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The Trinity is not real, nor is it logical!!!!!!!!

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posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 05:52 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by oliveoil
You may be able to read in 4 languages the the NWT which I consider a corrupt sectarian paraphrase, (and you are good at it) However, simple logic and Biblical theology are not your strong points.


sorry but no. i quote from the king james. so im not sure where your attack of the NWT was solicited.

attacking me wont change what the bible says.

how about an exercise in simple logic...

john 5:[30] I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Logical inquiry 1 - if jesus is god and god is jesus, wouldnt they have one will and not two?

[31] If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
[36] But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Logical inquiry 2 - if jesus is god and god is jesus, how is it that the father is a separate witness? (law 101, you cant be a witness in your own case)

[37] And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Logical inquiry 3 - How is it that gos is telling people that they cannot see god when he is sitting right in front of them.

now go ahead and explain to me how crazy and illogical i am for believing that christ is a separate and subordinate "son of god"


Miriam you say you read the kjv what denomination are you if you don't mind me asking.




posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 06:02 PM
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Originally posted by oliveoil

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by oliveoil
You may be able to read in 4 languages the the NWT which I consider a corrupt sectarian paraphrase, (and you are good at it) However, simple logic and Biblical theology are not your strong points.


sorry but no. i quote from the king james. so im not sure where your attack of the NWT was solicited.

attacking me wont change what the bible says.

how about an exercise in simple logic...

john 5:[30] I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Logical inquiry 1 - if jesus is god and god is jesus, wouldnt they have one will and not two?

[31] If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
[36] But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Logical inquiry 2 - if jesus is god and god is jesus, how is it that the father is a separate witness? (law 101, you cant be a witness in your own case)

[37] And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Logical inquiry 3 - How is it that gos is telling people that they cannot see god when he is sitting right in front of them.

now go ahead and explain to me how crazy and illogical i am for believing that christ is a separate and subordinate "son of god"


Miriam you say you read the kjv what denomination are you if you don't mind me asking.


ill make you a deal, answer my logic questions and i will share with you what denomination i am.



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 06:16 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 

LOL

I already know what denomination you are and you already know what my answers will be. So lets just stop wasting every ones time here and save it for those who truly want to understand. obviously you don't.



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 06:45 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Neo__
I have to agree with oliveoil here. The Three are found in One and the One reveals the Three.

You wouldn't say that the past, present and future were individually "imposters" of the concept we know as "time". Together, and only together, do past, present and future make up time. Yet we find no problem referring to a "time past" or "some time in the future".

The trinity is part of what makes up our physical world. Without positive, negative and neutral you could not make up a physical atom.

The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are religious icons of these Forces of Nature.


you arent talking about forces. we are talking about a person. GOD is a person. he has emotions and he thinks.

the analogies make no sense. whether you are talking about "time" or "water" none explain how god is three different people at the same time.

and while we are on the subject of truth, doesnt god set that standard? would a bible which is his revelation to mankind about himself set the standard?

i have in previous threads shown that the bible does not support such a confusing theory as the trinity. in fact it abhores it.


Actually I am talking about forces here and not a personified facsimile. In other words I don't view God a literal 'person' sitting on cloud somewhere, external to His creation and doling out forgiveness to an "elect" of blind faithfuls.

To me, what the scientist calls "energy" the religious and spiritual wo/man calls "God". The terms are interchangeable. Scientists are pantheists by definition. Whether they admit it or not they hold to the doctrine that God, if He truly does exist, must be the Universe in total. Everything from the Big Bang started out as ONE. All matter and even time itself originated from ONE. The atheist Richard Dawkins describes pantheism as "materialism on steroids". The author of the Books of Acts describes as 'Him Whom We Live And Move And Have Our Being'. Is this not pantheism? See wiki definition. See also www.pantheism.net...

Panantheisms on the other hand, views the Universe also as the physical manifestation of the body of God but not the totality of God. In other words, God transcends the physical universe while still being a part of Itself. Different from pantheism which states that the universe is God in totality.

