The Belief in Things not Proven

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Yes. But in our daily life, when we're not being all spiritual, we HAVE to have beliefs. I believe my car is in the driveway so that when I get ready to go somewhere, I can use it to get there. I mean.... We need belief.

No, no beliefs...No Limitations!! says Tayesin running away with fingers in the ears!!

Seriously, I think everyone is too scared to live even one day without holding one Belief as being factual. It takes a lot of effort to move passed Belief, but it is well worth the ride into clarity.

"When we're not being all spiritual" is a pointer to look at. I understand you to maybe think that being spiritual is something we choose to do in thought and action? As in the efforts you put in to be more spiritual? Those are choices we can make, or we can just be ourselves, do our practices to raise our awareness further but simply be who you feel you are inside with no Limitations to what that can be.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
But as I said earlier, what I mean by "proven" is that which we can all agree upon as fact. Of course, we can't really prove anything, even if we do all agree on it, but I'm defining it for this discussion. If we can all agree that we are individual human beings, posting on a discussion board here, then I'm going to call that a fact.

For the purpose of this discussion.

Yes, I can agree with Consensus Reality. Everyone is attached to it, believes it, lives it and is limited by it for doing so. All good though for discussion purposes.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I get the zen reference, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about a tree falling in the forest making a noise or not. I think we can agree that, according to physics and the physical world, it would make a noise, whether someone was there to hear it or not.

Dang, I wasn't trying to get all Zen-nie with you. Yes, our Common Sense tells us the tree probably made a loud noise and drowned out the sounds of the birds and rodents that it squashed. Again that is Consensus Reality, the one everyone is Indoctrinated into seeing as the only reality.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I would like very much to integrate the spiritual with the physical. I sometimes wonder if there's some sort of "block" that prevents that from happening...

Yes there is a Block. I call it "Indoctrination". Since you first breathed in this body you were brainwashed into Consensus Reality. It was modelled for you in every aspect of your experience with Family, Education and Media supplying the cues to follow. This defined you, it directed you, it caused you to have certain beliefs about the world around you, and in so doing it prevented you from looking too far outside "the norm" for your culture. All very normal that is.

From my experience, and we are around the same age you and I, there is only one thing that can prevent you from having direct experience of your higher awareness, your spiritual nature, and that thing is what you believe about it all, and yourself. There is where we find the Limitations implaced.

Once you can maintain that experience of connection and awareness at will, through choice, you will feel and know the connections to all things is very real, even moreso than what we were taught was real. In this way we bring the "spiritual" into the "physical", even though it was there all around us to begin with, we just become aware of it and operate within it.

I think in old parlance you are reaching the point in life where "your world" (the personalised perception) is about to unravel, a time when the Indoctrination begins to fall apart at the seams. This is a good thing, although many will tell you at the time that they think you are going crazy.. all good as they are still bound by Indoctrination and its Consensus Reality so they will have no point of reference for where you are standing to observe.

Thank You for the discussion BH, much appreciated.

[edit on 20-1-2010 by Tayesin]

Originally posted by Tayesin
I understand you to maybe think that being spiritual is something we choose to do in thought and action?

Nope. My belief is that we ARE spiritual beings in possession of a body and a mind. Spirituality isn't something we strive to be, it's something we either recognize or not.

I think in old parlance you are reaching the point in life where "your world" (the personalised perception) is about to unravel, a time when the Indoctrination begins to fall apart at the seams.

Did you read the entire thread?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Nope. My belief is that we ARE spiritual beings in possession of a body and a mind. Spirituality isn't something we strive to be, it's something we either recognize or not.

Thanks. I was confused by you saying, "When we're not being all spiritual".

That seems to be a different thought-processing to us being spiritual beings. Was there some confusion going on at the time you wrote that?

Did you read the entire thread?

No I didn't, just picked things up from your reply to my post.

Ok, did some back reading now, phew, this discussion is brilliant.

I believe that I am accountable for everything that occurs in my life. I believe that lying is the greatest 'sin' against myself. I believe that Love is the single most powerful force in existence. I believe that I have absolutely everything I need. I believe that if I Love, Love will come to me. I believe that my purpose here is to contribute to, rather than diminish, the goodwill that exists in the world. I believe that death is nothing to fear. I believe that everything is just exactly as it should be.

