The Belief in Things not Proven

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


Well, that's an opinion. Truth and perception can be taken to the extreme, but that's not what I wish to do right now.

If we need to define "fact", we can. A Fact is what we can overwhelmingly agree on as fact. Something that we can actually see, feel, hear, etc., that can be verified by unbiased sources. It is a FACT that I'm typing on my keyboard right now. Granted, I could be in another reality and not typing at all, but just "believing" myself to be typing... but according to my five senses (and yours) and the outcome of my typing (this post), I am typing on a keyboard.

Originally posted by Jazzyguy
You realized that you have a microcosm of your own, now that you've been set free from your yoke, you're free to explore the reality of your choosing within the confine of your own rule (personality).

I know this feeling and while you make complete sense, that's not my area of concern right now. Sure, we can't be sure of anything. Is it all perception? Do we exist? All that is very ethereal, but not what I'm focused on. We FOR SURE can't know that, so in that realm, I will maintain agnosticism.

Originally posted by Solomons
For example there is absolutely no evidence for God/God's hence i don't believe they exist. There is absolutely no evidence of alien life but i do believe aliens exist, you could say a belief in God and Aliens are the same...but the sheer size of the universe and the fact humans and all other animals evolved on earth means the probability is staggeringly high, so i don't think you can compare the two. Hope im making sense.

You absolutely make sense! I, too, believe that the odds of alien life are VERY high. I can't say I KNOW they exist (yet), but the probability is so high, I do believe they exist. The probability of the existence of a single omnipotent Creator and Judge of the Universe? Not so much.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
I am hoping there is a purpose,

Otherwise the experience is pointless.

Interestingly, I don't often wonder about "purpose". I don't feel like I have a purpose here other than to live. If I died today and turned into dirt, my purpose would be fulfilled because I lived my life in the best way I could. It wouldn't feel pointless at all. I think purpose is overrated.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


I starred your post because that seems to be exactly what I have done. I was raised in a VERY religious household and found it difficult to "shed" religious beliefs. I finally did let go of the God story. But I WANT there to be more... I WANT to believe in a spiritual existence of mankind. It makes sense to me that there is a part of us that isn't physical. And it makes sense to me that we are all somehow connected and not just by being the same species. That is the crux of my dilemma... Am I making that up? Possibly.

Does that mean I don't know what I believe as regards a spiritual realm? Perhaps I don't think we can know, so agnostic (the dictionary definition) is more accurate? Perhaps I'm an atheist (one who doesn't believe in God), but a "spiritual agnostic"? LOL Now we're getting somewhere.

Originally posted by seircram
I.e., do you believe that "God" is a humanoid 'either Heaven or Hell' superhuman or do you believe that "God" is the original creator of every thing; that this Prime Creator has no agenda except to allow all that has been created to experience itself and ultimately return to its source?

I believe neither. I don't believe in a (an intelligent) Creator at all. I believe in Nature. The type of "intelligence" that Nature possesses is not the same kind of "intelligence" that we posses. Maybe I should drop the "theist", "atheist", "agnostic" labels altogether and consider myself an Naturalist.

I've never been big on labels, but I find I'm wanting to define my position on this...

Originally posted by unityemissions
I'm agnostic, but spiritual. It sounds like you're not an atheist to me, as you do have beliefs in the supernatural.

But the strict definition of atheist is one who doesn't believe in GOD. That's it. It's a very narrow definition, and doesn't include beliefs in "spirituality" or the supernatural.

Those who claim to know are mixing beliefs and personal experiences with knowledge.

I definitely agree!

As an atheist, one doesn't believe in anything pertaining to a god or the supernatural.

That's your own definition. Not the standardized definition: one who believes that there is no deity. And by that definition, I am certainly an atheist. I don't believe there is a deity.

That's why I'm agnostic

It's the most logical stance. Even some of the greatest minds, once thought to be deeply religious, confessed later in life that they truly know not if there is a God.

