Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too

reply to post by Chett

Actually I don't think people choose to go after vegans all that much, its mostly a response when vegans try to shove it down others throats.
Like you said its a choice.

oh - they do. I said I wasn't sure why just now - but not true - I do know why. It does get shoved down people's throats fairly often

An awful lot of vegans seem closely related to bible thumpers, insisting that their way is the only way.

to be fair (can't win on this one) you should understand their position (also my position). They're opposed to cruelty - it's hard to be only kinda-sorta sometimes opposed to cruelty. Just as it would be difficult to be only kinda-sorta opposed to slavery.

For me this is where the real 'moral' issue lies. Its not in what you choose to eat, or not eat, its in trying to push your ideas on others.
(goes for telling vegans they should eat meat too, the road goes both ways)

so you see - I just preached (a little) even though I don't believe it's useful :-)

it's one of those subjects. This is what the OP wanted to avoid - this kind of discussion - but I don't think it's possible

best we can do is be polite about it

I personally believe people have to decide for themselves - it would do no good whatsoever for me to try and force you to see it my way

I was a pretty hard core carnivore for most of my life. Nobody's opinion influenced me. In the end, I had to see it and understand it for myself - in my own way - in my own time

Meanwhile - I'm still wondering - what is the OP's real point? :-)

Originally posted by passenger
Well, I meant pain in the broadest sense of a chemical reaction. In that sense there is empirical observation of this in action. I don’t mean that plants actually go ‘ouch’ and cry. But they do put off detectable chemical reactions in response to damaging/threatening conditions. This has been documented. In that sense, they are experiencing ‘pain’.

Pain is the transformation of chemical signals into other chemical signals we call pain. Plants dont do this. As another poster stated, its all in the mind. Plants dont have this. They have the same simple chemical reactions we have, minus the transformation into pain signals that animals have.

Not true. Just because they aren’t jumping up and down and screaming doesn’t mean they are not reacting. Various plants will put out noxious chemicals in response to a threat. They will also alter growth patterns eg thicker bark, higher branches, etc. in response to ‘pain’. They also attempt to heal injured areas with sap or similar methods much as we produce cells to form scabs. The plants' responses might not be as fast as our responses but they are still a physical response/movement to a threatening stimulus.

Plants put out chemicals in response to other chemicals. They will alter growth patterns in response to simple stimuli. None of the chemical or physical stimuli are transformed by a plants non-existent brain into non-existent pain.

And sorry, no movement at all.

We also dont produce cells to form scabs. The blood cells exist already. Blood clots from a simple chemical reaction, its exposure to air. This would happen whether your body felt pain or not. Quite similar to plants.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

forgive me - which is it - hypocritical, naive or silly? :-)

Possibly hypocritical. In a sense. But not absolutely, or purposefuly. And I'd rather not start name calling. Please, don't try and bait me.

are you suggesting that the same people who choose not to eat animals because they believe it to be cruel would somehow care less about the suffering of plants if it's true that plants do suffer?

Yes, I'm saying that if animals do indeed fight to survive, or "want" to survive, then how is it any different?

next - forget about cognitive dissonance - where do you stand?

Consuming plants and animals is morally acceptable. That's where I stand. Morally, of course.

you say vegetarians don't realize how "alive" plants really are? that's an accusation of sorts right there - implying that we somehow are a little slow - or less caring than you - because you do understand - and also care

Maybe you should reread that without the preconception that I'm out to attack you....You're so quick to defend your ideology that you've twisted what I've said to make it seem as though I'm out to get you (and all vegetarians/vegans). I'm not.

What I said was:

[I'm] simply suggesting that perhaps many vegetarians don't realize how "alive" plants truly are.

That's not an accusation. If it helps, I can rephrase it. Perhaps many people don't realize how "alive" plants truly are. The difference is, omnivores don't care because they already eat meat, so whether or not they realize is irrelavent.

so - you think eat everything then because it's only fair? or - are you giving up food?