This is simply the best account of modified Beliefs I have seen. So it seems as with Theories, which most beliefs are based on, they can be altered when better information comes to light.

May I say that things like what happened after your mother passed, is the larger reality hinting at itself to you. It happens to more and more people each day as we slowly come closer to each personal awakening to the larger reality around us.

This God word is deceptive. I use it in conversation because most people go blank when I speak about the Universe or the Source, etc, so by using "God" we can have a basis on which to discuss matters even if we have different interpretations on what God is.

That this God is not as portrayed by the religions is to me obvious. There is no spiritual man/being that is omnipotent, that enforces any type of egomaniacal system of rules via threats.

What I've experienced is that our Universe, one small bubble in a larger community of bubbleverses has Awareness. It came into being by two other bubbleverses touching, releasing massive amounts of energy, hence the Big Bang. It is like a baby, learning about itself and its abilities through all the portions of itself...Souls.

We humans are small portions of those souls. This we can prove to ourselves with dilligent practice to become more open and aware which will bring us into direct connection with the thing that represents the soul we are while we have these little dream-like physical lives, the higher-self.

When doing so you notice how each "level" of awareness feels and so you get to know how limited human perception and awareness feels by being that here, and at the same time we can enlarge our sense of awareness to far beyond the higher-self levels, into and beyond the Soul levels of awareness back into what we could call Oneness Awareness. The a-typical Enlightenment experience.

As said before, the only thing to prevent you from direct experience of what you are in higher levels of awareness far beyond the limited human scene is what you believe about it all. That is the only block I have ever found in over 35+ years journeying in the other realms.

The reason for life on physical worlds is simply to gain Experience of what is on offer so that this Universe can come to know itself better through us, the tiny atoms within itself.

[edit on 20-1-2010 by Tayesin]

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


You missed certain parts I see............. Rather like where I talked about how I did not know you but offering an interpretation of what people I do know and see doing the same thing..... But I am sure you feel better by going with your rather selective interpretation. Good day sir.

I guess I use the five senses as my litmus test for "Reality." But I would never dismiss anyone else's experiences. I feel comfortable in my own skin and believe we create what we expect. As far as an afterlife, no credible witnesses have come back to tell the tale. My cliche: I'm just happy to be alive.

My beliefs are very similar to your own, I do believe consciousness connects every living thing and I believe this is what people call god, nature, spirit etc. The thing that sets me apart from most religions is that my beliefs lead me to feel that we are all god, there is nothing higher, nothing to bow to, you cannot ask 'god' for things, it isn’t watching out over you it is purely there, a positive and negative, 1 and 0, light and dark. Things like re-incarnation, ghosts I believe are like glitches in the system but imp only 27 so got a few more years of cognitive evolution left to refine my beliefs. I think once we discover the other 70% of the universe which is missing atm re dark matter and energy and once we discover what gravity is and how it works more answers to what life really is will become apparent. The one thing I personally hate is being placed into a category like spiritual atheist, or Christian, or right or left wing, rich or poor, black white, Australian or American, simple fact is im alive my consciousness is special, everyone on this earth, every animal, every plant, every cell, every alien on the other side of the universe shares consciousness or being alive, no difference/or groups just different vehicles for experiencing reality, and then there is the chance that consciousness.

reply to post by concernedcitizan


Could that be because certain people see to it that anyone even saying a word that sounds like spiritualism alongside the word science is made into a pariah while theories about us being nothing more than a giant computer simulation is perfectly fine?

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


Atleast it fits with present evidence.... unlike magical fairy wings that carry your soul to heaven.

O wait its not magical fairy wings...... its a magical genie god that flys around on a cloud and scoops up richeious dead people to heaven.

O wait its not a magical genie god.... you sould gets put in a new body to learn lessons so it can lean to sit under a tree and have no desires.

