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Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too

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posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 05:58 PM
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Its all in the ringing cedars books if anyone wants to read about plants, animals, humans and history. It provides for very good reading. All things were made for man(being shortened version human ie male and female) as the book suggests.




posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 05:58 PM
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Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

but just look what you started :-)


I know, shame on me. :p I've actually enjoyed the discussion thus far.


the problem is there's not enough information on whether or not plants actually suffer - it's very easy for us right now to assume they don't

but you know what? It is an interesting subject. If it were a fact, if plants do suffer - you're right - then what?

(probably the same thing that just happened - all over again)


No doubt. All over again with slightly different arguments......


-Dev



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 06:01 PM
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[edit on 30-12-2009 by DevolutionEvolvd]



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 06:02 PM
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Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

but just look what you started :-)


I know, shame on me. :p I've actually enjoyed the discussion thus far.


the problem is there's not enough information on whether or not plants actually suffer - it's very easy for us right now to assume they don't

but you know what? It is an interesting subject. If it were a fact, if plants do suffer - you're right - then what?

(probably the same thing that just happened - all over again)


No doubt. All over again with slightly different arguments......


-Dev


I read somewhere and i dont remember where that plants do like to be eaten by humans as they keep the human cells alive. They read information form the celestial bodies in order to provide man what they need and cure them of disease. And that animals were created to help provide to man not to be killed for meat. But all that was destroyed when man turned away from their true selves. This lead to the destruction of human race to eat meat for survival everything changed.

[edit on 30-12-2009 by Applesandoranges]



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 06:06 PM
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reply to post by Applesandoranges
 


It truly is speculation, as of now. I'm open to provocative ideas, but to accept them as fact without trying to disprove them....well, that's not science.

-Dev

[edit on 30-12-2009 by DevolutionEvolvd]



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 06:12 PM
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Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
reply to post by Applesandoranges
 


It truly is speculation, as of now. I'm open to provocative ideas, but to accept them as fact without trying to disprove it....well, that's not science.

-Dev


Ever since global warming scandal and journal scandals what is true science?
Im not saying it is to be believed as fact nor mention it because true history has been destroyed so there is no evidence except what you know in your soul.
Anyhow what i do see is that we have been eating meat for centuries up to this present day. People yearn for heaven on earth. But in many people's hearts can see that the future looks bleak.

[edit on 30-12-2009 by Applesandoranges]



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 06:12 PM
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reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd
 


well - they go where they go

(I'm sensing a few low blood sugar moments...here and there)

but - good for you anyhow - and, it's not over yet

:-)



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 06:18 PM
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I asked my friend this just yesterday. IF we go back to being gatherer's of fruit, veggies, nuts and tubers before we discovered meat would we devolve? Some say monkeys are more intelligent then us but they are one with nature they know their roll on earth. We with our minds just see them different to us.

Did we think now that with our evolved brains we did a bad or a good thing?

To me i see destruction, wars, hate, greed, seperateness, useless destroying technology, fighting like this in the group.
What would have it been like if we just stayed one with nature instead of the earth being destroyed the way it is now by certain actions described of an ill mind.

We lost 6th sense, wisdom, connection with earth, natural instinct and survival, togetherness, devoid of any connection with the earth and celestial bodies.

[edit on 30-12-2009 by Applesandoranges]



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 07:18 PM
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Originally posted by Schmidt1989

Originally posted by dzonatas
You only clearly illustrated that you think vegetarians are stupid.


You're disgustingly incorrect, re-read the original post... the whole thing this time.


You previously stated, "Being a vegetarian is a stupid choice." You even stated you tease them. There is nothing about the rest of your posts that doesn't illustrate otherwise.



That literally makes no sense.


I agree. I thought I would try to repeat what you stated to see if you really did make any sense. It's simple ritual called 'listening' skills, but... meh... nevermind.


Meat existed way before humans.


Do you mean homosapiens as a species? Or, humanoid as some lifeform beyond the meat?

Either way, you obviously avoided to respond directly to what I wrote and further tried to use a strawman to... meh... nevermind.


But perhaps you don't believe dinosaurs ever roamed the earth.


All is possible. For every scientific fact there is a conscientific fact because this is how science works. Just because there is proof life exists 1 billion years ago doesn't mean life didn't exist 1 trillion years ago. Just because evolution theory can only find data back to Cambrian times, doesn't mean time didn't exist before then.

