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posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 06:24 PM
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reply to post by On the Edge


"...Blavatsky also equated Lucifer with Jesus Christ. This thinking is partially derived from various mystical interpretations of God’s Word. In Revelation 22:16 Jesus is called the "bright and morning star," and in Isaiah Lucifer is referred to as the "son of the morning" (the NIV also says "son of the dawn"). Mystically and astrologically speaking, the bright and morning star is Venus, which, in the teachings of occult schools, is symbolically Lucifer. And in the solar cults, the morning star is frequently referred to as the Sun, or "son" of the morning, and "son of god." According to Blavatsky’s esoteric theology, "Lucifer is divine and terrestrial light, the ‘Holy Ghost’ and ‘Satan,’ at one and the same time…"


I'm going to jump out there with a bold idea that probably no one can accept. Lucifer, as light bearer, is in fact the same angel that God used as His sometime visible representative to man. In that sense Lucifer was the 'light of the world', bearing God's light. Jesus took over that position.



JN 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

2PE 1:19 And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

REV 21:22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light,

REV 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."


For some reason I think it not wise to equate Lucifer with Satan. Angels are messengers. Who knows maybe the sun itself is a messenger, carrying the current earthly light and indicating a larger spiritual truth.

Then we have Satan, the accuser, and the angel of the Abyss, Apollyon(destroyer), and an old time angel going by the title YHWH.



REV 12:7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.


It's only that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. From what I've read so far from links and such. The deception is to continue obsolete worship of mere angels which were used at various times to show something greater. All this angel worship is bogus, including building a temple of stone to wrangle some angel or other into.

The only new age that's true is the one Jesus brought in when he proclaimed himself to be the light of the world, thus rendering all other light bearers obsolete. Trying to hold on to old forms of worship is worse than putting new wine in old wineskins.




posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 06:39 PM
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reply to post by pthena
 


It certainly has raised alot of thoughtful questioning on the matter.

Like I've said,I'll err on the side of caution.

In any case,to me "Jesus is Lord",and in no way would I confuse Him with Lucifer,so guess I am going with the "old school" line of thinking. It makes sense to me that Satan and Lucifer as one.

Maybe it is meant to be confusing?

What does your heart tell you?



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 07:02 PM
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reply to post by On the Edge
My heart tells me that building systems of belief where everythings fits nicely together in a systematic way tends to blind people.

The Papacy has a closed system.
The Calvinists have a closed system.
The Dispensationalists have a closed system.
The SDAs have a closed system.
The Mormons have a closed system.

All these closed systems with wildly different beliefs yet they fit together logically internally. And each have questions they dare not be asked, because each has chinks. If you find yourself explaining away a question rather than answering it, you have found a chink.



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 07:06 PM
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Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by On the Edge
My heart tells me that building systems of belief where everythings fits nicely together in a systematic way tends to blind people.

The Papacy has a closed system.
The Calvinists have a closed system.
The Dispensationalists have a closed system.
The SDAs have a closed system.
The Mormons have a closed system.

All these closed systems with wildly different beliefs yet they fit together logically internally. And each have questions they dare not be asked, because each has chinks. If you find yourself explaining away a question rather than answering it, you have found a chink.


You're right about that.

Guess we'll just have to wait and find out who was right in the end!



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 07:09 PM
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reply to post by On the Edge
 


True... Edge, bud,mam,whatever may be the case,we love you too.

[edit on 4-1-2010 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 07:30 PM
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What I believe that many who turn to the New Age and alternative religions, is that there is a problem with the Judaic religions, (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) in a whole, and how it is presented.
Now don't get me wrong, the beliefs that are presented are excellent, and are filled with lessons, however, when all you have is one source, and it does not answer questions, then what is a person to do? If all you hear is that if you don't behave you get spanked all of the time, or see where people treat their belief as a burden, then what does that say? Most, from what I have observed, do not celebrate their faith, they morn it. There is no beauty, no glory that could be, rather the message is you inherit the sin of your forefathers and therefore are going to be punished for their actions. Or if you question, you are told you are wrong, told to read something that does not answer those questions.
Belief is something that people have to come to in their own terms, finding what is correct for them, rather than what is set out. Too many arguments about what the intenet on what someone may or may not have said, or did, long ago, or the interpertation may or may not be correc, and sometimes the lessons just don't fit with what we as a peope deal with always abound. No religion is correct, nor do they have the complete picture of what is, but, by keeping an open mind, and thinking about such, I believe most tend to come to the same conclusion, no matter what they believe.
Now I do disagree with the article, because when it is opened with a quote from the Bible, the argument holds no water, not because of the arthors conviction, but because he is quoting the Bible, and only the bible. I see no quotes or indications that he has gone through and read any other source beyond that. A one sided presentation does not sway people.



