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The Trinity is not real, nor is it logical!!!!!!!!

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posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 09:21 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Gazrok
Think about the concept of gods with "avatars", i.e. fragmented essence of a god, sent to Earth, to manifest in some way. The manifestation could be as simple as a whisper on the wind or as complex as a human being. Some of the entity's essence would still reside in "Heaven", but it is still one and the same.


many religion's have this concept yes. the bible however does not. especially when it comes to jesus.

1 john 4:[3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

if you look further into this passage, john was talking about certain christians that were claiming that jesus did not come in the flesh but instead used a fleshly representation or avatar as you put it. they thought that jesus was still in heaven while his fleshly body walked the earth.

john was correcting them. a fact that trinitarians seem to choose to ignore


Hi miriam ,I was just about to reply to your original post but had to stop here first. Are you saying that those how believe in a trinity do not believe that Christ existed in the flesh.
BTW ,happy new year




posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
Are you saying that those how believe in a trinity do not believe that Christ existed in the flesh.


depends really on your definition of the trinity.

you mentioned earlier that you believe GOD, jesus and the Holy Spirit to be 3 distinct individuals that share the same attributes. this is not technically the trinity. mainly because the Athanasian Creed which outlines the trinity (quite repetitively) that they are three YET one.

there was a reason for this. if a christian was to believe they there was three separate gods who are all coequal and worthy of worship, then it conflicts directly with several passages in the old and new testiment that there is one GOD (Jehovah).

christianity and judism are both monotheistic religion. One GOD. so important was this concept that its even mentioned as one of the 10 prinicpal commandments.

the authors of the Athanasian Creed and of the trinity doctrine in general understood this conflict all too well. they knew that bringing the trinity into a monothesitic religion was in direct conflict.

thus the trinity "mystery" was born.

if anyone were to challenge the doctrine that logically pointing out that the bible is talking about 3 seperate people/things, the priest can simply say they are one. when asked how that makes sense, the priest can respond "its a mystery"

this is why people like jesusinthetruth say things like "Why is it illogical? Because your human mind which is limited cannot fathom it?"

it doesnt make sense.

anyway back to the point. because of the universal oness of GOD and his three parts, this means that jesus was not separate but was god.

this means that he was 2 separate places at the same time (god in heaven and jesus on earth). but that is not what the bible teaches. jesus came to earth in the flesh. he was human. not half and half.

we know this because the ransom was paid. perfect man for perfect man. not prefect man for half man half god.

we know also that jesus was dead for three days (eccl 9:5,10) and was ressurrected a spirit and then ascended to heaven. all of which is pointless if a part of him was already in spirit form in heaven.

so no, those who hold to the trinity in pure form do not believe that jesus came in the flesh



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 10:03 AM
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many religion's have this concept yes. the bible however does not. especially when it comes to jesus.

1 john 4:[3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

if you look further into this passage, john was talking about certain christians that were claiming that jesus did not come in the flesh but instead used a fleshly representation or avatar as you put it. they thought that jesus was still in heaven while his fleshly body walked the earth.

john was correcting them. a fact that trinitarians seem to choose to ignore


All a matter of interpretation....one could argue that God (not Jesus) fragmented his essence in the form of infusing it with a mortal Jesus. Therefore, Jesus was not in Heaven (God was), but that the essence of God was in Jesus.... The very claim of Jesus' death supports an earthly shell...for to claim otherwise, is to state that the deity could "die" and isn't eternal. And, if Jesus was indeed God (vs. simply containing a fraction of his divine essence), then what real sacrifice was made? In order for the sacrifice to MEAN something, you'd have to accept Jesus was human, as well as divine. The human quality is necessary for true sacrifice, otherwise it's just a dog and pony show...


we know also that jesus was dead for three days (eccl 9:5,10) and was ressurrected a spirit and then ascended to heaven. all of which is pointless if a part of him was already in spirit form in heaven.