"Closer is He than breathing, and nearer than hands and feet" is how Alfred Tennyson describes God in his poem "The Higher Pantheism". See wiki definition of panantheism and see also www.panentheism.com... ,which is a pictorial representation of Atheism vs Pantheism vs Theism vs Panentheism.

 


Just as there are three forms of water, e.g. liquid, gaseous (clouds) and solids (ice), so are there are three aspects of fire:

ELECTRIC FIRE, or SPIRIT
1st Person - Father, Life, Will, Purpose, Positive energy.

SOLAR FIRE, or SOUL
2nd Person - Son, Consciousness, Love-Wisdom, Equilibrized energy.

FIRE BY FRICTION (Body or Matter)
3rd Person - Holy Spirit, Form, Active Intelligence, Negative energy.

"God is a consuming fire"
- Hebrews 12:28-29

A 'consuming fire' to me sounds much like electricity. Could it be that our Universe is Electrical at it's very foundation?

If you find the theory of the trinity confusing then don't believe it. I'm sure it doesn't really matter in the larger scheme of things. I suspect, however, that your confusion arises from the dogmatic belief that Jesus and God and One and the same, i.e. that Jesus is the "One and only Son of God". And to be quite honest, I can't blame you for being confused. This is, with all due respect, one of the most ridiculous doctrines the church has ever come up. But I digress...



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 06:07 AM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
LOL

I already know what denomination you are and you already know what my answers will be. So lets just stop wasting every ones time here and save it for those who truly want to understand. obviously you don't.


then why ask the question? and i know the answer. you are trying to detract attention from the points given because you cant answer them. so you figure hey, if i can draw attention to her sect, then maybe she'll look bad and go away.

problem is im nondenominational. im not a JW as you think.

you challenged my logic. i refuted. its not wasting anyones time to answer those questions.

if the trinity is truth, then you have nothing to worry about. it will stand any challenge.

unfortunately, it has more holes in it than swiss cheese.

in a court case a person CANNOT be thier own witness. to prove something they need a second witness. jesus was using this analogy to prove a point. why would he use something so straight forward, so simple if it essentially wasnt true?

how can the father be a second witness if jesus in essense WAS god?

he cant. and moreover god cannot lie.

the father is a second witness because jesus is not GOD. rather jesus is a separate entity, created by god, taught by god, sent by god.

1 tim 2:[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

again, how is my logic lacking?

mediator - one that mediates between parties at variance (m-w.com)
mediate - 1 : occupying a middle position
2 a : acting through an intervening agency b : exhibiting indirect causation, connection, or relation (m-w.com)

how can jesus mediate a variance between god and mankind if he is god?

would it be fair if you went to court for a case you knew you were guilty of and the judge was also your lawyer?

does that sound logical to you?



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 06:09 AM
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Originally posted by Neo__
If you find the theory of the trinity confusing then don't believe it. I'm sure it doesn't really matter in the larger scheme of things. I suspect, however, that your confusion arises from the dogmatic belief that Jesus and God and One and the same, i.e. that Jesus is the "One and only Son of God". And to be quite honest, I can't blame you for being confused. This is, with all due respect, one of the most ridiculous doctrines the church has ever come up. But I digress...


i dont belief jesus and god are the same person



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 11:17 AM
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The concept that the man Jesus and God were the one and the same came out of verses like the John 10-30, where he quotes Jesus as saying "I and my father are one".

Jesus became one with his father. Kind of like two tuning forks at two ends of a table. If no other vibrational influences intervene, the one fork will begin to vibrate to the same pitch as other. Or another analogy is with a body water. If the water calms down to a perfect stillness it will mirror the sky around it. It can then be difficult to discern between which is the image and which is the real Source of the image. This analogy is reinforced when one remembers that it was written that man was created in the image of God. It's up to man to mirror that image perfectly.



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 01:33 PM
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Back in ancient times where they did not have instant communication, the king's representative to different lands would be expected to be treated as if he was the king. Jesus represented God to men and if he was treated with disrespect, then they were disrespecting God.

This is very serious business, how you treat the prophets of God, and Jesus was very mindful of this and spoke about it often because he loved the people he was sent to save and did not want them to foolishly condemn themselves by their treatment of him.