That's the crux of my dilemma. I don't want to allow for the possibility of a "God" any more than I want to allow for the possibility of an all-powerful reindeer. It's a story people made up (this is my belief) to explain life and to control people. Someone who is agnostic as regards God is saying that it's possible that there is a God. And I don't believe that.

Last thing: There's no reason to drop the spiritual aspect, just because you aren't sure of an afterlife. Being spiritual is personal. It means (IMHO) you have an understanding that we all root from the same source. We all experience (save the brain damaged) the same emotions. The only belief necessary here, is that the big bang theory is correct. If so, we all root from a singularity, which roots from nothing! Pretty miraculous if you ask me, but not beyond the realm of probability and possibility scientifically. It's just seems to be a miracle because we don't yet understand how the cosmos truly works.

Great paragraph!

reply to post by whaaa


Oh! I have had glimpses of things not proven! Lots of times! That's why it's difficult for me. Do I give up the experiences I had shortly after my mother died as "figments of my imagination"? I have always considered them as communications from her. Do I disallow all the Near Death Experiences that I've read and heard about as "brain fuzz"? More likely, I'll put them in the "possible" category and remain spiritually agnostic.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Take your "indications" just as seriously as you take the chair you are sitting on.

I would love to. But as I described earlier, I can see the line between believing that I'm sitting on this chair and believing that I heard my dead mother's voice. There is a definite line there.

Thank you all so much for helping me with this!

[edit on 1-1-2010 by Benevolent Heretic]

reply to post by Devino

ADD: Stormdancer777, I would like to ask you if there is any spiritual, mythological and/or astrological meaning in your avatar.

Spiritual yes, someone gave me the name many years ago, it's a long story,



I will say it is my interpretation of the renewal of the earth, something we are talking about coincidentally, on another topic.

The dancer, dances a prayer to father sky, the tears of the creator, they fall like rain for the renewal of the planet,

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 023131p://bFriday2009 by Stormdancer777]

www.youtube.com...



[edit on 023131p://bFriday2009 by Stormdancer777]

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

If I died today and turned into dirt, my purpose would be fulfilled because I lived my life in the best way I could. It wouldn't feel pointless at all.

Very true, it is all a cycle, and someday you may be recycled,



That is all we are is dirt,

“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”

“In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.”

“Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?”



[edit on 023131p://bFriday2009 by Stormdancer777]

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Everything can be argued against, sure, you may dismiss those arguments. But, your dismissal doesn't matter and could be argued as shortsightedness. It's ALL belief, even what we call "knowledge" right now. The only distinction is semantic illusion at best.

You're correct, everything could be argued, dismissed and thus argued as futile either way. "Semantic illusion" is redundant by definition and this becomes another circle argument. If our purpose is to argue then this is a great point, but if it is Understanding that we seek then this seems more like a speed bump.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I LOVE hearing your thoughts. It's really helping me to get clear. Thank you again! Devino your last post was an eye-opener!

Thank you, it definitely felt right as I was typing it.

I don't feel like I have a purpose here other than to live. If I died today and turned into dirt, my purpose would be fulfilled because I lived my life in the best way I could.

I believe I have been here, where you are now, and if you look closely you will see that you do have purpose just as you have put it in your own words. The purpose is to exist and to feel. Even if we feel bad, scared or pain it is still far greater than the empty void, FAR FAR greater than the nothingness that was before the creation of thinking beings. Thought creates reality.

I think the most difficult time in my life was when I started to become aware of the Truth. Our sensory perceptions can be incorrect (subject to illusion) and so what do we call "Real"? Everything we see, hear, touch, taste, smell and feel can be a deception, in part or in its entirety, and therefore these can be false. This means we cannot rely on science nor belief nor anything that anyone tells us to be true.
From this pit of despair I read the meditations of Rene Descartes and his famous quote, "I think, therefore I am." and this has since become my foundation. As Descartes put it; Life can be nothing but an illusion like a dream or some trick thought up in the mind of a malevolent being but as long as I can ask the question "what am I" then "I am". If I think then therefore I am even if what I am is nothing more then some dream or a trick thought up by some malevolent creature, either way "I am".