Ahh, but you then have the problem of the earthly body...unless of course, the leap is made to it simply transforming into the spirit and ascending. Of course, there are the claims Joseph of Arimethea was his uncle, so since it was his land, how hard would it have been to move the body? A lot of questions, and no way to verify... But then, that's where faith comes into play, for good or ill....

[edit on 1-1-2010 by Gazrok]



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 10:13 AM
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There are a few thing that you should know first before you can interpretate what the trinity is. That is what we are, what Jesus was/is, and what God is.

We as humans consist of a spirit a body and a soul.

Humans are finite and not all knowing and we die, that is the matter we are constructed of dies. Our soul and spirit, which is our life principle is not of matter and lives on.

God Is infinite and is omniscient, and is spirit. He is not constructed of matter and therefore does not die.

Jesus, you could say was part human, thus being born of a virgin and consisting of a body,(which can die) soul and spirit. And part God, thus being pure spirit, omniscient, omnipresent, and eternal.

Point being that humans are finite and die.The human soul continues but are not omniscient, omnipresent, and eternal ( God can take you out whenever he wants)

Jesus' as a human also dies and his soul continues. however, unlike humans he is omniscient, omnipresent, and eternal.Problem is that you cant have two omniscient, omnipresent, and eternal beings thus being the father and the son. Therefore they are one.the same.He in the Father and the Father in he.

So why did Jesus call God father? First of all, on earth he was not equal to God. Spirit yes, body no.
One of the main reasons he came here was to teach. One of the things he taught was how to pray and who they should direct their prayer to.
If he had said pray to me, he would have been put to death immediately.He taught there is only one father and we are all his children and Jesus was showing them this.

As far as him praying to himself. He was most likely thinking and meditating amongst himself.This is not that unusual.I do it all the time.

I hope this sheds a little light on your thought process.


then what real sacrifice was made? In order for the sacrifice to MEAN something, you'd have to accept Jesus was human, as well as divine

Haven't got there yet but this is true, Thanks
[edit on 1-1-2010 by oliveoil]

[edit on 1-1-2010 by oliveoil]



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 10:34 AM
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Originally posted by Gazrok
All a matter of interpretation....one could argue that God (not Jesus) fragmented his essence in the form of infusing it with a mortal Jesus. Therefore, Jesus was not in Heaven (God was), but that the essence of God was in Jesus.... The very claim of Jesus' death supports an earthly shell...for to claim otherwise, is to state that the deity could "die" and isn't eternal. And, if Jesus was indeed God (vs. simply containing a fraction of his divine essence), then what real sacrifice was made? In order for the sacrifice to MEAN something, you'd have to accept Jesus was human, as well as divine. The human quality is necessary for true sacrifice, otherwise it's just a dog and pony show...


its a matter of interpretation because that is what you want it to be.

the bible is crystal clear on the subject.

1 - jesus never claimed to be god. in fact the opposite is true. jesus always deferred glory to his father. so there is no reason to enter the hyphothetical realm supposing how the trinity exists. it doesnt.

2 - jesus was 100% human. the scriptures say that he "emptied" himself and became as man (phil 2:7). the word rendered empty (ἐκένωσεν) means to make of no effect, no reputation, void. he WAS a spirit. but he gave that up to be human.

and you are right, he had to be human for the sacrifice to mean something, but also because the price of the ransom was a perfect man (adam). adam was not half man half god. he was human 100%



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 10:43 AM
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You guys can go back and forth all day, But if you really want to learn why "someone" came up with the idea of the trinity you must first look at what the bible says about man and what he is.Jesus and what he is, And God and what he is. Oh and I almost forgot the Holy Ghost. Until then, I have other fish to fry LOL peace and happy New year.



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 10:46 AM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
We as humans consist of a spirit a body and a soul.

Humans are finite and not all knowing and we die, that is the matter we are constructed of dies. Our soul and spirit, which is our life principle is not of matter and lives on.


can you provide scriptures that confirm this belief?