[edit on 2-1-2010 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by Neo__
The concept that the man Jesus and God were the one and the same came out of verses like the John 10-30, where he quotes Jesus as saying "I and my father are one".


which jesus further explains

john 17:[22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
[23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 01:43 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Neo__
If you find the theory of the trinity confusing then don't believe it. I'm sure it doesn't really matter in the larger scheme of things. I suspect, however, that your confusion arises from the dogmatic belief that Jesus and God and One and the same, i.e. that Jesus is the "One and only Son of God". And to be quite honest, I can't blame you for being confused. This is, with all due respect, one of the most ridiculous doctrines the church has ever come up. But I digress...


i dont belief jesus and god are the same person


Wouldn't they have to be? come on now. Everyone is giving you reasons why they are, but you just keep saying I don't believe. Ok if you don't believe what the Bible says then, Go listen to another group of people that support your belief. The only two denominations who support such an idea are the JWs and the Mormons. I don't know what one is worse.



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 01:44 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
Back in ancient times where they did not have instant communication, the king's representative to different lands would be expected to be treated as if he was the king. Jesus represented God to men and if he was treated with disrespect, then they were disrespecting God.

This is very serious business, how you treat the prophets of God, and Jesus was very mindful of this and spoke about it often because he loved the people he was sent to save and did not want them to foolishly condemn themselves by their treatment of him.


2 cor 5:[20] Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

matt 25: [31] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[35] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
[36] Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
[37] Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
[38] When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
[39] Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
[40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
[41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[42] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
[43] I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
[44] Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
[45] Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
[46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 01:51 PM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
Wouldn't they have to be? come on now. Everyone is giving you reasons why they are, but you just keep saying I don't believe. Ok if you don't believe what the Bible says then, Go listen to another group of people that support your belief. The only two denominations who support such an idea are the JWs and the Mormons. I don't know what one is worse.


where? where is anyone giving reasons?

all ive seen is analogies and metaphors to water and souls.

noone is posting scriptures except for me! lol

you have yet to answer any of my questions, or cite a shred of scriptural proof and im the one who should leave?

please...



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 02:01 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by oliveoil
Wouldn't they have to be? come on now. Everyone is giving you reasons why they are, but you just keep saying I don't believe. Ok if you don't believe what the Bible says then, Go listen to another group of people that support your belief. The only two denominations who support such an idea are the JWs and the Mormons. I don't know what one is worse.


where? where is anyone giving reasons?

all ive seen is analogies and metaphors to water and souls.

noone is posting scriptures except for me! lol

you have yet to answer any of my questions, or cite a shred of scriptural proof and im the one who should leave?

please...



Okay for my entertainment, Post just one question and I will answer. You can then tell me why I'm wrong then I will tell you why your wrong. sounds good. Okay what is your question? please make it simple, for I am sick with the flu.



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 02:09 PM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
Okay for my entertainment, Post just one question and I will answer. You can then tell me why I'm wrong then I will tell you why your wrong. sounds good. Okay what is your question? please make it simple, for I am sick with the flu.


wow... you side-stepped the entire conversation and ignore every single talking point. that is amazing.



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by oliveoil
Okay for my entertainment, Post just one question and I will answer. You can then tell me why I'm wrong then I will tell you why your wrong. sounds good. Okay what is your question? please make it simple, for I am sick with the flu.


wow... you side-stepped the entire conversation and ignore every single talking point. that is amazing.


Its no excuse but I'm on meds right now and am not thinking clear, so If you would like me to answer a question please post one, as I am not gonna go though them. I will answer anyone you choose.



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 02:30 PM
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how about this, ill scroll up and post the information again and you reply to whatever questions you want to. sound good?


----------------------------------------------
how about an exercise in simple logic...

john 5:[30] I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Logical inquiry 1 - if jesus is god and god is jesus, wouldnt they have one will and not two?