I WANT to believe in a spiritual existence of mankind. It makes sense to me that there is a part of us that isn't physical. And it makes sense to me that we are all somehow connected and not just by being the same species.

I believe you no longer need to WANT this because it is now true for you and me both (thought creates reality). Just your desire to "want" to believe in this idea creates it in its own way. I have also come to this crossroads from a religious (Christian) upbringing and it feels as though you're on the edge of a great chasm yet this is just the first step, there is much more to learn.

What is God?
God is the unmoved mover.
The uncreated creator.
The unseen seer.
"I am that I am. Turn over a rock and you will find me. Split a cord of wood and I am there."

Originally posted byStormdancer777

ADD: Stormdancer777, I would like to ask you if there is any spiritual, mythological and/or astrological meaning in your avatar.

Spiritual yes, someone gave me the name many years ago, it's a long story,

I will say it is my interpretation of the renewal of the earth, something we are talking about coincidentally, on another topic.

The dancer, dances a prayer to father sky, the tears of the creator, they fall like rain for the renewal of the planet,

I have read stories about the Native American myths from the Hoh to the Hopi to the Maya that speak of a great event. Some call it prophecy, I see it as history yet perhaps there is a cycle and thus they both are true.

The pouring of "the tears of the creator" remind me of Aquarius, the life giving water that cleanses the Earth. The costume the dancer is wearing (the great Thunderbird?), the lightning (creator of the Grand Canyon?) and the connection to Father sky and the tears of the creator (the great flood?) all have great meaning in these stories that I have read. This, along with your name, is a long story indeed and a very good one I think.



reply to post by Stormdancer777

I feel as though I'm being drawn to the area of the Colorado basin, as in the backdrop of the video you linked, and I have yet to understand why. I've read that the Hopi are descendants from the Maya as well as the Anasazi who also have come from the Maya. I don't know if this is true but I feel a strong connection between what I have been learning about these people and the spiritual path I am on.

[edit on 1/2/2010 by Devino]

Originally posted by Devino
... if you look closely you will see that you do have purpose just as you have put it in your own words.

Yes, I agree. Being and experiencing IS my purpose (more details below). What I wanted to say in that post was that I don't feel it's necessary for each of us to have a "special purpose", like Mother Teresa or Ghandi. But the phrase "special purpose" reminded me of the Steve Martin movie, "The Jerk" and so I left it at "purpose".

Full Circle

I realized that I cannot discount all Things Not Proven, which is what I think I was trying to do in the beginning. I was lumping all things not proven into the same category. But the line is not as clear as that. Because of indications, probabilities and desires to believe.

Here are SOME things I believe that have not been proven. These are from a list of "Things I Believe" that I made a long time ago, and still believe:

I believe that I am accountable for everything that occurs in my life.
I believe that lying is the greatest 'sin' against myself.
I believe that Love is the single most powerful force in existence.
I believe that I have absolutely everything I need.
I believe that if I Love, Love will come to me.
I believe that my purpose here is to contribute to, rather than diminish, the goodwill that exists in the world.
I believe that death is nothing to fear.
I believe that everything is just exactly as it should be.

So, for me to cast aside all things not proven, I would end up with a sterile, purely mechanical existence with no faith in anything... How terrible (for me).

These beliefs in 'things not proven' are based on Indications, Probabilities and Desire. So I am free to believe in anything of which I experience indications, figure high probabilities, or desire to believe.

God (conventional) is not one of those things. And at this time, an intelligent Creator of ANY kind is not one of those things. I personally don't think that the existence of something is an indication that there was an intelligent Creator behind it. It's certainly possible that there was once or is some kind of intelligent Creator, but since I have no indication of it and I have no reason to believe that everything requires a Divine Creator (my parents created me) I can honestly say that I don't believe in a Creator or Deity of any kind.

