Hitler Then vs Hitler Now

Originally posted by shamhat

The voice of those opposed could list the contributions of Karl Marx and his
Bolshevik, Communists followers.
What do you think?

I'm quite happy to offer up my interpretation based upon my reading, which is all it would be, but where would you have me start if you want the influence of Bolshevism on Hitler to be taken into account?

[edit on 8-1-2010 by shamhat]

I think a good place to start would be any connection to Marx by the Bolsheviks as it applies to the 1st world war forward.
I think the role they play is directly connected to the American experience of today. Actually the world .

reply to post by neformore


Thank you very much for the that. It will do for sure.

reply to post by shamhat


Yes please if it's possible. I would like to take into account as much as possible.

Originally posted by OldDragger
reply to post by Naboo the Enigma

 

Great post.
Remember though, this thread is an amoral intellectual discussion.
It's only emotional propaganda when real facts of psychotic barbarism like you presented. Hitler was a poor misunderstood guy/

So what would that make the trouble makers--- the Lenin's Trotsky and other Marxist ??? They were playing in the same game.
You know what ---you can't answer this I bet.

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
I think a good place to start would be any connection to Marx by the Bolsheviks as it applies to the 1st world war forward.
I think the role they play is directly connected to the American experience of today. Actually the world .

I'll give it a go, from 1917 would seem appropriate, but neither you nor December Rain should hold your breath, it may take me a while. However, given that neformore's post runs from circa 1933, I may just take 1917 to 1933 in the first instance, for expediency.

reply to post by shamhat


I admire all that participate in this discussion. The subject matter is not for the faint of hart.
All here with opinions toss their hat into the earth shattering mix of the recent past.
A good question for that may be----WHY. There is no doubt that most of us live, at least some of that past through the eyes of our parents and ancestors. Some of it comes through our religious and academic educators. And there is a fair amount that comes from our friends and the media.
Adolph is just a focal point of that history in this discussion.

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
reply to post by shamhat

 

I admire all that participate in this discussion. The subject matter is not for the faint of hart.
All here with opinions toss their hat into the earth shattering mix of the recent past.
A good question for that may be----WHY. There is no doubt that most of us live, at least some of that past through the eyes of our parents and ancestors. Some of it comes through our religious and academic educators. And there is a fair amount that comes from our friends and the media.
Adolph is just a focal point of that history in this discussion.

I just read a lot of second world war history, seems to float my boat in someway. You read about the war itself and the holocaust is a nothing, a foot note, and it makes perfect sense in context to all that. Take it away, study it as a stand alone and it suddenly seems impossible.

As with everything, it is all about perspective.

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
I admire all that participate in this discussion. The subject matter is not for the faint of hart. All here with opinions toss their hat into the earth shattering mix of the recent past. A good question for that may be----WHY.

I'll second your admiration and attempt to answer 'WHY'.

I think the core motive to dig deeper comes from a need to understand the human condition in relationship to the bigger picture. What happened, seems so incredible that it borders on unbelievable. Still to this day we feel/see a world that has been dramatically shaped by all that took place back then. Just as 911 has for better and mostly worst.

Then when you discover the exaggerations and fabrications that have been spun by the victors throughout the years, one can't help but want to get the story straight... so they can have a hand in correcting the record. No one likes to be lied to, especially about events from our collective past that have shaped who we are.

As much as we all like to deny it, there is a little Hitler in each and every one of us.

[edit on 14-1-2010 by The Blind Eye]

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

 

"Nobody know how many died in those camps"? Well, we do know how many were killed by the Nazis. So you're kind of hinging your argument on "if".

I, personally have my doubts that the gulags and regimental purges of Stalin and Lenin combined reached the numbers of the full Holocaust. But as you say, we don't know, and it's unlikely we will.

With the numbers we DO have, though, Hitler is the clear... uh... "winner" is such an odd term to use. If we add in the deaths cause by Nazi aggression, there's simply no contest.

Actually, the fact is that Lenin, Stalin and the rest of the Bolsheviiks killed well over 100 million people. More than WWII in fact. And the thing everyone always leaves out is: They were Jewish. Hmmm.

reply to post by CaptChaos


I hope all members take a good look at your profile.
What do you base your comments on?
This entire thread is loaded with history centered around Hitler.
I hope you can post some links. Welcome to ATS.

