wished to note. This has never ended. The Physical did, but the Spirit lives on.

Anyhow, have a nice day, and I look forward to discussing matters in detail, when time premits.

Ciao

Shane



Enoch 10

So, time permits!

Mike, I understand your views in respects to the matter of The Fallen, and whether or not they have fallen, as of yet, but as outlined from the Wiki Source, this premise is based upon several other considerations, that at this point, you have neither discussed or responded to.

Now, I am 100% certian, you have views on these, so I will not repeat the offerings previously made. I will await your reply in respect to these matters.

BUT, with that said, I thought maybe some other sources should be offered and examine what they seemingly indicate.

First, lets dwell a bit upon the basis from which I would have a belief that Satan is currently Bound, and the Fallen have previously fallen and where previously "Bound, and/or Confined", are Loose right now, and actively interacting with Humanity once more, will be bound again, along with satan, for the Millenium Kingdom, only to be set free for a season, at the end of the Millenium Kingdom, and just prior to the Judgement Day, only to be sent to the Firey Pits of Hell, to but away, and be gone and never remembered again, forever and ever, Amen.

So, if this is something that I consider correct, then I should be in a position to verify that the Fallen, have fallen, and have been confined/bound since the Days of Noah, which is when they became bound the first time.

In the Old Testament, and within the previously noted Job, we have a comment, made in passing, which actually says something we should consider in respects to this matter.

Job 4:18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:

He, being mentioned is GOD. And the Angels GOD charged with Folly.

Now Eliphaz wasn't the brightess bulb in the socket, but even he has an understanding that GOD has previously Dealt with rebelious Angels.

We could look a a few offerings within the New Testament for some "Other" comments which may imply more than they seem, since they appear a insignifigant fact, that does not seem to require elaboration.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Once again, a discourse is offered as to the Power of GOD, and corrective measures he has already passed. Where does Jude indicate these entities are. Bound/Confined under darkness.

Is this something out of Context? Neither of these two examples seemingly are.

Could we look elsewhere? How's 2 Peter sound?

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Once again, this premise is echoed. GOD has already dealt with the Fallen Angels and they had been Bound/Confined.

So yes, it appears, that despite your indications previously, the Fallen have fallen and also been bound.

I contend today, they are no longer bound/confined, based upon the following.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Echoed again

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

I believe these passages are indicating what was taking place in Genesis 6, will occur in the end days, and when Christ returns, he will wash clean the Earth, like the flood did, of the Fallen and their Spawn.

Today, we simply call them Aliens, since we now are enlightened.

Well thanks for the time and patience reviewing these matter.

Yours truly

Shane

1611 King James Bible