But wait.... if i cut a chunk out of your brain i can remove your love.... your fear... your hopes and dreams..... i can take away your sight... your speech.... i can take everything you are and carve it away..... strangely this isnt explained in any religious text

FOLLOW ON: outside of our reality, i do believe that our spirit, soul whatever you want to call it cant die like our bodies, i call this logical faith. this is a new thought for me i have only dicovered spirituallity very recently in my life and i believe it is a very important side to all humans, i considered my self an athiest my whole life, but that belief is too cold for me personaly But hey i could be wrong we might be the only living things in the universe, and god might send me to hell because i broke one of his rules and i may spend eternity in burning pain whilst being laughed at by a red half goat half human thing or jesus may come back from the dead save my soul and i get to spend eternity with everything that i want, meh i cant even subsribe to that sacasticaly

reply to post by Wertdagf


Oh rly? You followed me here to say that? Might wish to get those facts straight there budro. And it has been widely documented where people have had parts of their brain removed only to suffer no loss to function.

French doctors are amazed that a 44-year-old civil servant with an abnormally small brain has led a normal life with a slightly lower than normal IQ, according to a report on Physorg.com.

Doctors said the father of two went to the Hopital de la Timone in Marseille with mild weakness in his left leg. He was given a CT scan and an MRI, which showed that his cerebral cavities or ventricles had massively expanded, according a case history to be published in Saturday's Lancet.

"The brain itself, meaning the grey matter and white matter, was completely crushed against the sides of the skull," Dr. Lionel Feuillet told AFP. "The images were most unusual... the brain was virtually absent."

The condition is called Dandy Walker complex and is a genetically sporadic disorder that occurs in one out of every 25,000 live births, mostly in females. Although many with Dandy Walker develop dramatic symptoms from the condition, such as an enlarged skull, jerky muscle movements and problems with the nerves that control the face, the condition also can develop unnoticed.
Doctors believe this man's condition could stem from surgery he had at the age of 6 months, when he suffered hydrocephalus or water on the brain and needed an operation to drain a buildup of spinal fluid.

Subsequent tests have revealed that the man has an IQ of 75, with a verbal IQ of 84 and performance IQ of 70. The bulk of people in society have a minimum IQ of 85.

SOURCE



[edit on 20-1-2010 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


This does not lend ANY evidence to a soul or magical etheric body. Its funny how you fail to see how rare coincidences are used to help lead the masses off a cliff. Your doing a good job helping delude people.

reply to post by Wertdagf


Sure, keep telling yourself that. If it makes you able to sleep at night it's fine with me if you believe that. Good day. Or shall I expect you to be popping up to argue against any of my other responses in other threads?

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


As long as you take the form of a soggy sponge on concepts and ideas.

Ill be there. Somone has to... otherwise all we have is a bunch of yes men

reply to post by Wertdagf


Tis a pity you can't see past your ideological nose.. The problem of the crusader or zealot I guess.

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


I grew one for you to cut off. I was hoping you could, but you hide in the shadows never saying anything other than agree with everyone. The only person that helps is you... it protects you from ever being wrong... or right.

reply to post by Wertdagf


No, actually, I often find myself arguing against the rants of self-righteous zealots like you. And I thought you read my posting history.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
Atleast it fits with present evidence.... unlike magical fairy wings that carry your soul to heaven.

O wait its not magical fairy wings...... its a magical genie god that flys around on a cloud and scoops up richeious dead people to heaven.

O wait its not a magical genie god.... you sould gets put in a new body to learn lessons so it can lean to sit under a tree and have no desires.

But wait.... if i cut a chunk out of your brain i can remove your love.... your fear... your hopes and dreams..... i can take away your sight... your speech.... i can take everything you are and carve it away..... strangely this isnt explained in any religious text

It's a good thing we live in a free speech culture isn't it?

1. The soul is not carried to heaven.

The soul is far too massive to play the role of the dead human awakening back to real life. Only a small portion of the soul becomes incarnate into the dense physical body, just enough to empower and drive the vehicle around in the 3D.

2. The souls gets put no where.

There is no Hierarchy, no ascended masters, no higher-power enforcing anything. That concept is a control drama of the highest order that has been used against humanity in order to insure it does not Awaken to it's real power and therefore to make changes on earth that suit the greater reality.