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 09:01 PM
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reply to post by pthena
 

Then we have Satan, the accuser, and the angel of the Abyss, Apollyon(destroyer), and an old time angel going by the title YHWH.
I don't know if I would say that without qualification.
I think there is a lot more of the name YHWH thrown about in the Old Testament than there was the actual YHWH behind everything attributed to him, by zealous scribes trying to promote their personal favorite god.



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 10:28 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60


I don't know if I would say that without qualification.
I think there is a lot more of the name YHWH thrown about in the Old Testament than there was the actual YHWH behind everything attributed to him, by zealous scribes trying to promote their personal favorite god.

That's part of the problem I have with the OT. If everything written as from YHWH is in fact from YHWH then I would feel inclined to curse YHWH.
In Job even, the one I would call the destroyer comes as YHWH.



1KI 19:11 The LORD said, "Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by."
Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. 12 After the earthquake came a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper.


So I watch these youtube clips and I read these articles linked to on threads, and I'm convinced that the Jesuits run the world directly and thru proxy agents in Illuminati, and Trilateral commission, and Freemasons, and Knights of Malta, etc etc etc. What is it that these people think they have that we the common people don't have? I'm convinced that their self perceived advantage is in the matter of names. Evidently they have some ancient 'wisdom' with magic ceremonies and invocations of names.

Am I convinced that the top dog 'of the world' knows more names of angels than I do? Absolutely. Am I convinced a 33rd degree Free Mason could summon 'the destroying angel' by name and instruct him to destroy me? Absolutely. Would the destroyer kill me? Maybe and maybe not.



JER 31:34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

So what do I, a common uninitiated man, have to give me courage at all? What gives me the audacity to not bend knee to the Beast that no one on earth can stand against? All I've got is one name given unto men, and that name is Jesus. He's the one who said, "If you see me, you see the Father. Hear what I say, it is the word the Father gave me for you."

The old angels are nothing to me. That's what 'they' have.
The old names are nothing to me. That's what 'they' have.
The old rituals are nothing to me. That's what 'they' have.
The old laws are nothing to me. That's what 'they' have.
The old temples are nothing to me. That's what 'they' have.
The old creeds are nothing to me. That's what 'they' have.

They, the powerful men of the world have taken everything of value in the world. All I have left is a man's name. My man in heaven. He's got names given to him by the Father that no man or angel knows or has heard. He's beyond the reach of all sorceries, witchrafts, and wizardrys. My man is Jesus. And that's all I have. His promise is resurrection and life.



[edit on 4-1-2010 by pthena]



posted on Jan, 4 2010 @ 10:49 PM
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Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by jmdewey60


. My man is Jesus. And that's all I have.

[edit on 4-1-2010 by pthena]


In my opinion,that is all you need!

You believe Jesus is the Son of God who died for your sins,....His victory is yours also!

John 3:16 says it all!

And nobody can take that away from you!



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 07:57 AM
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Originally posted by On the Edge



If you want to say that Satan and Lucifer are not the same,you're free to keep believing that!

Even the dictionary says they are the same! (You can make fun of that source all you want. Makes it seem like "common knowledge",if you ask me!)



The problem with "common knowledge" is that it's usually not very accurate.

The idea that "Lucifer" is a name for Satan is a modern one, originating with Milton's poem "Paradise Lost". Previously, "Lucifer" was not considered a name for Satan.

The "Lucifer" spoken of in Isaiah actually refers to Tigleth-pilaser, who was king of Babylon at the time it was written. The Latin word "Lucifer" was inserted into the text by St. Jerome as a dig at his theological opponent, St. Lucifer of Cagliari. It had nothing to do with the devil.

"Lucifer" is also used in the Latin translation of the Bible in 2 Peter 1:19, referring to Jesus.

Outside of Christianity, "Lucifer" was a title used by the Romans to describe the Greek god Apollo, as well as the goddess Venus, as as well the planet Venus. The term is also used in theosophy to describe personal enlightenment. There is really no historical or even traditional relation between the devil and the title "Lucifer".



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 11:14 AM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by On the Edge



If you want to say that Satan and Lucifer are not the same,you're free to keep believing that!





Outside of Christianity, "Lucifer" was a title used by the Romans to describe the Greek god Apollo, as well as the goddess Venus, as as well the planet Venus. The term is also used in theosophy to describe personal enlightenment. There is really no historical or even traditional relation between the devil and the title "Lucifer".



Well,I'll share this with you then.



From
rikijo.blogspot.com...

QUOTE:

"So..Who or what is 'APOLLO?'