I seem to be a little more of a hard-core scientist than you. I don't believe in theories or faiths. Belief is not theory. Belief is not faith.


Humans didn't come out of thin air. Do you understand anything about human evolution?


If time is infinite, how could there ever be evolution? Perhaps, you haven't yet pondered that far. All the phenomena in the world has never proven when time began.


Why hunt for meat? Have you ever heard of an ice age? Guess not.


Have you ever heard of a time when there was no Earth to even have an ice age? "Guess not!"



Are the stories they consist of fiction? Of course.


Aha! Good question. Somebody wrote them and that obviously documents historical accounts. The accounts are fact even if the stories are fiction. I'm not some naive scientist that just tosses a historic book aside as complete fiction just because the very words "evolution of species" is not written on it.

The problem most scientist have with evolutionism is the inability to accept the possibility that creationism could also happen, but I don't promote either one or say you have to believe either one.... I just note the possibility of both.

[edit on 30-12-2009 by dzonatas]



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 07:24 PM
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[edit on 30/12/2009 by EyeOnYou]



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 07:30 PM
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*Mod Edit: Less swears, more decorum.

Cheers.

[edit on 31-12-2009 by alien]



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 07:40 PM
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Originally posted by Applesandoranges
I asked my friend this just yesterday. IF we go back to being gatherer's of fruit, veggies, nuts and tubers before we discovered meat would we devolve? Some say monkeys are more intelligent then us but they are one with nature they know their roll on earth. We with our minds just see them different to us.

Did we think now that with our evolved brains we did a bad or a good thing?

To me i see destruction, wars, hate, greed, seperateness, useless destroying technology, fighting like this in the group.
What would have it been like if we just stayed one with nature instead of the earth being destroyed the way it is now by certain actions described of an ill mind.

We lost 6th sense, wisdom, connection with earth, natural instinct and survival, togetherness, devoid of any connection with the earth and celestial bodies.

[edit on 30-12-2009 by Applesandoranges]


I agree with the "oneness" with Earth. I think that is something that makes all animals in the animal kingdom smarter than us.

If you want to be technical, eating fruits, veggies, nuts etc...will make you smarter. They are what the brain has evolved on, not Mcdonald's or Snickers bars. Our brain uses 20% of our bodies energy and it uses it to obviously keep our brain functioning properly.

I always try to explain it to people like a car; you want the best fuel for your car, you wouldn't be putting garbage into it and expect it to run properly would you? Obviously our brain is more complicated and can find the little bit of good in crap food, but still it doesn't function anywhere near it's peak.

As for our role, well personally I blame our role right now on religion. Religion has taught us that we were above the animals and they were there to do with what we wish. It also let us believe that we were some how greater, and made is God's image. When we finally realize and get over this whole religion thing I think that is when we will go back to nature and realize our true role.

Speaking as a Vegan and as an Atheist I think nature is our truest form of everything. I also think the universe has a big role as that is why I am becoming and Astrophysicist. We will eventually realize that everything, (the starts the planets the universe, water, life, etc) is all one. We were all created from a supernova that was made from the building block from the big bang.


Carl Sagan said it best, "We are all star stuff harvesting star light."



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 08:02 PM
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And if you all are carnivores then the idea would be if you saw roadkill on the side of the road you would be willing to eat it, there, and raw. We are not carnivores, all of our ape brothers eat very little meat.

Animal products and malnourishment is responsible for 98% of diseases, we would not have any cholesterol if we did not eat animals products, since that is the only way to ingest it. We would not have heart problems either.

So to say that a Vegetarian lifestyle is weird and wrong, I bet you play the lottery with your 0.000000006% chance of winning, but you will eat meat and animal products with a 98% chance of dying from it. Weird, but call me what you want.

I choose to make and educated decision and to teach my kids the same. If they choose to eat meat as they grow so be it. I am a vegan for all the reasons and I wish to be healthier. Is that wrong?

Most people eat more meat than they do vegetables now a days. Did you know that a headache is from lack of water, go drink a few glasses of water and your headache will leave. Also a handful of raw organic cashews is equivalent of a prozac.