No, and no. I base my diet on nutrition, not political or moral influences.

it becomes a choice between the lesser of two evils I suppose - even if that seems a little arbitrary

It doesn't have to be. But, it's ultimately your choice.

it doesn't have to be what?

It doesn't have to be a choice between the lesser of two evils.

-Dev

Not true. Just because they aren’t jumping up and down and screaming doesn’t mean they are not reacting. Various plants will put out noxious chemicals in response to a threat.

The cells in the plant does that, not the plant as idividual, character or whatever would be one as a whole.

They will also alter growth patterns eg thicker bark, higher branches, etc. in response to ‘pain’.

And where does this pain get proccesed?
Where does it reside since there is no mind?
All you are explaining are chemichal reactions set off by cells designed to do that.

You have to understand that for pain to exist in a place there needs to be a brain, it's where pain happens. If you can find some spot in the middle of the plant where all cells send information to turn the chemicals in to pain then you are right. It's why there is no paint when they put you to sleep befor surgery, because the brain is sleeping deep, sometimes
you wake up in your mind in the middle of the surgery and you feel it, you scream in your mind because your brain is awake and you can feel the pain, but you can't move. It's the best explenation of pain.

There is no evidence to sustain that plants feel pain.


[edit on 28-12-2009 by pepsi78]

reply to post by Chett


I am sorry if you interpreted my post as an attack. This topic is a simple ploy to rope in vegans into a fight. I would ask the OP why they care. Do they eat meat, and if so why would they care about a plant’s feelings when they do not give a damn about slaughtering an animal for meat.

The problem with most meat eaters today is that they do not butcher their own animals. If they had to do that they would soon understand the "circle of life" and the true cost of their indulgence.

Love this article! I had seen on the show mythbusters, the reaction a plant has to negative and positive speech and behavior, it was astounding! As my own experiement at home, I took my 2 palm plants that were on the porch, they usually die out each winter and come back in the spring, but I always bring them into the house at first frost. Anyway, so I put one plant in my bright kitchen and have been 'loving' on it, we sweet talk to it and stroke it lovingly. The other plant is in our bright second bedroom. We don't go in there much, and when I do I simply water the plant then close the door and come out. The results are amazing. The one in the bedroom is almost dead, it wilted down and is shriveling up. The one in the kitchen is vibrant colored, stands up strong and beautiful, and is showing no signs of dying for the season! It was almost immediate that the other plant wilted down! In light of what we saw on Mythbusters though we did not yell at the other plant or threaten to abuse it like they did, we just isolated it.

Originally posted by wx4caster

not true because the actual shape of the plant changes, not just the new growth.

that is to say, that the plant will BEND in order to get the light, not just grow in a new direction. Your quoted definition is correct, but not applicable to what i am describing.

Jesus effing Christ. The plant grows more on the side that isnt facing the light. This makes the plant bend. Its caused by growth hormones called auxins.

Now people are denying the definition of phototropism? You arent describing anything but your own ignorance. Accept the truth and move on. Plants do not move unless something moves them. They grow in the direction of light. They appear to move. They do not actually move.

If one of your legs stopped growing you would appear to bend towards the short side as the other leg got longer. Thats all plants do.


[edit on 28-12-2009 by watcher73]

Originally posted by space cadet
Love this article! I had seen on the show mythbusters, the reaction a plant has to negative and positive speech and behavior, it was astounding! As my own experiement at home, I took my 2 palm plants that were on the porch, they usually die out each winter and come back in the spring, but I always bring them into the house at first frost. Anyway, so I put one plant in my bright kitchen and have been 'loving' on it, we sweet talk to it and stroke it lovingly. The other plant is in our bright second bedroom. We don't go in there much, and when I do I simply water the plant then close the door and come out. The results are amazing. The one in the bedroom is almost dead, it wilted down and is shriveling up. The one in the kitchen is vibrant colored, stands up strong and beautiful, and is showing no signs of dying for the season! It was almost immediate that the other plant wilted down! In light of what we saw on Mythbusters though we did not yell at the other plant or threaten to abuse it like they did, we just isolated it.