...Apollo is a powerful God which has inspired several "demonic" or Abyssic Gods. Known as Helios by Nero Caesar, Phoebus or "Shining," Apollo is the twin brother of Artemis (Diana). His center of worship was at was at Delphi and was renowned throughout the ancient world for its oracular advice delivered by a priestess called the Pythia the Chthonic serpent/dragon. Nero Caesar and Domitian actually considered himself a manifestation of Apollo as he is the God of Illumination, Light, Music, Medicine and more. His arrows send plague and death which earned him the Biblical name of Apollyon or Abaddon, the King of the Bottomless Pit/ Lucifer.

...In order to establish the basis for this great Moon landing deception/hoax, let's examine the name of NASA's deceptive program: Apollo.

..."Apollo" is another name for Satan or Lucifer.

...Isn't it odd that NASA would name its first exploration of another celestial body after the great deceiver of men himself, Satan?

...It's not surprising once you start to see the reasonings behind the entire program."...



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 11:17 AM
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reply to post by On the Edge
 


We're probably not going to agree on this. Everytime I hear someone start talking about demons and such, as in the website you quoted, my B.S. detector goes off pretty loudly.

[edit on 5-1-2010 by Masonic Light]



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 11:29 AM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
reply to post by On the Edge
 


We're probably not going to agree on this. Everytime I hear someone start talking about demons and such, as in the website you quoted, my B.S. detector goes off pretty loudly.

[edit on 5-1-2010 by Masonic Light]



Much like mine when I hear people saying Satan and Lucifer are not the same!

And no matter the name.the role is the same. That of deception and leading away from God.

You can always find people who say what you want to hear. I'll stick with the Bible! God is still speaking through it,no matter what people say about men tampering with it.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 11:31 AM
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reply to post by On the Edge
 


God speaks through lots of things. Actually, he speaks through everything.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 03:48 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
reply to post by On the Edge
 


God speaks through lots of things. Actually, he speaks through everything.



Yep,He can cut right through the B.S.!

(He sure got through to me,and I find it amazing every single day!)



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 03:57 PM
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reply to post by On the Edge
 


On the Edge...Im am curious how to come to know wisdom from BS. How do you determine something is from God or not from God?

If you care to elaborate, that is.



posted on Jan, 5 2010 @ 05:59 PM
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Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by On the Edge
 


On the Edge...Im am curious how to come to know wisdom from BS. How do you determine something is from God or not from God?

If you care to elaborate, that is.


That's a good question!

Just off the top of my head,I have to say it helps if you can break things down to it's "least common denominator",so to speak!

For me,I judge things by the word of God. He does speak adamantly against sorcery,witchcraft,mediums,and the like. So I consider the source.

God has given us a pretty good map of what is right and wrong,so I have that to go on.(If it's not for God,it may be against it-intentionally or not.)

If something seeks to glorify God,that's a good sign. If it seeks to glorify man's supposed goodness apart from God,I am highly skeptical.

I don't have to quote the Bible,but there are vast numbers of scripture on the subject that illustrate it better than I can!

Being aware of evil in things that I hadn't recognized before has made me wiser.(Things I've learned here at ATS have made me wiser about things I hadn't been wary of before!)

Knowing how relentless the devil is to confuse and distract has made me draw ever closer to the Lord in prayer,for discernment in all things.

Clinging to what I know to be good has kept me from falling for things the world would rather have me seek.

Learning to be content in any circumstances,knowing His grace is sufficient,has made me more appreciative,and probably "wiser".

I don't know...I'm not brilliant,in any worldly sense. I don't have any degrees or titles after my name. But I've learned He does answer prayer,and give grace to the humble who seek Him first.

His wisdom "is not of this world". And I'm not saying this boastfully,but I do believe He has given me eyes to see.

So,seeing as how we are not on the same "wavelength",my idea of wisdom may not be the same as yours at all.

What's your idea of Wisdom? How do you judge Good from Bad?
Care to elaborate?

P.S. I should add,alot of this "wisdom" has been learned the hard way! By making stupid choices and learning the difference!

[edit on 5-1-2010 by On the Edge]

[edit on 5-1-2010 by On the Edge]

[edit on 5-1-2010 by On the Edge]



posted on Jan, 6 2010 @ 12:07 AM
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reply to post by On the Edge
 


Hello again,

I have learned the hard way as well, with many things...and still learning. A part of the path for discernment, for me, is something in the gospels....know what is of flesh is of flesh, know what is of spirit is of spirit.

