Originally posted by Lillydale

Interesting. So which aspects of his bipolar disorder excuse his crime, exactly? What do you know about the disorder and his supposed degree of it? What do you know about how it applies to a person's ability to ascertain and understand certain knowledge? I would really like to understand how being bipolar excuses you from blatantly breaking obvious laws.

Not once in my post did i ever claim to be a Doctor.

I know of two people with bi-polar disorder, one of them is a musician and despite being possibly the most talented musician i know, he suffers from agoraphobia, irrationality and paranoia.

The other person is a family member, who swings from being the happiest person i know, to a very sad person and it's not good to witness.

I never said bi-polar excuses you from laws anywhere in my post. Please go and join the back of the queue of all the other people who are putting words into my mouth.

To sum it up:

I do NOT like the death penalty , at the same time i don't like drug smugglers... The answer is, to try them all fairly and squarly and lock them away if they pose a threat to humanity.

If a person is mentally ill or not, they should be analysed anyway to see if they are fit enough to stand trial.

His family said he was mentally ill.

If he was, there would be GP records of it, which I'm sure the foreign office would have bought to light after being asked for assistance by the family.

Guess what though - the Chinese court received no such information in the two years the case has been running.

The guy had 4kg (141 ounces) of heroin on him - as the article rightly states thats enough to kill over 26,000 people - damn near a WMD if you look at it in one perspective.

Anyone being killed is a tradgedy for their family - I can understand that, but the simple fact is that the guy broke the law, in China, and the penalty for such is death.

Their country, their system, their punishment - none of our business

Don't want to get the death penalty in China? Don't smuggle drugs.

Sounds harsh I know, but its true.

The fact is none of us KNOW the facts.
Reportedly he was convicted on a half hour trial.
According to the UK government today, the Chinese would not allow an assessment of his mental health condition either at verdict or prior to execution.
Reportedly he was in a secure hospital when he was given 24hr advance warning of his execution.

What HAS been confirmed is that he was executed by lethal injection and that no UK diplomatic presence or family were allowed to be present.

Now some of this may be BS. He might indeed be as guilty as hell. But aside from whether you agree with the death penalty, due process has to be observed and seen to be observed.
And what we do know about China is that their human rights track record isn't exactly sparkly white.

Personally I find this whole thing abhorrent. I was awake at the time of the scheduled execution and spared a thought for this man and his family.

But hey, this country has a massive trade agreement at stake - let's protest but not too hard.
IMO all that can be done is for the ordinary person to try to boycott Chinese goods.
But China is a big player these days. And we should all be concerned - even those none drug smugglers amongst us.

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Not once in my post did i ever claim to be a Doctor.

No, but you did say -

I suggest you go and educate yourself on the varieties of mental illnesses that plague the human mind, and try and avoid your cartoon-esque imagery of mental people somehow being incapable of thought.

So I assumed this would be something you educated yourself about instead of making some cartoon-esque post. Are you not educated on the matter? Seems a shame to tell others they need to be before they can reply to you about it.

I know of two people with bi-polar disorder, one of them is a musician and despite being possibly the most talented musician i know, he suffers from agoraphobia, irrationality and paranoia.

Then he suffers from more than bi-polar disorder. Not relevant.

The other person is a family member, who swings from being the happiest person i know, to a very sad person and it's not good to witness.

At which point do they forget what is and is not against the law to do?

I never said bi-polar excuses you from laws anywhere in my post. Please go and join the back of the queue of all the other people who are putting words into my mouth.

I am sure you do not want me to quote you again.

To sum it up:

I do NOT like the death penalty , at the same time i don't like drug smugglers... The answer is, to try them all fairly and squarly and lock them away if they pose a threat to humanity.

So what is the problem? He smuggled drugs. He was caught. He was tried fairly under their system.

If a person is mentally ill or not, they should be analysed anyway to see if they are fit enough to stand trial.

Apparently they gave it a good two years.

I guess I am not sure what your point is. Why so arrogantly flaunting the legal benefits of mental illness and telling people what to go learn about if you do not know and even if you did, it would not apply here.

It is a cheerless thing when death takes life but one thing in this unfortunate man’s favour at least is that he will no longer feel the pain of his affliction or know the abject misery of his imprisonment.

People are dying all the time all over the world and in probably more inhuman ways and under more heart wrenching circumstances and yet we will never heard or read of it because there is too much death to choose from. What about the child killed for being a female or the child killed for answering back to his father or the mother killed in front of her children because the dinner was cold?

We of all people know that the world is a black hearted place and this man is just one man who is no longer at the whim of others and what’s more his death, his murder was apparently quick and painless.

