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Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by AnthraAndromda
That is an abuse of Mathematics. Because you still do not have a constant to observe from. No constant, no science. You need alien dna to observe from and prove you are a 99.99% match. The only thing you can prove is that you have unique DNA. That you're DNA does not match 99.99% of other humans. Nothing more, nothing less. FYI, that's the case for every human being.
FYI, I spoke with the mods. They said I did win and that your evidence is falsified and under review.
So yea, don't bother lying. You've already been caught red handed.
Why does the constant show numbers like yours? Why is the FST locked at numbers bellow that Europe has? How can you use math that says you are 99.99% sure to be alien if we have no aliens to compare to and the statistical probability of compatibility is basically zero?
What is an abuse of Math? Bayesian Inference? Or is this all just your under educated, under experienced opinion?
I had some issues figuring out just what, exactly you were talking about with your "constant". It seems that you are having a little trouble separating high school science from real science. In real science, we may sometimes try to discover something that is unknown, when we do, you "constant" can take on some rather "strange" forms. Like this case.
No there is no "known DNA" sample, its not needed, and no there is no property value that has been fixed, per sae. However, there is a constant involved in the protocols for analyzing the samples we collect.
In this case, it is the DNA Primers that are used to determine the actual sequenct of said DNA molecules. The menner in which we analyze the results of the DNA sequencing, The language we use to probe the databases, and extract useful data. These things are constants.
No I don't need alien DNA. Unless we are attempting to determing my exact species. I only need to illustrate that my DNA is very unlikely to occur in a Terrestrial Human, which I think I have done. Does that leave some small amount of "room" for me to be Human? Yes, however, consider the comedy of errors and mutations required to do so. The probabilities of this are astronomicaly small. Actually on the order of my original guess at the probability of an alien being on Earth in the first place ... I place the original odds at 7.0E-15. Thats is about one chance in the population of 1,000 ,000 Earths. And as it turns out, that is also the aproximate probability that I'm Human. Go figure.
No matter how you slice it, no matter how you want it, the probability of me being alien is very high, partially by virtue of the fact that I don't fit into any Human populations. Than there is other data that I have not introduced into this conversation. Personal experience, that while no less valid on a personal level, isn't well suited to a scientific discussion.
Listen, we are working in the real world here, not playing in the classroom, with the schools chemistry set. The real world rules are a bit different. The real world constraints are vastly different. Even your opinion about what ET would be like reflects your lack of experience. Have you ever of this?
Firstly; the individual marker frequencies mean little, you can find these very same markers in other species, and, with the same frequency ranges. So they can't prove "Human".
Secondly; As I have already pointed out, it is the combination of these markers and their corresponding frequency that gives the data substance. Without this combination we have defined nothing except individual markers. You are aware that these markers represent specific substrings within the overall DNA, and that the repeat frequency is how many times that substring repeats? Thus you can see that this is an important property, it goes to the "spelling" of the given genome.
What in the Sam Hill are you going on about FST for? What relevance does the flanking insertation site have to do with any of this? I'm betting, that like me, you have no idea what so ever. At the present we are working with simple DNA sequences, and accepted marker freuqencies.
Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by AnthraAndromda
What is an abuse of Math? Bayesian Inference? Or is this all just your under educated, under experienced opinion?
Probability junior year highschool math.
No. A constant is a constant. And to state real science needs none is an utterly stupid statement.
There is a simple rule. No Constant, no science.
Yes, you do need alien DNA to compare. You cannot claim what you are without it. Without two examples to compare, you are human.
I'm sorry, but, your "constant" simply isn't needed to properly analyze the data. Besides, I did use standard databases with the DNA of 100,000's of humans, so why would you want to have any duplicates of data elements? Or perhaps you want me to say "distinct" in all my queries.
Duplication of data usually skews the results, depending on how many duplicates there are. Hence the ability to add "distinct" to the query. This has been know for longer than you have lived.
I only need alien DNA if I want to find which alien species I am, and then, yes, I would need a sample of that species DNA. But, I'm not trying to identify my species, I'm trying to show that I don't belong to that sub-set of "universal" DNA known as "Human" (specificaly Terrestrial)
Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by AnthraAndromda
Yes, you do need alien DNA to compare. You cannot claim what you are without it. Without two examples to compare, you are human.