You breathe in Oxygen, and you breathe out carbon dioxide
so plants can breathe in carbondioxide and they breathe out oxygen.

Maybe starved for your sweet voice?

when you are cut, the cells are damaged, and the damaged cells send a communication to other cells in your brain that causes your brain to make your injured area to react. that is, your cut finger moves away from the source of injury. The cells then repair and so on, thus scarring.

the plant becomes injured and reacts to the injury by healing itself through new cell growth, thus scarring.

plants do not cry out loud. but they do respond to injury and changes in environment.

yes this is instinctual. It is not a foreplanned thing.

Plants however ARE living things. They do respond to injury and have a life that can be ended.

here is my question. if it is all about pain, then why cant we simply sedate our animals before we kill them. no pain no foul right?

when we kill a plant, there is a visible change from alive to dead. There is an obvious and visible ENDING OF LIFE.

Unfortunately for you, you are human, and you must end the life of things in your environment to survive.

when we kill a plant, there is a visible change from alive to dead. There is an obvious and visible ENDING OF LIFE.

Most plants we eat, if we didnt harvest them, would die soon after we would have harvested them anyway. Its called being an annual when winter comes.

Your point is moot.

Originally posted by watcher73

Originally posted by wx4caster

not true because the actual shape of the plant changes, not just the new growth.

that is to say, that the plant will BEND in order to get the light, not just grow in a new direction. Your quoted definition is correct, but not applicable to what i am describing.

Jesus effing Christ. The plant grows more on the side that isnt facing the light. This makes the plant bend. Its caused by growth hormones called auxins.

Now people are denying the definition of phototropism? You arent describing anything but your own ignorance. Accept the truth and move on. Plants do not move unless something moves them. They grow in the direction of light. They appear to move. They do not actually move.

If one of your legs stopped growing you would appear to bend towards the short side as the other leg got longer. Thats all plants do.


[edit on 28-12-2009 by watcher73]

lol

i am not saying that phototopism is not real silly.

i am saying that plants bend.

i have a hydroponic set up in my house. two cabinets, one veg one flowering chamber with a recirculating waterfeed. every day i have to turn my plants. this is cause by phototopism. BUT i know that within minutes of turning the plants begin to move towrd the light, and the change is dramatic.

OH!

and i suppose that the venus fly trap, the dogwood bunchberry and the white mulberry is all tropism?

the venus fly trap closes in less than a second, far to fast for "growth".

face it, plants move

Originally posted by watcher73

when we kill a plant, there is a visible change from alive to dead. There is an obvious and visible ENDING OF LIFE.

Most plants we eat, if we didnt harvest them, would die soon after we would have harvested them anyway. Its called being an annual when winter comes.

Your point is moot.

so whatt if we eat old cows? in fact most cows that are slaughtered are old and would die from old age anyway.

and this is not true for all plants that we kill for food and other reasons. trees that we kill for papaer and construction material are not "near death"

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd

Possibly hypocritical. In a sense. But not absolutely, or purposefuly. And I'd rather not start name calling. Please, don't try and bait me.

oh - have a sense of humor Devolution :-) (that's why all the smileys)

and - I am ABSOLUTELY trying to bait you LOL!

hypocritical? see - it would ONLY be hypocritical if it were an accepted fact that plants feel pain (going to need more than just the one article) and vegetarians then opted to spare animals over plants

Yes, I'm saying that if animals do indeed fight to survive, or "want" to survive, then how is it any different?

well - there are other people in this thread duking that out right now - and making a better argument than I ever could. But let's just assume plants do feel pain - just for now. My problem with this thread of yours is that you think that you've found a fail safe argument - you were setting the vegetarians up

:-)

now - you know you were

Maybe you should reread that without the preconception that I'm out to attack you....You're so quick to defend your ideology that you've twisted what I've said to make it seem as though I'm out to get you (and all vegetarians/vegans). I'm not.