Originally posted by Lillydale

So I assumed this would be something you educated yourself about instead of making some cartoon-esque post. Are you not educated on the matter? Seems a shame to tell others they need to be before they can reply to you about it.

It's a little thing called experience.

Then he suffers from more than bi-polar disorder. Not relevant.

Completely relevant, i fail to understand your logic.

At which point do they forget what is and is not against the law to do?

At what point did you twist my words so far that you started imagining a completely different conversation?

Do you even know what 'rationality' means? Try 'irrationality' and then use your imagination.

I am sure you do not want me to quote you again.

I'd rather you quoted me, than put words in my mouth.

So what is the problem? He smuggled drugs. He was caught. He was tried fairly under their system.

Define 'fairly'.

Apparently they gave it a good two years.

and whats the average waiting time for an inamte on death row in china?

I guess I am not sure what your point is. Why so arrogantly flaunting the legal benefits of mental illness and telling people what to go learn about if you do not know and even if you did, it would not apply here.

I'm trying to suggest to people that mental illness is not as black and white as people make out. Yes - some people will jump on the bandwagon and start claiming 'mental illness' but that is why i suggested all inmates get analysed by a professional. But for some members to suggest anyone who uses that in their case is automatically guilty is not exactly fair is it?

Besides, there are a number of issues to discuss here:

The validity of mental health arguements in the various legal systems?

Is it necessary to execute smugglers?

The harsh political climate of the super powers?





[edit on 29-12-2009 by mr-lizard]

Originally posted by mr-lizard

It's a little thing called experience.

Then why did you recoil at my request for your level of knowledge with that snarky "never said I was a doctor" crap for?

Completely relevant, i fail to understand your logic.

I specifically asked about how bipolar disorder would apply in a drug smuggling case. I did not ask how agoraphobia applies in a drug smuggling case. Got it?

At what point did you twist my words so far that you started imagining a completely different conversation?

I am not. What are you trying to say? This man's bipolar disorder should have meant something. You say that because you know about the illness. You are not a doctor so do not ask you about the illness. You know plenty because you have experience. Your experience is a family member. Does this person smuggle drugs and would their bipolar disorder play into that? If not, then shhhhh.

Do you even know what 'rationality' means? Try 'irrationality' and then use your imagination.

We are discussing the word rationality now?

I'd rather you quoted me, than put words in my mouth.

See your post about telling others to educate themselves. I can quote the pertinent parts for you in my next response to what I can predict will be another circular reply but I was hoping you would just flip back and see what you wrote and not make me point out your own words to you.

Define 'fairly'.

I do not have to define 'fairly.' It was not MY system he was tried under. They get to define 'fairly.'

and whats the average waiting time for an inamte on death row in china?

Dont know. Dont care. Two years never turned up this medical diagnosis. How long others wait to die would not change that.

I'm trying to suggest to people that mental illness is not as black and white as people make out. Yes - some people will jump on the bandwagon and start claiming 'mental illness' but that is why i suggested all inmates get analysed by a professional. But for some members to suggest anyone who uses that in their case is automatically guilty is not exactly fair is it?

Right, we are talking about the same thing aren't we? This man did not claim mental illness. He claimed bipolar disorder. Your friends agoraphobia and my friends schizophrenia have nothing to do with this man's case. We can narrow it down to BIPOLAR DISORDER. That is what it is about. That is what you started with. That is what you claim experience with. That is what I am discussing. All other mental illnesses need not apply.

Besides, there are a number of issues to discuss here:

The validity of mental health arguements in the various legal systems?

Certainly but who is it for to discuss?

Is it necessary to execute smugglers?

I do not think it is about necessity but either way, I am not Chinese. It is not my say.

The harsh political climate of the super powers?

I know. The world is a nasty place. There are countries currently killing people in undeclared wars in more than one country. There are nasty things happening everywhere. Good thing we all took some time to worry about the rights of a convicted heroin smuggler.

Originally posted by neformore

Guess what though - the Chinese court received no such information in the two years the case has been running.

There are clear records of him being diagnosed with bi polar disorder in the UK and this was widely reported as well. How can a so called court of justice dispense the death penalty on a person they even suspect to be mentally ill?? That shows their haphazard system of justice where they aim seems to be to make an example for the populace by violence to follow the rules rather than to exercise the truth and dispense justice. Hell, even African republics in all their anarchy at least follow basic English common law. In a country with no rights for its citizens, it is obvious the rights of foreigners seem to them to be ludicrous!

Originally posted by neformore
The guy had 4kg (141 ounces) of heroin on him - as the article rightly states thats enough to kill over 26,000 people - damn near a WMD if you look at it in one perspective.

