Chronology of Creation in the Bible... it doesn't start in Genesis!

So there's no further confusion, here is the full and accurate chronology with the verses quoted as well.... What I originally posted was a rough draft.... sort of a picture of what I was getting at.... that Genesis is not the "beginning".

John 1:1-2
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.

Psalm 90:2
2 Before the mountains were brought forth,
Or ever You had formed the earth and the world,
Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

Genesis 1:1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Isaiah 14:12-17
12 “ How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:

‘ I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 “ Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:

‘ Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’

Ezekiel 28:13-18
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 “ You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
16 “ By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
17 “ Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.
18 “ You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.

Genesis 1:2
2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Jeremiah 4:23-26
23 I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void;
And the heavens, they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled,
And all the hills moved back and forth.
25 I beheld, and indeed there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were broken down
At the presence of the LORD,
By His fierce anger.

Isaiah 45:18
18 For thus says the LORD,
Who created the heavens,
Who is God,
Who formed the earth and made it,
Who has established it,
Who did not create it in vain,
Who formed it to be inhabited:

“ I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Genesis 1:3-31
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.”
7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;
15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so.
16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.
17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth,
18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.
19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.”
21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.”
23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.
30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so.
31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 2:1-4
1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
4 This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Thank yo for that clarification. I must admit, I have not had contact with Bro. Reese since the mid 80's. I can't speak for HIM OR Jeremiah, but IMO the estate of the earth before creation and the estate of the earth after God's wrath falls are being compared. Jeremiah sees God's wrath so thruoughly destroying Isreal that it will look like the precreation earth. The passage also continues clearly referencing to Isreal.

Now, I must ask, if you believe in recreation, then do you believe there was a prehuman face that God exterminated? Why did he destroy them, were they also sinners? Was the devil instrumemtal in their demise? Why did He not offer them salvation as He did us? Do you believe ancient civilizations are pre-flood or pre-recreation? What speculations do you have about this destroyed culture? Did they make a mess so unfixable that God just "threw in the towel" with them? Looking forward to your response.

Originally posted by Locoman8
***snip***
In the Genesis account, darkness was separated from the light and the light was called day and the dark was called night. This means there were reorganizations of the earth's atmosphere to allow sunlight to shine through once again and allow eyes to see stars once again. Water was already on earth. The firmament.... or atmosphere separated the water of the earth and water of the sky. this represents the vapors taken up to the sky by clouds to create rain. No space water dude!

The firmament is referred to as "Heaven".

Dude!

And Genesis does not talk about recreation. Some people just try to lend credence to their theories by stating that.

Genesis
7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven.

Another part of Genesis
14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;
15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so.
16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.
17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth,

Get your "facts" straight.

reply to post by Locoman8


Well I agree with parts of your post I have issue's with some parts as to time line.

Here is why.

Job 1: 6-12

6-7 One day when the angels came to report to God, Satan, who was the Designated Accuser, came along with them. God singled out Satan and said, "What have you been up to?"
Satan answered God, "Going here and there, checking things out on earth."
8 God said to Satan, "Have you noticed my friend Job? There's no one quite like him—honest and true to his word, totally devoted to God and hating evil."
9-10 Satan retorted, "So do you think Job does all that out of the sheer goodness of his heart? Why, no one ever had it so good! You pamper him like a pet, make sure nothing bad ever happens to him or his family or his possessions, bless everything he does—he can't lose!
11 "But what do you think would happen if you reached down and took away everything that is his? He'd curse you right to your face, that's what."
12 God replied, "We'll see. Go ahead—do what you want with all that is his. Just don't hurt him." Then Satan left the presence of God.