Possibilities

I will say that it's POSSIBLE that a God exists. Even the conventional one. That doesn't make me agnostic. Anything is possible. It's possible I'm not sitting in this chair right now. But I strongly believe that I am. So, the existence of God is one of many possibilities. But indications, probabilities and desire, not possibilities, are what contribute to my belief system.

The First Law of Thermodynamics

The fact that energy can be changed from one form to another, but cannot be created or destroyed, lends to my belief in an existence after death (and before life). I can't look at a person (or a dog) and not believe that there's some form of energy that makes up our whole. When our bodies die, what happens to the energy that made up the "life"? I believe it MUST still exist.

Secondly, it cannot be CREATED. As far as we know, it's always there. It always has been... No one or nothing created it.

So, what I'm doing here is coming full circle. My beliefs remain the same as they were in the first post of this thread.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I don't believe in God, but I do believe in a spiritual realm. I believe that we all have souls that are non-physical and that continue to exist after the physical body dies...

But this thread and some fantastic discussions with my husband, have been vital contributions to my exploration and questioning of my beliefs, which I think we should all do now and then.

Thank you again!

Um. Surely you see the obvious logically fallacious argument you just made. Just because an idea is agreed upon to be true ,even widely it, doesn't make it neccessarily true and thusly not a fact. And no I have absolutely no way of knowing you are doing what you claim except your word and perhaps the result which does NOT necessarily mean your claim is true. Perhaps you dictated it via voice recognition software? To name just one of the more plausible possibilities. And then there is the problem of sensory interpretation being filtered by one's viewpoints and preconceptions. The subject of that link in my signiture, interesting reading if you're up to it.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

My advice. Screw labels. Locking one's self into a catagory is lazy amongst other thing. And since most often labels end up dictating instead of explaining. You know "I am this. So I must this.".


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Surely you see the obvious logically fallacious argument you just made. Just because an idea is agreed upon to be true ,even widely it, doesn't make it neccessarily true and thusly not a fact.

I didn't make that argument. What I said is: "A Fact is what we can overwhelmingly agree on as fact. Something that we can actually see, feel, hear, etc., that can be verified by unbiased sources." Not being in this room, you cannot see, hear me typing. However, if you and several other people were in this room with me, I don't doubt we would overwhelmingly agree that I am, in fact, typing on this keyboard.

In fact, the idea of God is widely agreed upon and I don't believe it is fact. So, I do not hold with your assertion.

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
My advice. Screw labels.

As I have said, I'm not big on labels. It's the beliefs that I was questioning and my own truth that I'm after. The fact that some of my beliefs have labels makes it easier to talk about. For example, it's much easier to say that I'm an atheist than to say that I don't believe in an intelligent, all-knowing, all-powerful being that created all that is and judges us based on our behavior and thoughts. MUCH easier.

Locking one's self into a catagory is lazy amongst other thing. And since most often labels end up dictating instead of explaining. You know "I am this. So I must this.".

You're preaching to the choir on that one.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I feel quite confident that for the vast majority of human knowledge, a prerequisite was a belief in 'things not proven'.

[edit on 2-1-2010 by loam]

reply to post by Devino

I feel as though I'm being drawn to the area of the Colorado basin, as in the backdrop of the video you linked, and I have yet to understand why. I've read that the Hopi are descendants from the Maya as well as the Anasazi who also have come from the Maya. I don't know if this is true but I feel a strong connection between what I have been learning about these people and the spiritual path I am on.

Very good,I have few words,

the path, that is what comes to mind.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Yes, I agree. Being and experiencing IS my purpose (more details below). What I wanted to say in that post was that I don't feel it's necessary for each of us to have a "special purpose", like Mother Teresa or Ghandi. But the phrase "special purpose" reminded me of the Steve Martin movie, "The Jerk" and so I left it at "purpose".