[edit on 14-1-2010 by Donny 4 million]

this is a link to a huge page of photos taken of the bloody conflict over the Gaza strip - it was posted in another ATS thread titled Images from Gaza - WARNING!!! GRAPHIC.

the images are very graphic but if you can stand it, even just for the first few pictures, please see what is going on over there in the so-called "promised land."

i have been thinking about these pictures all afternoon.
and to be honest, the undeniable evidence in the photos made me literally sick to my stomach; not from shock and a weak stomach but from just plain old honest anger!


they [Israel] bombed a school!

and from every clue in the pictures, it was during school hours and there were many young casualties...

so, thinking about this HEINOUS act - this TRAVESTY of the so-called "promised land" - i thought of this Hitler thread....

i'm wondering, if Hitler could see these images and hear a report of the last 70-years' unending strife, bloodshed, and heartache that has taken place in that tiny little part of the world...what would he think?

what would he say?

think about it, if Hitler were to suddenly, somehow, show up on the world scene this very week...and denounce what is going on in the name of Judaism (or more properly, Zionism)...

would anyone agree with him?
would he still be hated?
would those who now criticize Israel's policies change their stance in order to NOT side with Hitler?
would the Palestinians invite Hitler to their Embassy for tea and petit-fours?
would there be a rash of crime - of holocaust denial?

what would you do?

and lastly, i wonder, does this kind of irrational and needless MURDER also count as a HOLOCAUST?
because there are a whole lot of incendiary weapons being used, from the looks of it...and there are a lot of innocent children dying in the name of Israel...for the sake of a national home for the Jews - for Israel.

and what does the word "nationalism" REALLY mean?

and why is it okay, today, in this place - but is/was judged as a mortal abomination and a capital war crime against humanity during WWII?

i don't see ANY DIFFERENCE
except for the lack of photographic evidence against Germany and Hitler. there are a lot of photos taken of emaciated prisoners dying of TB or typhus or even just malnutrition, which is horrid, too, and unsettling, but to me ( and this is just my own PERSONAL OPINION), blowing little kid's legs off, with bombs thrown on both purpose and course, while they are learning to read...is one of the worst things i've ever heard of, in all of the world and history!

i'll tell you what i would do, if i were GOD

nevermind!

that's precisely why they don't let me be GOD - i get ugly!

possibly even medieval


the one thing i can do is raise my voice and speak out about what i am seeing - not with agenda-driven eyes but with the eyes of a human being!

--------------------------------
[NOTE]: to all of you out there who are already springing to your keyboard with epithets such as JEW HATER and NEO NAZI erupting violently into the aether toward my direction, please wait for one more minute and read the following:

• i am not a Jew hater in any degree - hell, i don't even hate Zionists, Muslims, or members of Al Qaeda - i hate NO ONE for any reason
  
• i am not a Nazi, skinhead, or a member of the KKK - my dad was a German-American but i am adopted - i do not prefer any certain race or national identity any more than i despise any other - on both of those counts i am absolutely neutral, in side and out.
• and there is no denying the fact of, that if the Germans had been known as "Jews" and the people of Israel had been German, then you'd be calling me a German-Hater and an Israeli Fascist Pig...and that would be the ONLY difference in this pattern of dysfunction related to the issues of WWII.

thank you

I'm an expert in financial management and an trained accountant. For most of my adult life, I believed that free trade was better than having high trade barriers and tarriffs. Then I read that Germany in late 1800s and pre-WW1 experienced tremendous economic growth because they had a protectionist trade policy and I think I also read that 19th century US benefitted from a protectionist trade policy too. I'm now against free trade because it exports millions of jobs to lower wage countries. It's not that I wish people in developing countries ill will but rather that I don't like seeing middle class workers in US and Canada(where I live) lose everything they've worked for because of it. The US has a sufficiently large population that it doesn't need foreign trade. The only major import is oil and the US could become self-sufficient in oil again if it followed the Russian model and drilled for really deep oil. International trade benefits multinational corporations and indirectly banks. And my opinion of international bankers is only slightly better than my opinion of intelligence agency people and lawyers which is to say barely above bottom feeding slugs.

What Germany's recovery in the 30's show is that depression feeds on itself until the economy hits rock bottom and then the recovery also feeds on itself as money starts to circulate faster, the government gets more tax revenues which ends up creating more jobs from military rearmament spending, which generates more consumption, etc.

While the Nazis did a lot of the right things to help the economy along, they also benefited from the right timing. Long term economic cycles like the Kondratieff cycle and Elliott Waves of supercycle and grand supercycle degree also played a major roll. Those cycles would have pulled all industrial nations out of the depression eventually. The war just accelerated the overall trend.

reply to post by Studenofhistory


thank you for sharing your insight!
these are things that i don't have a clue about unless i'm told about it by someone who does know...

there is more and more coming to light about just how much the same old avaricious motivations were driving WWII in much the same way as has always been.

imperialism might be better understood if the definition were a bit broader and took into consideration the modern world which has practically no more unclaimed land but instead has financial empires as conquest and booty.