[31] If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
[36] But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Logical inquiry 2 - if jesus is god and god is jesus, how is it that the father is a separate witness? (law 101, you cant be a witness in your own case)

[37] And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Logical inquiry 3 - How is it that gos is telling people that they cannot see god when he is sitting right in front of them.

now go ahead and explain to me how crazy and illogical i am for believing that christ is a separate and subordinate "son of god"

---------------------------------------------

in a court case a person CANNOT be thier own witness. to prove something they need a second witness. jesus was using this analogy to prove a point. why would he use something so straight forward, so simple if it essentially wasnt true?

how can the father be a second witness if jesus in essense WAS god?

he cant. and moreover god cannot lie.

the father is a second witness because jesus is not GOD. rather jesus is a separate entity, created by god, taught by god, sent by god.

1 tim 2:[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

again, how is my logic lacking?

mediator - one that mediates between parties at variance (m-w.com)
mediate - 1 : occupying a middle position
2 a : acting through an intervening agency b : exhibiting indirect causation, connection, or relation (m-w.com)

how can jesus mediate a variance between god and mankind if he is god?

would it be fair if you went to court for a case you knew you were guilty of and the judge was also your lawyer?

does that sound logical to you?



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 03:18 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 



There is an Eastern church model and a western Church model. One, that of the west,
is the old familiar 'triangle'. From that model we are given to understand that the
Trinity is one God in three Persons. Fine. But it emphasizes the distinct but equal
Persons, whereas the Eastern model is like a straight line God, Son, Holy Spirit,
it emphasizes the oneness of the three, but not as clear on the three being equal.


Is the Triune God Scriptural? In Luke's Act of the Apostles there is an account of
the execution in Jerusalem of the first Christian martyr, Stephen who was accused
of using blasphemous language against Moses and God, against this holy place and
the Law. In a vision just before his own death "Stephen, filled with the Holy Spirit,
gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at God's right hand.
'I can see heaven thrown open,' he said, 'and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God"
But Stephen does not see a 'triangle'. The Holy Spirit is at his side, in Stephen himself.
The Holy Spirit is not a third party, but God's personal closeness to man. God himself
is manifest through Christ in the Spirit.




BTW I am the Lord God, the Lord is one...does not contradict the Trinity, for the Trinity is
one God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 03:58 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 



again, how is my logic lacking?


Your cherry picking verses and making them conform to your own ideological view without any regards as to the content of the bible as a whole.

Jesus is God in human form. its as simple as that.I have already explained the nature of man, the nature of Jesus, and the nature of God. Your answer is there.

The Bible is more than black and white, Its a breathing living multidimensional book which is meant for us to think and contemplate its content. Your smart, Im sure you can figure this out.



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 04:03 PM
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Originally posted by rileyw
reply to post by miriam0566
 



There is an Eastern church model and a western Church model. One, that of the west,
is the old familiar 'triangle'. From that model we are given to understand that the
Trinity is one God in three Persons. Fine. But it emphasizes the distinct but equal
Persons, whereas the Eastern model is like a straight line God, Son, Holy Spirit,
it emphasizes the oneness of the three, but not as clear on the three being equal.


Is the Triune God Scriptural? In Luke's Act of the Apostles there is an account of
the execution in Jerusalem of the first Christian martyr, Stephen who was accused
of using blasphemous language against Moses and God, against this holy place and
the Law. In a vision just before his own death "Stephen, filled with the Holy Spirit,
gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at God's right hand.
'I can see heaven thrown open,' he said, 'and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God"
But Stephen does not see a 'triangle'. The Holy Spirit is at his side, in Stephen himself.
The Holy Spirit is not a third party, but God's personal closeness to man. God himself
is manifest through Christ in the Spirit.




BTW I am the Lord God, the Lord is one...does not contradict the Trinity, for the Trinity is
one God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.



No your wrong, The Bible speaks of the Holy Ghost as a person. and he is also called God. a little FYI.



posted on Jan, 2 2010 @ 04:18 PM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by miriam0566
 



again, how is my logic lacking?


Your cherry picking verses and making them conform to your own ideological view without any regards as to the content of the bible as a whole.

Jesus is God in human form. its as simple as that.I have already explained the nature of man, the nature of Jesus, and the nature of God. Your answer is there.


show me the scripture. just one scripture that says jesus is GOD in human form.



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