OK, I understand your perspective now. Remember that thought creates reality so you can become Mother Teresa, Gandhi or even Jesus if that is what you want. The teachings of Jesus shows us that these extremes are not necessary, all that is needed is for us to be a little like these beautiful people.

A small flame will light up a dark room and many small flames will light up the sky.

...man is not as he could be, not as he should be; that man contains within himself the spark of divinity; that his destiny and proper task is to kindle that spark into a flame.

External content from Serpent in the Sky.

I believe that I am accountable for everything that occurs in my life.
I believe that lying is the greatest 'sin' against myself.
I believe that Love is the single most powerful force in existence.
I believe that I have absolutely everything I need.
I believe that if I Love, Love will come to me.
I believe that my purpose here is to contribute to, rather than diminish, the goodwill that exists in the world.
I believe that death is nothing to fear.
I believe that everything is just exactly as it should be.

I agree with these things except for fear, this may be somewhat ambiguous. Fear is a natural response and is important for life. Fear is an emotional tool that is used for survival but when it is used to control people it is false.
I also think that you have everything you need, except for maybe your thermos, all you need is your thermos.

God (conventional) is not one of those things. And at this time, an intelligent Creator of ANY kind is not one of those things. I personally don't think that the existence of something is an indication that there was an intelligent Creator behind it. It's certainly possible that there was once or is some kind of intelligent Creator, but since I have no indication of it and I have no reason to believe that everything requires a Divine Creator (my parents created me) I can honestly say that I don't believe in a Creator or Deity of any kind.

I don't want to get caught up in a mis-definition of intelligent design so I will assume this means God. I think it is a deception to make up different words to mask the intended meaning like this making the whole argument false. I realize that this is not your argument nor are these your words so I am questioning the purpose of those that created the name "Intelligent Design".
I have a belief in God because God is one of those things not provable, to prove God as fact would be to kill the belief in same.

Take a close look at the germination of a seed or the conception of an animal, these are examples of God in action and science cannot explain how this simple looking process works, scientifically it should be impossible. For me personally this is my idea of the point where God comes out of the nothing and into existence.

The fact that energy can be changed from one form to another, but cannot be created or destroyed, lends to my belief in an existence after death (and before life).

This is a profound perspective I think. When I talk to those about existence after death I get the same old argument but when I bring up existence before life the argument stalls. Add in the "in between" part we call life and a comment that we could dismiss this small and almost insignificant part and claim that existence doesn't exist at all and the argument falls apart. This is a futile circle argument by the way and is intended for a no resolve situation to show the error in the original argument against existence after death.

Originally posted by Devino
... you can become Mother Teresa, Gandhi or even Jesus if that is what you want.

Oh, I agree. If I wanted to. The possibilities are limited only by one's thoughts.

I agree with these things except for fear, this may be somewhat ambiguous. Fear is a natural response and is important for life. Fear is an emotional tool that is used for survival but when it is used to control people it is false.

I don't have any problem with fear and I agree it is necessary for survival. What I mean when I say that death is nothing to fear is that I believe death is just a passing from one place to the next. It's not The End or something bad. I watched my mother die and it was one of the most wonderful experiences of my life that I shall always remember.

This is a Musical PODcast I made about the experience of my mother's death. Final Moments

I also think that you have everything you need, except for maybe your thermos, all you need is your thermos.

And maybe this lamp...

I think it is a deception to make up different words to mask the intended meaning like this making the whole argument false.

This is an interesting point. My husband, while not believing in the conventional God, still says he believes in "God". He just has his own meaning for that word and is comfortable saying it. I am not. And we have determined that the reason I'm uncomfortable with it is because I am rebelling against my upbringing, in which conventional religion and the wrathful, angry God played a HUGE part. My brain simply cannot use that word for what I believe in. It would be like using the word "maggots" when I meant food.