This happened somewhere between 1657-1473 BCE. The point is Satan still had access to heaven during this point, the war in heaven hadn't yet took place. Fast forward to the book of Revelation

Revelation 12: 7-12

7Then war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels went forth to battle with the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought.
8But they were defeated, and there was no room found for them in heaven any longer.
9And the huge dragon was cast down and out--that age-old serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, he who is the seducer (deceiver) of all humanity the world over; he was forced out and down to the earth, and his angels were flung out along with him.
10Then I heard a strong (loud) voice in heaven, saying, Now it has come--the salvation and the power and the kingdom (the dominion, the reign) of our God, and the power (the sovereignty, the authority) of His Christ (the Messiah); for the accuser of our brethren, he who keeps bringing before our God charges against them day and night, has been cast out!
11And they have overcome (conquered) him by means of the blood of the Lamb and by the utterance of their testimony, for they did not love and cling to life even when faced with death [holding their lives cheap till they had to die for their witnessing].
12Therefore be glad (exult), O heavens and you that dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in fierce anger (fury), because he knows that he has [only] a short time [left]!

From this with conclude:

1)There was a war in heaven, Satan lost that battle
2)Satan and his demons were evicted form the heavenly realm, and this time they couldn't go back.
3)The residents of heaven are glad their foe is gone, but the earth will have increased trouble as now Satan is forced to focus on them exclusively.
4)Satan only has a relatively short time left in his ability to control the world by this point.
5)This event is the New Heavens 1 Peter 3:13 talks about, the New Earth part for humanity will come later.

13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.

As to the control Satan has of the earth right now, it's at about 90%, thus the nasty mess we find ourselves in especially in the last few decades. God limits Satan so that he cannot exterminate those trying to serve him. But he has a lot of leeway to make mayhem, anybody who visits this board has seen it.

Furthermore the recreation is ahead of us AFTER Satan is jailed into a state of inactivity and non-influence.

Revelation 20: 1-3

1THEN I saw an angel descending from heaven; he was holding the key of the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and a great chain was in his hand. 2And he gripped and overpowered the dragon, that old serpent [of primeval times], who is the devil and Satan, and [securely] bound him for a thousand years.
3Then he hurled him into the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and closed it and sealed it above him, so that he should no longer lead astray and deceive and seduce the nations until the thousand years were at an end. After that he must be liberated for a short time.

[edit on 1-1-2010 by Blue_Jay33]

reply to post by Locoman8


Isaiah 14, again is prophecy about the King of Babylon. He dies in it and his heirs are killed in it. I should point out that Helel says in his heart he will ascend, not that he literally ascends into the Heavens.

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of G-d

Ezekiel 28 is another prophecy, one against the King of Tyre. Verses 1-10 could clearly apply to a man. Verses 13-16 if taken literally could apply to something not human. If it does apply to a nonhuman most likely it would apply to one of the Sarim (Princes), like the Princes of Persia and Greece mentioned in the Book of Daniel. Its very telling that the King of Tyre is called a guardian cherub in Eden, which would imply that the "King" is one of the guardian cherubim from Genesis 3:24.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by Locoman8

 

Isaiah 14, again is prophecy about the King of Babylon. He dies in it and his heirs are killed in it. I should point out that Helel says in his heart he will ascend, not that he literally ascends into the Heavens.

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of G-d

Ezekiel 28 is another prophecy, one against the King of Tyre. Verses 1-10 could clearly apply to a man. Verses 13-16 if taken literally could apply to something not human. If it does apply to a nonhuman most likely it would apply to one of the Sarim (Princes), like the Princes of Persia and Greece mentioned in the Book of Daniel. Its very telling that the King of Tyre is called a guardian cherub in Eden, which would imply that the "King" is one of the guardian cherubim from Genesis 3:24.

Do you not understand that Satan's influence is within the leaders of the world? Satan uses his deception in world leaders. Hitler was considered an "anti-christ" and is said to have been "demon-posessed." When someone is demon-posessed, especially in the days of the Old Testament, they are considered the "devil", "Satan", or "Lucifer." Lucifer was not the literal name of the king of Babylon. "in thine heart" doesn't mean his heart was lifted up. It means that his intentions were within his heart. He spoke through his heart. It's like saying that I thought something in my head.... intentions.... and God knows our thoughts and our heartfelt intentions.

reply to post by Locoman8


I completely agree that powers of darkness influence the nations of the world. The Sarim or Principalities do just that. I think we agree here.