:-) no - I'm basically just trying to amuse myself - I don't need to defend my ideology

Perhaps many people don't realize how "alive" plants truly are. The difference is, omnivores don't care because they already eat meat, so whether or not they realize is irrelavent.

but since the vegetarians already feel bad - about eating meat - you decided to make them feel worse? LOL!

It doesn't have to be a choice between the lesser of two evils.

again - assuming now, for the sake of this argument, that plants do feel pain - and that it is just as morally wrong to kill them as it is to kill animals - it would absolutely become a choice of the lesser of two evils - no way to get around it

I'd either have to give up one or the other - or decide to eat both

or starve

:-)

Originally posted by pepsi78



There is an order in my perception.
Plants mechanical, insects instinctual, animals mindfull.

Nicely put, if it is your own perception.

Observationally speaking, it would be hard to argue that plants are "mindfull." But it does seem that they are instinctual.

We're all mechanical at the cellular level.

I really like this point:

Originally posted by passenger
Um, if you do a little research you’d find that human pain is just a description for a complex set of chemical reactions that occur from a stimulus (generally a destructive one).

And I would add: .....in order to solicit a response.

It's very obvious that certain parts of plants are releasing chemicals in response to destruction in order to solicit a defensive response.

-Dev

i understand these theories are interesting and her love and fascination with plants are admirable. how does this change anything? and who's paying for these researches?

This also reminded me of Kirlian photos, the phantom leaf photos. Taking a kirlian picture of a whole leaf, then the same leaf with parts of it missing, yet in kirlian photography, the entire leaf still shows up!

Check it out:shadowboxent.brinkster.net...

reply to post by wx4caster


I will make you this offer.

Cross the first bridge. (Stop killing animals.)

Then we can stand on the same ground
and debate how to stop killing plants.

However, until you cross the first bridge
you simply have no position to debate from.

Originally posted by wx4caster
so whatt if we eat old cows? in fact most cows that are slaughtered are old and would die from old age anyway.

and this is not true for all plants that we kill for food and other reasons. trees that we kill for papaer and construction material are not "near death"

We dont eat paper or wood. WTF?

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis


it's one of those subjects. This is what the OP wanted to avoid - this kind of discussion - but I don't think it's possible

I don't mind vegetarian vs. omnivour discussions, I just like them to be full of thoughtful, civil posts of substance. It's healthy that way.

I personally believe people have to decide for themselves - it would do no good whatsoever for me to try and force you to see it my way

I don't disagree with you. There's no way I can force you, or convince you. You have to decide for yourself.

Meanwhile - I'm still wondering - what is the OP's real point? :-)

My point was to provide a discussion template and see where it goes. Pure discussion. It's something I would do if I were at a bar having a beer with you. I'd ask a question and let the conversation fly.

It's something that zazzafrazz and I have talked about, though I jumped the gun and started one without involving her.

I didn't start this thread to convince anyone of anything.

-Dev

Originally posted by wx4caster

lol

i am not saying that phototopism is not real silly.

i am saying that plants bend.

i have a hydroponic set up in my house. two cabinets, one veg one flowering chamber with a recirculating waterfeed. every day i have to turn my plants. this is cause by phototopism. BUT i know that within minutes of turning the plants begin to move towrd the light, and the change is dramatic.

OH!

and i suppose that the venus fly trap, the dogwood bunchberry and the white mulberry is all tropism?

the venus fly trap closes in less than a second, far to fast for "growth".

face it, plants move

Ok the weed in your closet isnt moving. Its growing in the new direction of light after you turned it.

You got me on the venus flytrap, and probably the other two I know nothing about. Interesting. The hairs of the fly trap would seem to be the beginning of a nervous system. But still, no brain, no pain.

The Venus Flytrap is one of a very small group of plants that are capable of rapid movement, such as Mimosa, the Telegraph plant, sundews and bladderworts.

The mechanism by which the trap snaps shut involves a complex interaction between elasticity, turgor and growth.

[edit on 29-12-2009 by watcher73]