This is an extreme facetious argument! I imagine you would call a case of whiskey a weapon also right in the same vein? Because anybody who consumes 1-2 bottles of whiskey straight would die too! And a case would have 6 bottles enough to kill 4-6 people! Do they then consider Liquor distributors terrorists in China ?

4kgs of heroin can be just as easily consumed without dying by just 1 person over a long period of time. You can't put up an imaginary casualty figure based on conjecture to prosecute somebody. At least not in countries that actually understand the concept of justice!

Originally posted by neformore
Their country, their system, their punishment - none of our business

Hitler gassed and killed millions in his extermination camps, it was his country, his system and his rules. Does that make it right ??

When china tries a western citizen, the accused is not the only one on trial. The Chinese justice system and the entire Chinese government is on trial as well in the eyes of the world, especially in trials of diplomatic importance. And when they execute a mentally unstable person without even an investigation into his mental status, despite widespread media reports to the same it just demonstrates the backwardness of the Chinese "justice" system and the government in general !



[edit on 29-12-2009 by IAF101]

Originally posted by IAF101
There are clear records of him being diagnosed with bi polar disorder in the UK and this was widely reported as well. How can a so called court of justice dispense the death penalty on a person they even suspect to be mentally ill ?? That shows their haphazard system of justice.

I still do not get it. Can someone please explain how being diagnosed with bipolar disorder would have helped in a UK or US court with this crime?

Originally posted by IAF101


When china tries a western citizen, the accused is not the only one on trial. The Chinese justice system and the entire Chinese government is on trial as well in the eyes of the world, especially in trials of diplomatic importance. And when they execute a mentally unstable person without even an investigation into his mental status, despite widespread media reports to the same it just demonstrates the backwardness of the Chinese "justice" system and the government in general !

SO should all criminals be released to their home country to be tried for a crime? If so, please explain how that is feasible. If not, what would make the difference?

I despair for the human race, when I see the horrific support that the death penatly gets. We are supposed to be an advanced, enlightened civilisation, but we've not gone forward for about 1000 years. Sure, we have some new tech, but mentally, we're still animals. Pure and simple. Barbaric, braindead, animals.

Nobody has the right to take another mans life. As soon as you do that, you are the scum that you're saying the deathrow person is. You are on their level, SCUM. It makes my blood boil. The double standards and utter hypocracy, it's sickening.

This case doesn't supprise me at all. China is hardly known for its leniancy in criminal trials. I mean, the mental hospitals are full up with political prisoners, just because they denounce and stand up against the totalitarian goverment. The prisons are full of people who've done little wrong, other than speak their minds.

I still can't believe people on here, condone this sort of behaviour. Sure, peados and murderes are scum, lock them up for ever so they can't harm anyone else. But killing someone over anything, makes you just as bad as them. Not better, not by a long shot. Shame on all of you who support the death penatly. You're no better than the baying mob, nor the criminal the baying mob lynch.

Originally posted by SteveR
China should not execute any UK/EU citizen. That is an act of war!

We tolerate this why?

as with ANY country.... but you know China are the good guys .. with all the manufacturing of EVERYTHING on the backs of humans, for 5 cents USC a day..

what's china's stance ?? "meh... *yawn*.. right ok .. he's mental, just pop him and get over with it.."

china's advisors.." what about UK/EU? !"

china .." who?? oh them.. yea.... well .. is he dead yet? " .

Originally posted by neformore
His family said he was mentally ill.

....The guy had 4kg (141 ounces) of heroin on him - as the article rightly states thats enough to kill over 26,000 people - damn near a WMD if you look at it in one perspective.

Yes my friend, that's true. But just a couple of packets of paracetamol ( acetaminophen) will kill you too - guaranteed! And it's a much more horrible death than overdosing on heroin.

Most people who take heroin don't die, as they know what dosage they need - just the same as most people who take Tylenol don't die. So saying the amount trafficked by this poor sod was enough to kill 26000 people, needs to be qualified.

Originally posted by Donnie Darko
would it be accurate to say Australians support the death penalty if done abroad, but not if done by Australia?
[edit on 29-12-2009 by Donnie Darko]

You've obviously researched this thoroughly!

How many Australians did you survey before coming to your conclusion? 2, maybe 3?

How many questions did you ask? 0, maybe 0.

I have zero sympathy for anyone caught trying to smuggle drugs through countries that dish out harsh sentences for such crimes. I am not going to simply call the Chinese barbaric, it is their country and their laws after all! Don't like it? Then stay the hell away.

Now, I do not support the death penalty at all, for any crime, but China is not the only country to still have the death penalty, and certainly not the only one to send mentally ill, or very low IQ people to the electric chair or death by lethal injection. Take note USA!