I believe that the gospels give a description of what love is....something like love is not boastful, not prideful, not greedy, not jealous, and there were some others, its late and just going on memory here. I dont believe that God, who is only good, who knows our hearts and thoughts, would be jealous, prideful, nor boastful. I dont believe the Perfect One that Jesus taught of is the same nature of some of the claims in in the OT. Through many studies, I dont believe Jesus was a sacrifice that had to be made required by God, but man who was mislead in thinking a final sacrifice was needed. I have many thoughts on the different natures through out the Bible and Jesus was defiantly living for the Spirit, not the life of flesh....this is what kept him righteous, even when they wanted him killed, he offered his life of flesh, knowing it was only righteous, it was only perfect, in the Spirit.

Through experiences as well, throughout my family. That is a whole other long story


I could go on and on how I have found much truth through scriptures, and make quotes, but I have studied many other text that arent in the Bible, I could go on and on about the things I have learned through just living, learning about the Universe, humans, Gods cycles and patterns throughout all things.

The nature of God, from experiences, is unconditional love for all life. What is of flesh, returns to Earth, what is of God, returns to God. One way or the other.

I think Jesus got tied to a religion that he taught against to a degree. The discerning from carnal natures of man and the Spiritual nature of God, I discern, what is a truth about God, that is written by men. I dont believe the Perfect Most High, who is only good, is the one that demanded sacrifices, ever. I believe through the experiences, my journey involves telling others of this shortcoming of man, trying to take what is of flesh into heaven. Our thoughts matter, very much so. God knows our intentions, Jesus showed us how to live more for Spirit, that the kingdom was within.

I still use the Bible very much in my studies, but I discern any and all writings. I look for the nature, of man...and of Spirit, what is perfect...for this is what I felt I was shown and guided to do.

If God was wrathful, jealous, prideful, fast to anger, then why would humans be expected to work on these things and try to become 'perfect' ....I think truth is right there in that book...for those that are truly seeing it through eyes of understanding. Man has mixed his own carnal natures into the image of what God is, which has caused much misunderstanding of God. I feel Jesus felt that sadness, for they didnt recognize a righteous nature when it stood before them. Then of course we have Rome, with their political agenda in all of this...tie the OT and this Jesus together, throw in our Greek/pagan twist a bit, trying to satisfy the masses and at the same time gain control and power.

I take many things into consideration, I think I already said, I could go on and on.....


What is of flesh is of flesh, what is of spirit is of spirit, live for the life of spirit, offer the life of flesh back to the Earth.
Im talking my head off...sorry...Im sleepy and seem to do that...ramble on.

Peace to you
LV



posted on Jan, 6 2010 @ 12:55 AM
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Originally posted by On the Edge
For me,I judge things by the word of God. He does speak adamantly against sorcery,witchcraft,mediums,and the like. So I consider the source.



Ahem, ahem. You do realize that those things weren't the same thing in ancient times as they are today, don't you?


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft (5331), hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of Elohim.
farmakeiva Pharmakeia (far-mak-i'-ah); Word Origin: Greek, Noun Feminine, Strong #: 5331

the use or the administering of drugs, poisoning. sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and fostered by it Metaphorically: the deceptions and seductions of idolatry



The drug industry is recognized as the Pharmaceutical Industry!
Webster's Dictionary defines pharmaceutical as:

From the Greek word Pharmakeia, to practice witchcraft, use medicine, a poison, medicine 1. Of pharmacy or pharmacists. 2. Of or by drugs: as, pharmaceutical cure.
Revalation 18:23
And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in you; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in you: for your merchants were the great men of the earth; for by their sorceries (5331)were all nations deceived. Re 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries,(5331) nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
Gotcha

In ancient times, a modern day pharmacist is what was considered a "witch" or "sorcerer."



posted on Jan, 6 2010 @ 01:34 AM
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Very good,Speaker of Truth!

I hadn't wanted to take it that far,but I applaud you for doing so!

All the same,that doesn't negate my point against "sorcery",magic spells,astrology,and the rest!

Isaiah 47:12-15 (New International Version)

12 "Keep on, then, with your magic spells
and with your many sorceries,
which you have labored at since childhood.
Perhaps you will succeed,
perhaps you will cause terror.

13 All the counsel you have received has only worn you out!
Let your astrologers come forward,
those stargazers who make predictions month by month,
let them save you from what is coming upon you.

14 Surely they are like stubble;
the fire will burn them up.
They cannot even save themselves
from the power of the flame.
Here are no coals to warm anyone;
here is no fire to sit by.

15 That is all they can do for you—
these you have labored with
and trafficked with since childhood.
Each of them goes on in his error;
there is not one that can save you


The point here being that we cannot save ourselves from what is to come! (And doing drugs,for "enlightenment",isn't a good idea either!)

[edit on 6-1-2010 by On the Edge]





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