Only if you are human. You are assuming aliens even have primers. You are assuming they have DNA at all. You are assuming you know it.
No matter how small. Your DNA is still human. It is still more probable that your DNA is human than something else.
And see how you are changing your claims. Now you are saying there is room for being human. For all purposes, you're caught lying.
See, the thing about claiming you have alien DNA is that you require alien DNA to compare. No matter how alien yours is, it is still more Human than not. All of your genes are human. We are talking about literally a few dozen genes out of millions.
4*10^18 - 5*10^18 TO be exact.
That means out of a conservative 400,000,000,000,000,000 Genes, only a few dozen are odd.
And you are claiming this makes you human?
Are you joking?
Well listen. You have not had experience with designing new types of dna structures and life forms.
In architecture, some of the things we do is explore non-DNA based life forms to build buildings. Using chemical programming to create structures.
Allow me to show you what we made with nothing more than bacon fat, vinegar, and olive oil.
So do me a favor and don't insult me by saying because I'm younger I don't know more. I'll probably learn more in the next 4 years of my life than you have in the whole of your 60.
Life does not need DNA. Life can come about any way it damn well wants. Life can be infinite in its combinations.
The fact is I DO have skills with alien DNA and otherwise. because we are building and designing them right here on Earth now.
You are aware that I used a constant and your same method and got the same results, right? Because that disproves your point.
Also, what do you think the chances are that aliens have the same primers or series of codes? Quite low.
Europe has a FST of 1.2 or so. It can't be put at that level to get good results. plop, there goes your proof.
Again, I am comparing my DNA to 100,00's of Human DNA test results. That will, for the time being, provide all the checks we need.
You really should do some reading, I'm just a software engineer, but, it seem I know a bit more about DNA than you. Your statements about primers here are way off base. And, I am assuming nothing! Aliens have primers, aliens have DNA, with only a few exceptions, and, in a sort of unprovable way, yes I do know a few thing about alien DNA.
Yes, my DNA "looks" Human in many respects, but, as I have already pointed out, the same DNA could easily apply to a Chimpanzee. What you think is uniquely human, simply may not be. You don't know what is uniquely human, so yo assume that if it "looks" human it is. I'll go down to the Dallas Zoo and tell "Bonzo" he is human, a human has proven it and he should get a good attorney and sue for false imprisonment.
Improper notation here. And since when did 1.0E18 only equal millions? By the way, they're not that many genes in the Human genome. Its on the order of 300 million or so.
4*10^18 - 5*10^18 Not including mitochondria DNA and bacteria DNA 20,000 - 25,000 unique genes 2 copies per cell with around 100 trillion human cells in the body
Ahhh, but you are not an architect. You are some kid barely out of highschool, by your own admission. Further, it demonstrates a lack of knowledge of what it that I do. I've already made reference to being a software engineer, but, do you know what we do? There are those who would call, more advanced and experienced software engineers (not unlike me)l Software/data architects. You see that is what we do, we design and determine the structure of applications and the data that supports them.
No, you don't. If it is being built here on Earth, then it is not alien. And the DNA you think you have is still very terrestrial.
Source? I should tell you to take that up with the Research Biologists that originally put these databases together, because, you are saying they don't know what they are doing.
Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by AnthraAndromda
100,000 implies less than 1 million. That's less than 1% of the human race.
You have once again failed in probability and statistics.
Try telling the USDA to pass with only testing 1% of a company's products.
Sorry, I've not failed anything, and it appears that you with your experience handicap aren't doing so well. But, that is something else.
Oh, and the USDA, and several other alphabets get by with that little of actual testing, why do you think they have recalls? Product not tested until after release. Shouldn't happen, but does.
Aliens do not need primers. What if your dna was a tower of silobenzene? Or something similar?
Well, we're not playing "what if" here. And, if my DNA was a tower of silobenzene, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
crap logic. Apes have a 3% difference. You do not. You have the same number of chromosomes and the same number of genes and can therefore mate with humans at the very least artificially.
You are making assumpsions here. You have no evidence that I have number of chromosomes as Humans. And, you have no evidence that I can successfully mate with a Human (something that never happened, despite best efforts, but that too is yet another story).