3. This is what happens after death.

Based only the part of my work that mediates between the living and dead where at the end of session I will take the dead across into the Light. This place where the dead go is found at what Robert Monroe has tagged Focus 27, the highest layer of the astral dimensions and the farthest you can get using the limited astral subtle energy body. To get outside and into Soul levels of awareness you must stop using that astral form and just use journeys in awareness.

Yeah I know it sounds airy-fairy but there are no other suitable words to use to describe this process.

When there, at what I call the arrival zone, I get to see the dead lighten-up which I know means they are beginning to wake-up from the dream that was their physical life in the world. They begin to remember having been to that spot many times over.

There are also many dead who do not make it that far due to being caught up in their own creations based on their Beliefs about themselves and reality. You will find them in a layer of awareness called The Belief-System Territories by those humans who dilligently work at assisting the blind across into clarity.

I like to say that if you have no higher place to stand and observe reality, then you do not have the tools needed to dicsuss it as if you do.

Therefore, it is better to find out for yourself than to constantly make claim of fallacy and make-believe when you do not Know for yourself.

4. There is no subsititute for having the direct experience yourself.

reply to post by Tayesin


At least your a nice change of pace. Its like pulling teeth trying to get watcher to put his veiws into such a form.

This is far to easy to pick apart... so im gonna save these things i see and use them later. I thank you for your honesty.

I know this wont comfort you... but i couldnt try any harder or do anything MORE to see what you think exists

[edit on 20-1-2010 by Wertdagf]

Wonderful thread.


I wish I had written this, but alas, I did not.
www.ebonmusings.org...

Compared to the great vastness of the cosmos, the ocean of deep time, my individual existence is a blip, a bubble in the foam on the surface of a flowing river. I am a momentary arrangement of atoms and molecules - an arrangement that lives and moves, to be sure, an arrangement that thinks, laughs, appreciates beauty, dreams, and loves - but a mere arrangement nonetheless, a transient state, an ephemeral gathering. Soon the blip will go out, the bubble will pop, the arrangement will dissolve, molecular bonds released by entropy. My consciousness will cease. But the molecules that once were me will still exist. The atoms that made up my body - iron, carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, all the heavy elements forged in the crucibles of dying stars - will remain. Liberated from their temporary homes, they will rejoin the rest of the planet, taking new shapes, finding new arrangements, becoming part of other life. I will, in a sense, become merged with everything.

I will be the momentary sparkle of sunlight on the surface of a flowing mountain stream. I will be high in the stratosphere, near that ineffable boundary where life-giving blue fades to violet and black. I will be subducted into the planet's core and join the three hundred million-year cycle of the continental plates. I will be the intense red and yellow of a tree's leaves in autumn, the flash and swoop of a dragonfly's glittering wings, the sleek white bolt of a deer's tail, the brown feathers of a soaring hawk, the silver scales of a leaping fish. I will be in each drop of rain in a storm, each wave in the ocean, each breath of a newborn child. And billions of years from now, when our sun swells and blasts the Earth's atmosphere away, I will be there, streaming away from the charred remnant of the planet into space, to rejoin the stars that gave my atoms birth. In the fullness of time, I will become distributed throughout the entire cosmos. And perhaps some day, innumerable eons from now, on the warm, sandy shore of some inconceivably distant young planet, a molecule that once was part of me will take part in a series of chemical reactions that may ultimately lead to new life - life that will in time leave its primordial sea, climb up onto the beach, and look up at the sky and wonder where it came from.

And the cycle will begin again.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by Tayesin

 

At least your a nice change of pace. Its like pulling teeth trying to get watcher to put his veiws into such a form.

This is far to easy to pick apart... so im gonna save these things i see and use them later. I thank you for your honesty.

I know this wont comfort you... but i couldnt try any harder or do anything MORE to see what you think exists

[edit on 20-1-2010 by Wertdagf]

Thanks for the semi-compliment W.

Always honest W, always, even if it makes me naked. I have no fear.

Please feel free to pick it apart based on any mentally aquired knowledge or theory you have at your disposal.

A single fact remains though that must be considered. And this is, that unless you have direct experience yourself you will have no grounds to even perceive what you argue against. It will be hollow, except for your own enjoyment factor. So please go ahead, I love to see people enjoying themselves.

Comfort is for the feeble. Bah, humbug