God Is infinite and is omniscient, and is spirit. He is not constructed of matter and therefore does not die.

Jesus, you could say was part human, thus being born of a virgin and consisting of a body,(which can die) soul and spirit. And part God, thus being pure spirit, omniscient, omnipresent, and eternal.


satan isnt constructed of matter, he is spirit. yet the bible in several places says that he will be destroyed.


Jesus' as a human also dies and his soul continues. however, unlike humans he is omniscient, omnipresent, and eternal.Problem is that you cant have two omniscient, omnipresent, and eternal beings thus being the father and the son. Therefore they are one.the same.He in the Father and the Father in he.


so.... adam sins, his body dies but his soul lives on (im guessing the serpent was right to say they woulnt die)

jesus comes to die for our sins, but he doesnt die because hi soul continues....

am i understanding this correctly?


So why did Jesus call God father? First of all, on earth he was not equal to God. Spirit yes, body no.
One of the main reasons he came here was to teach. One of the things he taught was how to pray and who they should direct their prayer to.
If he had said pray to me, he would have been put to death immediately.He taught there is only one father and we are all his children and Jesus was showing them this.

As far as him praying to himself. He was most likely thinking and meditating amongst himself.This is not that unusual.I do it all the time.


matt 26:[39] And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

jesus knows he is about to be put to death. so he prays... alone...

im sorry but that does not sound like meditating. that sounds like he is talking to someone else. note even that he talks of 2 wills not one. 'nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.'



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 10:49 AM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
You guys can go back and forth all day, But if you really want to learn why "someone" came up with the idea of the trinity you must first look at what the bible says about man and what he is.Jesus and what he is, And God and what he is. Oh and I almost forgot the Holy Ghost. Until then, I have other fish to fry LOL peace and happy New year.


i have read the bible exhaustively in 4 languages for many years. its not there.

want to see where the trinity came from? ill give you a hint.

babylon.



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 11:18 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by oliveoil
You guys can go back and forth all day, But if you really want to learn why "someone" came up with the idea of the trinity you must first look at what the bible says about man and what he is.Jesus and what he is, And God and what he is. Oh and I almost forgot the Holy Ghost. Until then, I have other fish to fry LOL peace and happy New year.


i have read the bible exhaustively in 4 languages for many years. its not there.

want to see where the trinity came from? ill give you a hint.

babylon.





You may be able to read in 4 languages the the NWT which I consider a corrupt sectarian paraphrase, (and you are good at it) However, simple logic and Biblical theology are not your strong points.



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 12:50 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


For clarity purposes can you tell us which four languages, let me guess.

English, Spanish, Greek, Hebrew, please correct me if I am wrong.



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
You may be able to read in 4 languages the the NWT which I consider a corrupt sectarian paraphrase, (and you are good at it) However, simple logic and Biblical theology are not your strong points.


sorry but no. i quote from the king james. so im not sure where your attack of the NWT was solicited.

attacking me wont change what the bible says.

how about an exercise in simple logic...

john 5:[30] I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Logical inquiry 1 - if jesus is god and god is jesus, wouldnt they have one will and not two?

[31] If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
[36] But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Logical inquiry 2 - if jesus is god and god is jesus, how is it that the father is a separate witness? (law 101, you cant be a witness in your own case)

[37] And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Logical inquiry 3 - How is it that gos is telling people that they cannot see god when he is sitting right in front of them.

now go ahead and explain to me how crazy and illogical i am for believing that christ is a separate and subordinate "son of god"



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by miriam0566
 


For clarity purposes can you tell us which four languages, let me guess.