Another short PODcast made nearly 5 years ago about my thoughts on "God". It was great to listen to again...

Why I Don't Believe in God PODcast

I am questioning the purpose of those that created the name "Intelligent Design".

I agree. It's like a sneaky way to make science and religion into the same thing. Or to explain religion in scientific terms. Why even TRY to make one into the other when they are two different (but compatible) concepts?

Take a close look at the germination of a seed or the conception of an animal, these are examples of God in action and science cannot explain how this simple looking process works, scientifically it should be impossible.

To me, this is the "miracle" of nature. Just because we haven't yet explained something scientifically, doesn't mean there is no scientific explanation (or other explanation, for that matter). A miracle is just something that hasn't yet been explained.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
What I mean when I say that death is nothing to fear is that I believe death is just a passing from one place to the next. It's not The End or something bad.

Even though I understand this concept and believe in it I still feel fear and anger by death. Odd thing is I feel stronger in this regard to the death of animals than I do with people. These are difficult emotions to accept. I think it has to do with being empathetic with those that are dying and the stark realization of coming back to this reality. I have done this many times and the feeling of coming back is cold and painful and I have a habit of reliving this feeling over and over. For this reason I have a very strong faith. There is a heaven, even if there is no heaven I will make one for us all when I die!

I also think that you have everything you need, except for maybe your thermos, all you need is your thermos.

And maybe this lamp...

LOL This is a standing joke here and has smoothed over many arguments that end with the quote, "I'm out of here, I don't need you! All I need is my thermos."

This is an interesting point. My husband, while not believing in the conventional God, still says he believes in "God". He just has his own meaning for that word and is comfortable saying it. I am not. And we have determined that the reason I'm uncomfortable with it is because I am rebelling against my upbringing, in which conventional religion and the wrathful, angry God played a HUGE part. My brain simply cannot use that word for what I believe in. It would be like using the word "maggots" when I meant food.

I find your feelings about this interesting as well as familiar, I have had the same feelings myself. I believe the problem is in the word "evangelical" which means to preach your personal belief to others, they call it "spreading the word". Originally someone's personal beliefs were preached (pushed) upon you and now you are rebelling back and the pain is in the understanding that both are wrong. This is a problem I still have today but I don't get nearly as mad about the hypocrisy as I used to.

This problem was compounded dramatically as I was learning about ancient astrology and myths that lived in the culture of many civilizations. Far too much of this ancient knowledge was destroyed due to fear by the Catholic church and the pain I felt was so great that I had to stop reading about our history. This is still going on today and it most definitely is impeding science.

I consider these words to be blasphemous; Evangelical, Exalted and Anointed ones (especially in self proclamation) and proclaiming ones self a Prophet or Messiah. All men are created equal!
When Jesus was asked by his accusers, the Jewish Council or Clergy, "Are you the Messiah, the prophetic one?" Jesus replied, "What do the people say that I am? That is what I am." Subsequently the translated meaning for Satan is "The accuser" or one that makes accusations, especially false ones at that.

Another short PODcast made nearly 5 years ago about my thoughts on "God". It was great to listen to again...

"What the (Bleep) Do We Know!" and "The Secret" are great videos. Here is a wonderful lecture about The Gnostic Gospels that has helped me to better understand all of this.
Oh, and by the way music is powerful magic and its true potential is not yet known by us.

A miracle is just something that hasn't yet been explained.

I consider magic as science not yet known and a miracle as Divine. In science we can look closer at things and learn how they work but with every correct answer come many more questions. Science is knowledge and is finite, Understanding is Divine and infinite.

Here is something I wrote some time ago.

Understanding

In academics there are students and there are teachers both working with each other and for each other so they may create an opportunity to understand our place in the Universe.

Professing to have knowledge can only remove an opportunity for understanding and preaching this knowledge is an attempt to remove any opportunity from benefiting anyone else.