I didn't mean Helel was the literal name of the king of Babylon, but a title as in Bright or Shining. Ben Shachar meaning "Son of Dawn" in the Hebrew.

Shachar in Canaanite/Ugaritic myths is a son of El. He has a twin named Shalem. Shachar is the "Morning Star" in the myth and Shalem is the "Evening Star".

One could translate the name as the "Bright or Shining Son of the Morning Star".

reference: Religion in Ancient Ugarit
www.scribd.com...

I think you misunderstood my point about the heart. I am saying what you are saying, that he thought, contemplated, desired. Helel desires to be the highest like the Little Horn and Abominable king from the Book of Daniel.

So I think here we are in agreement.

reply to post by MikeboydUS


My mistake sir. I was under the impression that you were being critical to what I was saying. Anywho, thanks for your intelligence in this thread.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by Locoman8

 

Well I agree with parts of your post I have issue's with some parts as to time line.

Here is why.

Job 1: 6-12

6-7 One day when the angels came to report to God, Satan, who was the Designated Accuser, came along with them. God singled out Satan and said, "What have you been up to?"
Satan answered God, "Going here and there, checking things out on earth."
8 God said to Satan, "Have you noticed my friend Job? There's no one quite like him—honest and true to his word, totally devoted to God and hating evil."
9-10 Satan retorted, "So do you think Job does all that out of the sheer goodness of his heart? Why, no one ever had it so good! You pamper him like a pet, make sure nothing bad ever happens to him or his family or his possessions, bless everything he does—he can't lose!
11 "But what do you think would happen if you reached down and took away everything that is his? He'd curse you right to your face, that's what."
12 God replied, "We'll see. Go ahead—do what you want with all that is his. Just don't hurt him." Then Satan left the presence of God.

This happened somewhere between 1657-1473 BCE. The point is Satan still had access to heaven during this point, the war in heaven hadn't yet took place. Fast forward to the book of Revelation

I knew you'd have issues providing that your JW background contradictory of what I'm posting. I do respectfully disagree with your understanding of the book of Job in this aspect. Nowhere in that passage is Satan actually said to be in heaven. He is in the presence of God, but God's presence can be shown anywhere, not just heaven. I have no doubt of the dates you provided for the time of Job.

Revelation 12: 7-12

7Then war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels went forth to battle with the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought.
8But they were defeated, and there was no room found for them in heaven any longer.
9And the huge dragon was cast down and out--that age-old serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, he who is the seducer (deceiver) of all humanity the world over; he was forced out and down to the earth, and his angels were flung out along with him.
10Then I heard a strong (loud) voice in heaven, saying, Now it has come--the salvation and the power and the kingdom (the dominion, the reign) of our God, and the power (the sovereignty, the authority) of His Christ (the Messiah); for the accuser of our brethren, he who keeps bringing before our God charges against them day and night, has been cast out!
11And they have overcome (conquered) him by means of the blood of the Lamb and by the utterance of their testimony, for they did not love and cling to life even when faced with death [holding their lives cheap till they had to die for their witnessing].
12Therefore be glad (exult), O heavens and you that dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in fierce anger (fury), because he knows that he has [only] a short time [left]!

From this with conclude:

1)There was a war in heaven, Satan lost that battle
2)Satan and his demons were evicted form the heavenly realm, and this time they couldn't go back.
3)The residents of heaven are glad their foe is gone, but the earth will have increased trouble as now Satan is forced to focus on them exclusively.
4)Satan only has a relatively short time left in his ability to control the world by this point.
5)This event is the New Heavens 1 Peter 3:13 talks about, the New Earth part for humanity will come later.