Which kind of sums up your whole argument; Assumpsions that have no foundation in reality or physical data.
Strawman fallacy. Because I stated a number then reinforced it with more accurate ones.
The human being only has 20,000 unique genes. If you have the whole genes, then that means you have the evolutionary left overs of Earth, further reinforcing that you are human. Sorry, but Roddenberry's parallel Earth theory is not true.
Yes, you tried to back it up, with numbers that were orders of magnitude off if we are talking about Human DNA. Ya know, you could at least try to use conventional notation in your arguments.
I didn't know that Gene had a "parallel Earth Theory". Unfortunately you haven't proven that wrong either. Just because you say something doesn't make it true, not even if you say it a bunch of times.
So then lets do some math
98% of genes do not encode proteins (IE, make us look how we look)
20,000/.02 = 1000000
That means that out of 1 million genes, you are talking about a few dozen.
The math still supports you are human.
Actually I think the math will still support me. Be that as it may, there are a "few dozen" genes that we have examined so far. And within those we have found anomalies. If we expand our search, logic and murphy almost demand that we find more anomalies.
And, unless you are God, who are you to define how anomalous One must be to not be Human? I'm sorry, but that determination is outside your pay grade.
Architect major. We are architects once we enter the program. We don't work for years after education due to state regulation. Understand what you're talking about before you assume.
Sorry, but I do understand what I'm talking about. You are not an archiect ...yet. Once you have completed school, passed all of your state requirements, and, have worked in the field for a year or two, then, you will be an architect. If it makes ya feel any better, it was the same foe me. You see, I do know the professional world. It is hard, and new grads, in my area anyway, are little better than simple programmers/coders.
As for the "constant" you insist upon. You have a source for that requirement?
Also, that "constant" of yours is already there, I've pointed it out to you, its been there all along. Protocol, database.
added: Thanks for the reference to FST. Had you defined that term in the first place (as you should have) this confuaion could have been avoided.
The only issue I see here is that we are not currently working with SNP data and are only considering STR data. Any SNP data is currently unknown as it hasn't been analyzed. Again, these tests can be costly.
[edit on 11-8-2010 by AnthraAndromda]
Sorry, I've not failed anything, and it appears that you with your experience handicap aren't doing so well. But, that is something else. Oh, and the USDA, and several other alphabets get by with that little of actual testing, why do you think they have recalls? Product not tested until after release. Shouldn't happen, but does.
Well, we're not playing "what if" here. And, if my DNA was a tower of silobenzene, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
You are making assumpsions here. You have no evidence that I have number of chromosomes as Humans. And, you have no evidence that I can successfully mate with a Human (something that never happened, despite best efforts, but that too is yet another story). Which kind of sums up your whole argument; Assumpsions that have no foundation in reality or physical data.
Yes, you tried to back it up, with numbers that were orders of magnitude off if we are talking about Human DNA. Ya know, you could at least try to use conventional notation in your arguments. I didn't know that Gene had a "parallel Earth Theory". Unfortunately you haven't proven that wrong either. Just because you say something doesn't make it true, not even if you say it a bunch of times.
Actually I think the math will still support me. Be that as it may, there are a "few dozen" genes that we have examined so far. And within those we have found anomalies. If we expand our search, logic and murphy almost demand that we find more anomalies. And, unless you are God, who are you to define how anomalous One must be to not be Human? I'm sorry, but that determination is outside your pay grade.
Sorry, but I do understand what I'm talking about. You are not an archiect ...yet. Once you have completed school, passed all of your state requirements, and, have worked in the field for a year or two, then, you will be an architect. If it makes ya feel any better, it was the same foe me. You see, I do know the professional world. It is hard, and new grads, in my area anyway, are little better than simple programmers/coders. As for the "constant" you insist upon. You have a source for that requirement? Also, that "constant" of yours is already there, I've pointed it out to you, its been there all along. Protocol, database.
Lets review. You claimed it said you were Indian or Africans. I assumed you were telling the truth and said you were an albino. You claimed you had no albino gene, I ran the tests and it found you to be European, thus ending that discussion. So what you are doing now is basically using your own lies to make more lies. Entangled much? if you are going to make a lie based off your own lie, at least try to be reasonable.
Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by AnthraAndromda
USDA takes heat for that.
And you failed to explain all the questions I've had. You deviate, not answer
If you do not have the same number of chromosomes, you would have been reported in your genetic tests. Not to mention the placement of racial genes would be different, and you would not look human.
I do have foundations for what I am saying. The fact that you have lied. I never got the no matches your website claims nor did I get higher rates for an average human.
The probability that every molecule of the solar system is placed in the same place in another galaxy and that every single molecule for the whole 4.5 billion years of Earth are replicated is ZERO.
You have to know everything as an architect, or you've failed. I am well on my well. And as you can see, this is mere homework for me to learn more. You are dealing with someone whose job is to learn, debate, and philosophize. I will win this discussion always. It's conclusion is dependent upon you leaving, being banned, or giving up and admitting you lied.
You still have not answered my questions.
Why did the Constant show the same, hoe can you make your claim without alien DNA to examine, and why is the FST not Europe's level.
not to mention, how can you make your claim with only a few hundred thousand people to compare and not even 1% of the human population to compare with?
Yes, they certainly do. Which questions would those be. You have said many things, some of which I fealt deserved no resonse. But, if you ask them again, I will reevaluate their merit.
Not neccessarily. The tests I've had done were specific to a defined set of genetic markers. As long as those markers are present, the lab tech has no reason to question anything about the sample. Further, they weren't count chromosomes in either of my tests. People with Downs Syndrome have 24 chromosomes, normal humans have 23. Chimpanzees have 24 chromosomes. Which does a person with Downs look like? There are also other conditions where an otherwise normal looking Human can have 22, or 24 chromosomes. So, even if it was discovered that I have 24 or 25 chromosomes, that, all by itself wouldn't neccessarily make me "look" non human, and I could still express what appear to be normal human genes. Your arguments are like the screen used in a door; full of holes.
I haven't lied. The example you are using was caused by the website changing their display, nothing else. It still reports the same information. What you thought were "hits" were actually the probability of finding a "hit". And, yes, I may have been off by a couple orders of magnitude (E-15 instead of E-13), however with how small these numbers/probabilities are, it still doesn't do your argument any favors.
I would argue this, but only in principal. Given an infinite universe, even that remote possibility must be.
You are a funny child. And, just what do you think I have been doing for 63 yers? Here's a quick little thing. Did this before you were even a twinkle in your fathers eye. See that machine in front of you? You are welcome! I was a member of the development team for the early PCs. Your car, Iwas a member of the development team for the pilot projects at General Motors that lead to the manufacturing techniques used by all auto makers today. (Gaw, robots were stupid then) You aren't the only one who continues to learn, debate, philosophize, grow, and develop. You are far from being the inventor of that.
I'm sorry, but you will have to take that up with the biologists who built the original database. I'm very sure they have valid scientific reasoning. Though, again, what does SNP data have to do with STR data we are considering?
Because thats what is available, frther, it has been shown that even small samples like this are representative of much larger wholes.
Let me be captain obvious here. That's why you're taking a lot of heat for your claims.
Genetic markers that are human. News flash, to have them means you are human.
However small they are, they do not show all humans and are only based on very selective results. We've all but dismissed the claims from that website. So why bother using it as proof?
Also, you did lie. You accused me of moving your racial identity around when you made the claims.
Also fyi, most of what you designed is no longer used. In fact barely anything is. Just as we don't use anything from the first cars of 1920s, we do not use anything from the first computers.
Times change, technology evolves. Seems kind of sad that a 60 million year old civilization would send its agents into commoner jobs and doing nothing.
Most of the computer parts and technology we use today was invented in the last 4 years.
FYI. None of this answered my questions.
So let's begin again. If someone was outside those isolated groups, they WOULD have much lower probability, like yourself.
What you are now saying is that because you have the same dna of a person of multiple backgrounds, you are alien.
Your entire argument is basically based on skin color and facial structure.
To be frank, that has nothing to do with being human. Some people don't even have those genes.
Originally posted by Varemia
I cannot help but wonder. What if he was simply adopted, and his parents raised him to believe they were blood-related? That could explain all the "anomalies."