The Belief in Things not Proven, page 4

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reply posted on 21-1-2010 @ 12:24 AM by Wertdagf

reply to post by Tayesin

Tayesin but what i believe it would take for me to have a personal experiance is some traumatic event where a lack of understanding forced halucinations to rationalize reality.

I truly believe that your personal experainces are the result of traumatic stress, brain damage, or mental disorder. Ive done so much to try and see what you do, but the logical reality of those things not existing is to powerfull to ignore.

The day you preform some miracle ill be right there to learn from you. i love you and want you to enjoy infinity and immortality, because there is nothing else that i believe can be offered.

[edit on 21-1-2010 by Wertdagf]

reply posted on 21-1-2010 @ 12:49 AM by randyvs

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

I have, in recent years, described myself as a "spiritual atheist". I don't believe in God, but I do believe in a spiritual realm. I believe that we all have souls that are non-physical and that continue to exist after the physical body dies... At least I thought that's what I believed.

So maybe you never played baseball. I will assume you know how it's
played.
You don't hit the ball, make it to first and then go sit on the bench.
You have to make it all the way around to home.

You are an example of an atheist of the worst kind.

You believe in every possibility of a God.

In fact you know there should be a God.
But by your own decision have taken him out of the game.

I'm sorry Ben, my respect for your intelligence, requires me to inform
you that you are most definetly" mixed " where you must be defined.

I refuse to ridicule you on this so please know that I'm not.

That said these are issues of the most important in life. You can not be a

Cherry picker

You say this is what you believe? I suggest to you that you don't.

[edit on 21-1-2010 by randyvs]

reply posted on 21-1-2010 @ 12:52 AM by Tayesin

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by Tayesin

Tayesin but what i believe it would take for me to have a personal experiance is some traumatic event where a lack of understanding forced halucinations to rationalize reality.

I truly believe that your personal experainces are the result of traumatic stress, brain damage, or mental disorder. Ive done so much to try and see what you do, but the logical reality of those things not existing is to powerfull to ignore.

The day you preform some miracle ill be right there to learn from you. i love you and want you to enjoy infinity and immortality, because there is nothing else that i believe can be offered.

[edit on 21-1-2010 by Wertdagf]

Thanks W.

That Belief, of having to have a traumatic experience to mechanise "an experience" is the Block in your path. Like I said before, the only block to what you can experience is what you believe about it all and yourself. You can change that belief.

Funnily enough W, trauma is the norm and always has been in all societies until the politically correct do-gooders get there hands on things to screw it up.

In earlier days we were of stronger stuff we humans. We had the inner strength to handle so much more than most people fumble and drop the ball in play with today. A bunch of sooks is what humanity is becoming, no back-bone, no consideration, no care, no manners and no ability to raise themselves above the sea of excrement all around them.

So, if we find the inner strength we can focus and overcome all obstacles. Example:- 1979 I was 19 years old and I had a massive motorcycle accident that broke my spine at the L2 level. After tests and scans etc, at Flinders University Hospital's Spinal Unit (Oz) I was told in no uncertain terms that I would never walk again. I was offered all sorts of surgeries to fuse, rebuild or experimentally replace the damaged bone, all of which I refused.

I told them that I refused to believe what they had to say to me and that I would walk out of the hospital in two weeks. I did, and I have not given up yet.. 50 now and still standing although a bit wobbly now.

The power is there, most people just need to be shown how to get to it and use it. Might have to make a video for the Tube showing how easy it is to move a real object using your mind and energy exercise.... okay that's now into the planning stage. I will let you know when I get it done W.

reply posted on 21-1-2010 @ 01:00 AM by Wertdagf

reply to post by Tayesin

thank you for your honesty.

My breath is always baited.

reply posted on 21-1-2010 @ 11:29 AM by Benevolent Heretic

I'm glad to see a resurgence of this thread! Very interesting discussion. I don't have time to go over it just now, but I will post more later after I read it. But I do want to answer this now.

Originally posted by Tayesin
Thanks. I was confused by you saying, "When we're not being all spiritual".

That seems to be a different thought-processing to us being spiritual beings. Was there some confusion going on at the time you wrote that?

What I meant by, "When we're not being all spiritual", is when we're just living our earthly lives day to day - Taking the kids to soccer, feeding the dogs, going to work, eating food... all the things we are required to do in the physical realm. Our physical selves need a lot of upkeep and sometimes (most times, actually) it seems as though the physical is the main component of our existence. At least that's the way I think it is for most people. Unless you're a monk, yogi, fakir, or other holy man who spends much time in the quest for spiritual awareness, most of our energy and efforts go into maintaining our physical selves. What we see, hear, feel, taste and smell are, to us, "real". When we're "being all spiritual" is when we're concentrating on that part of our being, by meditation, prayer, kelnoreem or just discussing the metaphysical realm.

I hope that's clear. I look forward to reading the rest of this thread!