13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.

No doubt Satan will try and conquor heaven and God's throne before the end. This has not happened yet as it is a prophetic inset in the story flow of revelation. This will set the stage for the great Tribulation when Satan unleashes his fury on mankind.

As to the control Satan has of the earth right now, it's at about 90%, thus the nasty mess we find ourselves in especially in the last few decades. God limits Satan so that he cannot exterminate those trying to serve him. But he has a lot of leeway to make mayhem, anybody who visits this board has seen it.

I agree completely with this assessment. I don't know about the 90% figure but the scripture does state that Satan is the "god of this world" which means he can deceive even the elect while bound on earth.

Furthermore the recreation is ahead of us AFTER Satan is jailed into a state of inactivity and non-influence.

Revelation 20: 1-3

1THEN I saw an angel descending from heaven; he was holding the key of the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and a great chain was in his hand. 2And he gripped and overpowered the dragon, that old serpent [of primeval times], who is the devil and Satan, and [securely] bound him for a thousand years.
3Then he hurled him into the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and closed it and sealed it above him, so that he should no longer lead astray and deceive and seduce the nations until the thousand years were at an end. After that he must be liberated for a short time.

This is not explaining a recreation of an already made, yet desolate earth. This explains the creation of an entirely new planet earth. The first earth is completely destroyed and the new earth is created after the Judgement of Mankind. You are referring to the mellenium of Christ's reign on earth. It is not a re-creation though. It's a rebuilding and resetting of order on the planet... which was not destroyed or void of life after tribulation.... just on the verge of it. New heavens and new earth come after the 1000 year peace on earth and judgement.

You sure do give a good challenge... I'll give you that. And we agree on many fronts. I just have a different view of prophecy than you do I guess.

Also, can you explain to me the gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?

Genesis 1:2 (New King James Version)
2 The earth was[or came to be] without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

The word "was" after the word "earth" in it's hebrew form is also translated as "became" or "came to be". We know God isn't the creator of chaos, voidness, or formlessness. Plus, there was already water on the planet... which must have been part of the initial creation explained in Genesis 1:1.




[edit on 1-1-2010 by Blue_Jay33]

Originally posted by Gumerk
Why would God do that to his own creation that he/she loves?

Because he is a sadist? How would you characterize a parent who tempts their children to do wrong or who makes it extremely difficult for them to make the right decisions and who then sorely punishes them when they fall short of their parents expectations? What are the parents "expectations" in such a scenario?

Getting back to the non-existent one, why did he put the tree of knowledge in the garden and bring it to Adam & Eve's attention? He supposedly knows all things so he knew they would disobey him. Did he want them to sin? Doesn't the NT claim the "Lamb of God" [Jesus] was slain from before the foundation of the world?

El the sadist. Jehovah the drama queen. JeZeus the savior.

reply to post by Locoman8

Also, can you explain to me the gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2?

Genesis 1:1 is everything before God turns his attention to the earth which already existed before Genesis 2, and this is an unknown time frame. From Genesis 2 on he is working on just the earth, also an unknown time frame.
To me there is no gap between the two. The bible doesn't say there is a gap either.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


If there's no gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, then the earth would only be about 6,000 years old. How can you explain that? How did the earth "Become" without form and void if God isn't the creator of desolation?

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by Blue_Jay33

 

If there's no gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, then the earth would only be about 6,000 years old. How can you explain that? How did the earth "Become" without form and void if God isn't the creator of desolation?

No, maybe you misunderstand me, where Genesis 1:1 ends, Genesis 1:2 begins. The earth already exists before Genesis 1:2 perhaps even without an atmosphere, no life, basically a barren hunk of rock not fit for life. Now God would begin to get the already existing planet ready for life. This planet is way older than 6000 years.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Yes except that the earth had life on in prior to Genesis 1:2 and then it became desolate due most-likely to cosmic disturbances like comets or asteroids. I say this because water was already on the planet.... God just needed to make it liveable again.

reply to post by Locoman8


I enjoyed your post Locoman8.