Our cures and health rely in vegetation not from killing and blood.

[edit on 30-12-2009 by predator0187]



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 08:14 PM
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The horse does not want to drink the water...

An animal will consume tons more living plants on its way to our plate than if we just ate the plants directly. Therefore farming animals instead of plants violates utilitarian moral theory. So even by humouring the 'fanciful' thesis of this thread, it is still morally preferable to consume plants as it constitutes 'the lesser of 2 evils'. I won't persist any further, because it's a pathetically narrow argument.

P.S. Rusethorcain, just like physical exercise makes the body feel good, exercising compassion makes the soul feel good. That's the unsung virtue of practising a vego diet.



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 08:14 PM
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I am a vegetarian who hopes to someday become vegan (when I get my act together). I avoid animal products as much as possible but feed my cats commercial cat food. I am not perfect, yet I do speak out against the eating of meat. (For those with the "let's all be tolerant and not impose our beliefs on others" argument, would you be "tolerant" of someone eating your baby?)

We are hear to maximize pleasure and minimize pain for all sentient beings, and the more sentient have greater priority than the less sentient IF there must be a choice. I believe it is likely that all things, even atoms, are conscious at some level. But atoms < rocks < plants < animals < people in terms of the ability to feel pain and pleasure. I do not have proof of that, it just seems likely. (I do not have proof love exists either, it just seems likely and I base my life on that.)

Whether we were designed as omnivores or vegetarians, by becoming more vegan we can prevent much unnecessary suffering. Shouldn't we be compassionate and do so?



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 09:14 PM
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I tried desperately to resist but when opinions are given as fact without any basis, at all i just can't resist.


Originally posted by predator0187
I agree with the "oneness" with Earth. I think that is something that makes all animals in the animal kingdom smarter than us.


Yeah a tiger is smarter than us because it agrees with your oneness, i would be interested to see you quoting that as a tiger rips you apart for food.


Originally posted by predator0187
If you want to be technical, eating fruits, veggies, nuts etc...will make you smarter. They are what the brain has evolved on, not Mcdonald's or Snickers bars. Our brain uses 20% of our bodies energy and it uses it to obviously keep our brain functioning properly.


No sorry there is no evidence, at all that eating fruits, veggies and buts will make you smarter and the according to numerous scientists the brain evolved to it's current point because our ancestors started eating meat, which was a more dense source of energy. This left time to develop complex social structures. Cooking also did this as the act of cooking breaks down cmplex molecules and enables us to spend less time eating. A vegetable diet tends to mean a great dealof time eating.



Originally posted by predator0187
I always try to explain it to people like a car; you want the best fuel for your car, you wouldn't be putting garbage into it and expect it to run properly would you? Obviously our brain is more complicated and can find the little bit of good in crap food, but still it doesn't function anywhere near it's peak.


Oh i agree but meat is far from crap food. Lean meat is assimilated by the body very well. Compare it to complex carbohydrates and plant proteins which have to be combined in various quantities to provide complete proteins. I mean beans have to be combined with a grain to provide a complete protein and the body has to process these together whereas animal protein can simply be absorbed.


Originally posted by predator0187
As for our role, well personally I blame our role right now on religion. Religion has taught us that we were above the animals and they were there to do with what we wish. It also let us believe that we were some how greater, and made is God's image. When we finally realize and get over this whole religion thing I think that is when we will go back to nature and realize our true role.


That doesn't quite work when atheists such as myself still consider us to be above most animals. You really see things as black and white don't you.


Originally posted by predator0187
Speaking as a Vegan and as an Atheist I think nature is our truest form of everything. I also think the universe has a big role as that is why I am becoming and Astrophysicist. We will eventually realize that everything, (the starts the planets the universe, water, life, etc) is all one. We were all created from a supernova that was made from the building block from the big bang.


Carl Sagan said it best, "We are all star stuff harvesting star light."


Ok now you are an atheist and dare to say religion is what has caused this belief that humans are above animals yet here i am, an atheist that thinks otherwise. Please don't use your atheism to promote veganism, it is utterly stupid to do so.

I understand we came from a supernova, the atmos within my body were once a part of a star and that to me is absolutely incredible. However because i share iron atoms with a rabbit does not mean i value that rabbit above a human life. If you want to argue such a simplistic view as star stuff then a rock has as much value as a human life because they both contain iron.