English, Spanish, Greek, Hebrew, please correct me if I am wrong.


yup

hebrew is my weak spot. im still not fluent



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 03:54 PM
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It is logic. The holy spirit/Ghost is the spirit of God running through the "paranormal world" going to be for specific purpose. This is what force it is to come. If you believe in Ghost and spirits and the paranormal than you have to believe in the holy spirit. (unless you're not christian) anyways. I'm so sorry but sitting here and defending islam is obviously a different direction. Again. christians are so perscutated in this thread. Go oliveoil



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 03:56 PM
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I am body, soul and spirit, a trinty; just like Him who created me yet ONE... So are you... Deal with it...



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 03:57 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566


1 - jesus never claimed to be god. in fact the opposite is true. jesus always deferred glory to his father. so there is no reason to enter the hyphothetical realm supposing how the trinity exists. it doesnt.

2 - jesus was 100% human. the scriptures say that he "emptied" himself and became as man (phil 2:7). the word rendered empty (ἐκένωσεν) means to make of no effect, no reputation, void. he WAS a spirit. but he gave that up to be human.

and you are right, he had to be human for the sacrifice to mean something, but also because the price of the ransom was a perfect man (adam). adam was not half man half god. he was human 100%


1: Peter said that jesus was the son of God. He spoke to his father as a clear path and an example for mankind and what to do. Christ was humbled enough that he didn't want the credit that God was creating for him.

I don't see anything wrong with the other example to be honest. just an opinion



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 04:17 PM
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Originally posted by Jordan River
1: Peter said that jesus was the son of God. He spoke to his father as a clear path and an example for mankind and what to do. Christ was humbled enough that he didn't want the credit that God was creating for him.

I don't see anything wrong with the other example to be honest. just an opinion


im sorry, i dont understand what you mean...



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Jordan River
1: Peter said that jesus was the son of God. He spoke to his father as a clear path and an example for mankind and what to do. Christ was humbled enough that he didn't want the credit that God was creating for him.

I don't see anything wrong with the other example to be honest. just an opinion


im sorry, i dont understand what you mean...


peter said that jesus was the son of God and christ confirmed this. Christ spoke to his father to give "US" an example how we should treat God. Christ didn't want to have ANY GLORY. he was to glorify God. He didn't have pride like us



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 04:41 PM
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Originally posted by Selahobed
I am body, soul and spirit, a trinty; just like Him who created me yet ONE... So are you... Deal with it...


so which is you?

if the body dies, and you go on living, how are you a trinity?

doesnt that mean that the body wasnt nessesary?

doesnt it mean that you arent the body?

why does everyone get so touchy and emotional about this?

"deal with it"? ill deal with it when you give me a reason to.



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 04:44 PM
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stop thinking about it. the brain can't much fathom this world much less others



posted on Jan, 1 2010 @ 04:52 PM
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reply to post by Jordan River
 


Bro stop wasting your breath... G-d KNOWS who are HIS... Its the Holy Spirits job to bring men to repentance and not yours.. Is G-ds arm soo shortened it cannot save??? Is G-d so pathetic that He cant save His own without you??? Of course He can!! And does!!...

However you are placing yourself as a judge.. You are not... Your job is to show who G-d is; how you LOVE... then the Holy Spirit of G-d will do the rest.. AND TEACH... NOT pastors but HIM... The Holy Spirit that resides in us also TEACHES about Yeshua, and brings us into ALL truth.... Let G-d be G-d bro..... Turn your compassion to showing love to the folks in your community; those that; clothe the naked, visit those who are sick and in prison, who feed the poor and speak justice for the orphan and the widow... Concern yourself with that!! That is G-ds heart... And He told us that time and again...

Remember; "they will know you by your love." that is the WHOLE law of G-d... And the fact that i have to say that to you??? I HAVE to wonder!!

Wake up!! He stands at the door and knocks... And; "many of UNDERSTANDING shall fall, to be refined, and be made white, for the time of the end is for an appointed time."

Meditate on those things bro,

Your sis

Kendra xxxx

[edit on 043131p://f53Friday by Selahobed]

[edit on 043131p://f56Friday by Selahobed]




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