[edit on 21-1-2010 by Benevolent Heretic]

reply posted on 21-1-2010 @ 04:56 PM by toochaos4u

BH. Here is a simple analogy

I believe that my cat has the ability to stand up on it's back paws and turn door knobs and opens cans of cat food for itself. I tried to capture the cat in the act but, in 4 years I have not been able to. I installed a surveillance spy camera in front of my bedroom door but, the cat did not make an attempt in several weeks so, I gave up.

Observations
In my bedroom I see the glass door knob turn and the door creeps open and the cat enters. I have seen my front door ajar and the cat outside if I do not lock the door. I have seen the cat push cans of cat food out of the cabinet but, have never seen the cat pull the tab on top of the can.

It could very well be that another person is hiding in my home and I haven't discovered them, a sympathetic alien, inter-dimensional being, god/s could be doing it on the cat's command. But, I believe my cat has the knowledge to do these things even though I have not observed them in four years.

In the same manner I have seen/heard a couple of strange things in my years but, I try not put labels on them because the simple fact is I do not know what caused them. I think it is blind faith that is dangerous as well as the human necessity to label everything. Are the strange things I have witnessed a delusion, ghost, demon, alien, god/s or something entirely different? I do not know because nothing stepped forward to reveal to me.

Do I believe there is more to life based upon the unusual events? Yes. Do I subscribe to religious dogma (any religion) that poorly tries to explain them? No.

[edit on 21/1/10 by toochaos4u]

reply posted on 21-1-2010 @ 06:57 PM by Tayesin

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Thanks again Heretic. I understand what you meant now. It does seem as if the daily-grind takes our attention away from the larger picture around us.

Although, it does not have to as we can find a balance point to operate from that is capable of conducting our day to day must do's and still maintain awareness of what is all around us. But it is a fine line taking a lot of practice, especiall if kids are involved.

reply posted on 21-1-2010 @ 08:12 PM by Devino

reply to post by randyvs

This can be construed as a compliment to Benevolent Heretic in my opinion.
A 'non-believer in the worst way' is one that believes but at the same time also listens to the advice of others who claim to be believers thus causing themselves to believe they are non-believers. Sort of reads like a riddle but I think this is a step in the correct direction as long as it is seen for what it is.
Every 'Heretic' is a theist in their mind and it is so that every theist is a heretic in their mind. Either way what is lacking in these situations is one's own personal faith. Faith is not something that is given by anyone nor can it ever be taken away.

I have heard many people preach their interpretation of the "word" of God claiming that taking Christ into ones heart will free them from sin. When I truly believe that I have done this and, as such, claim ever so subtly that I am now free from sin I get opposition, ridicule and disbelief.
The hypocrisy is that I am supposed to follow these words to a point and then fail as it is believed that no man can be truly free from sin. I feel pity for those that follow such a futile path.

I am continually called a sinner even though I have followed these words and have found my way down the path towards Truth. Some may claim that I am the one in error, however, these claims do not bother me as I can see the truth in all of these words.

Some of the so called preachers of the 'word', evangelicals as they call themselves, push people towards what they think is the true word of God (bible thumping). Yet if some should happen to actually find such a path and "Believe" in the true teachings of Jesus they are then called blasphemers and heretics. This is the reason that I feel the words 'church' and 'religion' have become perverted and therefore have lost their true meaning.

reply to post by Wertdagf

I fail to see any purpose to intercede in the arguments done on the previous page yet it is from this reply that I make these comments. Remember you can only argue with an idiot, this is a general statement to anyone who wishes to conduct such a futile endeavor and not a personal insult to anyone by any means.

Arguing over who is right and who is wrong is futile because in reality there is no right and wrong.

Science is based on facts and therefore can not be wrong.
Facts are what they are.
Theism is simply a theory of our creator.
As such a theory is neither right nor wrong, it is a Theory.
Theories are that which have never been nor ever will be factual.
A theory is destroyed when it has been proven to be a fact, it then becomes a Fact.
This is the true separation between science and religion, or body and spirit.
I have said before that math is the only thing that can truly ever be wrong.
An incorrect sum is found to be incorrect.
In this case we can then believe that one is wrong yet in this case we are then right.

Just keep in mind that "You can never be wrong unless you believe you're wrong in which case you're right".

reply posted on 22-1-2010 @ 08:06 AM by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by randyvs
You are an example of an atheist of the worst kind.

You believe in every possibility of a God.

In fact you know there should be a God.
But by your own decision have taken him out of the game.

I must admit that I don't understand a word of this. From the baseball analogy to the claim that I am "mixed". I have no idea what you're trying to say with the first half of your post.

But since it seems to contradict the beliefs that I've stated, I'm going to go with me knowing my own beliefs better than you do.

The purpose of this thread was to question my beliefs, which I think is a healthy thing for everyone to do. In the course of this thread, I found that what I originally suspected my beliefs to be, held firm.