I think you haven't really thought this threw.



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 09:15 PM
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I wish i could resist, i really do but when lies, without any basis at all are presented as fact i just can't help myself.



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 09:27 PM
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Originally posted by EyeOnYou
reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd
 


how about this for a provocative idea;
vegans are fukkin stupid and they are a gnats chuff away from being as bad as the damn nazis preaching their ideas on how other people should live their lives.
you know i watched this programme the other day and it was about the spartans hahaha and this berdy proffesor who no doubt wears socks and sandals reckond they were vegans HAHAHAHAHAHAHA these fools are so pathetic they actually make sh1t up to try and make them feel better about themselves hahahahaha.


You have some hostility issues, a callous disregard for life, an unpleasant way of interacting with people and you don't spell so good. Feel better?



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 09:27 PM
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Originally posted by predator0187
And if you all are carnivores then the idea would be if you saw roadkill on the side of the road you would be willing to eat it, there, and raw. We are not carnivores, all of our ape brothers eat very little meat.


Our ape brothers came from the missing link and as we divurged our ancestors developed tool use. We developed fire, your ancestors developed fire and ate cooked meat. Cooking became mainstream, not only because of the taste but cooking breaks down complex molecules and enables us to spend less time eating. So no eating it raw is simply stupid and btw many vegetables can't be eaten raw, kidney beans, heard of hem?


Originally posted by predator0187
Animal products and malnourishment is responsible for 98% of diseases, we would not have any cholesterol if we did not eat animals products, since that is the only way to ingest it. We would not have heart problems either.


I responded to this via U2U as i just didn't want to enter this thread again but you completely ignored it. I would love for you to provide figures for this incredibly bold statement. I can tell you right now that if you can provide reputable figures for this i will give up meat. Honestly i really would i promise you on my own life.

Guess what you know nothing of human physiology because humans actually produce cholesterol within their bodies and to think it all comes from diet is utterly stupid. My next door neighbor wendy is a strict vegan and yet high colesterol runs in her family and she herself is currently on drugs to suppress it. You sir/madam are a danger to those who wish to be informed about such matters.


Originally posted by predator0187
So to say that a Vegetarian lifestyle is weird and wrong, I bet you play the lottery with your 0.000000006% chance of winning, but you will eat meat and animal products with a 98% chance of dying from it. Weird, but call me what you want.


Firstly a vegetarian diet is weird because it goes against evolution in modern humans. Modern humans have developed alongside meat consumption so in that sense it is weird. However i, as a meat eater say you can do as you wish, i just don't care. A 98% chance of dying from meat, again where do you get that figure? The mortality rate of humans is 100%.


Originally posted by predator0187
I choose to make and educated decision and to teach my kids the same. If they choose to eat meat as they grow so be it. I am a vegan for all the reasons and I wish to be healthier. Is that wrong?


You have proven that you are not educated, you think cholesterol comes only from diet, you seem to think vegans won't suffer heart disease, you seem to think that meat consumptions causes 98% mortality. Seriously where do you get these figures?


Originally posted by predator0187
Most people eat more meat than they do vegetables now a days. Did you know that a headache is from lack of water, go drink a few glasses of water and your headache will leave. Also a handful of raw organic cashews is equivalent of a prozac.


No a headache can be from lack of water but numerous things can cause a headache including stress, electrolyte problems (which can be caused by over consumption of water), various gases, caffeine, sugar, numerous medical conditions.............well i mean basically you are just either ignorant orlying here.


Originally posted by predator0187
Our cures and health rely in vegetation not from killing and blood.


Or they rely in using less meat but not eliminating it. I am happy to say that excessive meat consumption causes disease, you will never get an argument out of me saying otherwise. However using small amounts of meat is perfectly safe.



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 09:28 PM
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Originally posted by Jumbles
(For those with the "let's all be tolerant and not impose our beliefs on others" argument, would you be "tolerant" of someone eating your baby?)


Wait a minute, did you just compare having a cheeseburger to being a cannibal and eating people's children? See, this kind of stuff is why I hate PETA. If you think eating your neighbor's baby and treating yourself to a nice cheese steak sub are even remotely comparable, I think you might want to step back and rethink that position.





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