I want to add some more details which you did not mention in your opening post.

Daniel explained some details of Satan's authority when the angel Gabriel was being held up by the Prince of Persia for 21 days. Gabriel needed the help of the great Prince named Michael so that he could be freed from the Prince of Persia. After Gabriel encourages Daniel Gabriel says he has to take off because he see the Prince of Persia and Greece coming after him. Before he leaves he tells Daniel that Michael is the Prince of Daniel's people.

Daniel 10:12-21

Gabriel apparently is no prince and has no power to neutralize the Prince of Persia or Greece. It seems that the King of the Prince of Persia and of Greece is Satan. (Remember Satan offered the kingdoms to Jesus.)
The King of the Prince named Michael is God.

Michael is the Prince of Israel. Michael fought with Israel when they were camped around Jericho. Michael materialized before Joshua, with a drawn sword at his side and told him he was the Prince of the army of YHWH.

Joshua 5:13-15

Satan has multiple Princes with great power and God has one Prince with great power. Strange that a non-Prince angel of God cannot over power one of the Princes of Satan. It must be rules of the Game.

reply to post by lostinspace


Good additions. Of course we should note that Michael is the Archangel... the General of all angels if you will. Gabriel is a high-ranking angel as well but not as high-ranking as Michael. Jesus is creator of all angels as the "Word of God". Just as John 1 says that the Word created all things by the order of the Father. Star for you.

reply to post by Locoman8


Thanks for the star. So what became of Michael after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans? He did not fight for them at that time, like he did before in Joshua's time. Did he hang out with the Christians after that or go back to heaven and wait for orders.

Jude 1:14-15 mentions one detail from the Book of Enoch. The Enoch book mentions Michael numerous times but scholars don't believe it to be inspired. However, I cannot find Jude 1:8 mentioned in the Book of Enoch where Michael the archangel and the Devil are having a disagreement about the body of Moses. I wonder what ancient prophetic book recorded that disagreement? Was Jude mentioning something that just happened in heaven or was he referring to an account right after Moses died? Revelation describes him as having a number of angels under his authority when he battled Satan and his angelsl. Revelation 12:7-9

Michael is only mentioned in Daniel, Jude, Revelation and only hinted at in Joshua. He is mentioned in the Book Book of Enoch the Prophet.

So where is Michael now? Is he waiting for a warrior's call?

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word

that being said it appears before god was there was the word

this is strange to me

Even stranger is that "the word" is often defined as being Jesus. Even the online etymological dictionary agrees with this oddness.

1580s, ]"second person of the Christian Trinity," from Gk. logos "word, speech, discourse,"

Sometimes "the word" is replaced in some translations with "Logos".

Other Eng. formations from logos include logolatry "worship of words, unreasonable regard for words or verbal truth" (1810 in Coleridge); logomachy "fighting about words"

"the word" is also associated with the "seat of the Oracle"

reply to post by lostinspace


Well, in the first letter to the Thessalonians, Paul mentions that the Lord will decend from heaven after a shout from the archangel. In the bible, the only angel mentioned as an "archangel" is Michael so there is reference to Michael shouting as the return of Christ to earth is underway.

1 Thessalonians 4
16- For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of THE archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

So this is referencing Michael at the return of Christ... a future event.

reply to post by Locoman8



This future shout by Michael would imply that no one is in heaven yet. Paul said the dead in union with Christ would rise first and that those living with be taken up in the clouds next. This is all a future event.

Wow! One shout by an angel makes millions of people come out of their graves.

One angel, which could have been Michael, killed 185,000 Assyrian soldiers one night during the reign of king Hezekiah. 2 Kings 19:35

To kill is easier than to make alive, so I am guessing the shout of an archangel makes a more impressive event.