Knowledge is finite, it is eventually forgotten and it can be false. Knowledge is often used to manipulate others through the way it is taught. Knowledge is power making knowledge the deception and power an illusion. In order to gain power people must believe knowledge to be true and give up that which is far more valuable.

Understanding is Divine. Understanding can not be taught, forgotten, used to control others nor can it ever be false. Each of us must find Understanding in our own way and the only way to impede Understanding is by denying it from ourselves. Understanding is the path towards Truth and Truth will set you free.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Um which is a fallacious argument. A thing call be widely agreed upon as a "fact" and still not be true thusly not making it a fact.

In fact, the idea of God is widely agreed upon and I don't believe it is fact. So, I do not hold with your assertion.

Actually I am sorry but you do. It simply means you are selective as to what you accept as "fact" and don't just follow any "widely believed" thing, instead only following the one that suites you. Which is a good thing, but, I would argue not good enough.

As I have said, I'm not big on labels. It's the beliefs that I was questioning and my own truth that I'm after. The fact that some of my beliefs have labels makes it easier to talk about. For example, it's much easier to say that I'm an atheist than to say that I don't believe in an intelligent, all-knowing, all-powerful being that created all that is and judges us based on our behavior and thoughts. MUCH easier.

I either haven't encountered you very much or paid much attention when I have so I will just say this. I have heard this often from those who claim to mostly dislike labels who then run to defend said label tooth and nail. Which is contradictory at best. Don't know if that's you but just worth noting. Rather like those non-conformists who do nothing but conform exclusively to the inverse of what the "conformists" *in English, they only do the opposite of what the "conformists" do which is rather silly if you ask me* do and love to tell everyone who they aren't conforming.

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


Thank you for your amateur internet analysis of me based only on this thread. Thanks for telling me what I believe and how I think. After 52 years, I would have thought that I could have figured that out on my own, but no... I needed an anonymous internet stranger to sort out my thoughts Really... your talents are quite amazing!

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Go for it. Drop those beliefs like hot rocks, and let clarity begin.

Seriously, all beliefs are limitations. Knowledge is gained through direct experience of the self, with no preconceptions. As my old teacher used to say, "Practice as if naked."

What is proven is also subjective too. If you were not a witness to something then you do not know if it is real or not despite the many who say it is. Most people take their word for it and Believe what was said of the Proof.

If you stood by the window and saw a car drive down the street, how can you know if it really exists once it is out of your sight?

Spirituality is a weird one isn't it? I mean, here we all are thinking "Spiritual" is something we should gain, work hard to achieve, disprove, prove, or simply believe, and yet we Do Not See that it is not a Separate thing. It is all things.

Funny that, "spiritual" being everything you can see, smell, touch, taste, hear, and Intuit instead of being separate to everything else. I mean who woulda thunk it?

Originally posted by Tayesin
Seriously, all beliefs are limitations.

Yes. But in our daily life, when we're not being all spiritual, we HAVE to have beliefs. I believe my car is in the driveway so that when I get ready to go somewhere, I can use it to get there. I mean.... We need belief.

What is proven is also subjective too.

Indeed. But as I said earlier, what I mean by "proven" is that which we can all agree upon as fact. Of course, we can't really prove anything, even if we do all agree on it, but I'm defining it for this discussion. If we can all agree that we are individual human beings, posting on a discussion board here, then I'm going to call that a fact. For the purpose of this discussion.

If you stood by the window and saw a car drive down the street, how can you know if it really exists once it is out of your sight?

I get the zen reference, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about a tree falling in the forest making a noise or not. I think we can agree that, according to physics and the physical world, it would make a noise, whether someone was there to hear it or not.

Funny that, "spiritual" being everything you can see, smell, touch, taste, hear, and Intuit instead of being separate to everything else. I mean who woulda thunk it?

I would like very much to integrate the spiritual with the physical. I sometimes wonder if there's some sort of "block" that prevents that from happening...