Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too

double post - my apologies

[edit on 12/30/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

Ok, in this world all things depend on eating something else to survive.

Even the simplest lichens eat minerals to survive.

Minerals are non organic & the bottom of the food chain in organic existance.

We are at the top of the food chain, on Earth.

What about the next level up, on the chain .... are we their food?

Do these elitests, given their role as having control over us, know more than they let on? Have they sold us out for their own gain? They obviously prosper at our expense and we allow it to be so.

I mean, in a satirical sense.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


I laughed at your post above me, but it was rather immature. Nice effort, though.

reply to post by OrphenFire


good we can laugh though - right?

but keep your distance OrphenFire - I believe you might eat anything that gets too close

:-)

Originally posted by Schmidt1989
I love animals, I own 2 dogs and a bird. And i'll always own a dog and hopefully a cat in the future when i'm out of school. I sponsor a tiger down in florida that was rescued from a circus. I considered zoology as a profession. But i'll eat steak and wings till the day I die.

[edit on 12/30/2009 by Schmidt1989]

Of course, what higher expression of love could there be than killing something and eating its flesh?

Your attitude is shared by a great many people and is called doublethink. I became a vegetarian once I realised that I could no longer sustain my claim to love animals at the same time as eating them. If you kill an animal just because you like the taste any claim that you 'love' that animal is just words.

reply to post by MarrsAttax
are you saying that the native americans didn't love animals?

reply to post by MarrsAttax


Hang on, there are tribes throughout the world that revere nature and the animals they share the world with and yet they eat them. It really isn't as simple as you are making out. If consider that eating meat is a healthier option than vegetarianism (and i think it is and i have provided multiple research sources that say it is) then i will eat meat but i can still love animals. So it is not doublethink. If they said they loved animals and then tortured them for fun, that would be doublethink.

Oh and before you say vegetarianism is factually healthier, case closed, remember that studies done on vegetarians vs meat eaters tend to select heavy meat eaters, not the sensible kind. The kind of meat eater that has meat maybe 4 times a week, in small portions and picks the healthy meats not the fat laden ones.

Also remember that there is no vegetable source for creatine or co enzyme Q10 and whilst your body can synthesise small amounts every study done finds lower levels of these two chemicals in vegetarian and vegan people, unless they supplement with them. Now this may not affect some veggy people who are incredibly active but others end up being lathargic and have to supplement.

Look you eat your way and i'll eat mine but don't dare to call meat eaters who love animals as people engaging in doublethink when all of the vegetables you eat have been grown on farms where animals have had to be culled to protect those crops. You may not eat animals but your lifestyle results in the death of many.

Accept the fact that if you are alive then you are causing the death of some animal out there, if you truly cared about animals then you would simply kill yourself. Hate to be rude about it but that is the final truth of the matter and pretty much the only way you can prevent the death of something.

reply to post by technical difficulties


Well if you're saying that native americans killed animals purely because they liked the taste then, yes I guess I am. However, I think their meat eating was probably much more to do with subsistence than pleasure.

Even so I find it hard to reconcile a claim of love for something with killing it and eating it. Did Jeffrey Darmer love his victims?

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by MarrsAttax

 

Hang on, there are tribes throughout the world that revere nature and the animals they share the world with and yet they eat them.

Do you revere humans so much that you would eat one? Don't you just love the taste of them?

It's a choice.

It really isn't as simple as you are making out. If consider that eating meat is a healthier option than vegetarianism (and i think it is and i have provided multiple research sources that say it is) then i will eat meat but i can still love animals.

That would be an argument of nutritional value, but Devo already stated he just wants to argue moral values. You'll have to wait until Devo posts a thread on nutritional values, so you can militantly love that thread and S&F it, too.

I call them bash points when the reason to give the stars and flags have nothing to do (doublethink?) with the real topical discussion.

The bash points earned when you state something against vegetarians is no different from anybody that starts a war for profit.

You can spend your bash points on ATS to upgrade your profile and avatar image. You can become a moral contributor to ATS, too. I guess that is what you meant by sensible? Or, was that more doublethink?

Originally posted by MarrsAttax

Even so I find it hard to reconcile a claim of love for something with killing it and eating it. Did Jeffrey Darmer love his victims?

www.youtube.com...

Nope sorry you just lost all credibility. To compare the killing of a non sentient being as a means to continue ones existence is not the same as a man torturing, killing and then eating a sentient being for fun. We're not talking apples and oranges here, we're talking apples and aardvarks. After this comment of yours i just won't bother with replying to you. This is the sort of tactic that those scumbags PETA use.

I don't know if you support PETA, hopefully not because i could tell you some shocking things about them and not just the stuff mentioned on Penn and Tellers show.

This is a very interesting thread to read through. I'm thoroughly entertained.

I don't know whether or not plants can feel pain, but IMO, they are definitely aware of their surroundings and environment though not on the level that humans or animals are. Plants know which way to twist their leaves to face the nearest/strongest light source, their roots know when they have to spread out to look for water and the leaves tell the flowering buds on the plant when to flower because it knows when the days are getting shorter and they are getting fewer hours of sunlight. The seeds of some plants will only root after they've been chilled for an extended period of time to simulate winter coming and going. Strawberries are a good example and most bulbs can be forced to flower out of season using this method. So, I do believe plants and even the seeds are aware of their surroundings to a point. Just because they don't have cute little eyes to look into or a voice box doesn't mean they aren't aware to some degree.

I will say that if it was ever conclusively proven that plants are aware, there would be nothing left to eat for vegetarians. For vegans, fruit and nuts couldn't even be eaten because this living, aware plant is being used for it's fruit. I mean, is there really much of a choice but to believe plants aren't aware in this case?

As far as not being able to claim you love animals because you eat meat, I'm not sure I can agree with that though I do see the logic. Does that then mean that vegetarians hate plants and eat them out of malice? Of course not, they eat them because they have to eat something. I don't make a habit of eating fast food nor do I eat a lot of burgers, but I do love a good burger every now and then. I love to eat chicken, but I don't hate chickens. I guess I just look at it as the cycle of life and the food chain in action with us being at the top. It's not like we're eating cows and chickens into extinction, but again, I do think there is a better way to go about getting the meat than slitting the cow's throat while it's still alive and letting it bleed to death. I love animals and I love plants, but I still eat products from both.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Nope sorry you just lost all credibility.

Looks more like you are unable to handle the comparison and unable to simply discuss the points being made, and so now you go off on a tangent ad hominem.

To compare the killing of a non sentient being as a means to continue ones existence is not the same as a man torturing, killing and then eating a sentient being for fun.

First, prove either one is or is not sentient, then your response may actually look credible beside just emotional.

We're not talking apples and oranges here, we're talking apples and aardvarks.

What happened to the "talk" about the moral issues of vegetarians?

Originally posted by Kratos1220
I will say that if it was ever conclusively proven that plants are aware, there would be nothing left to eat for vegetarians.

If a person that walk and talks and reacts to the environment is proven to actually not be alive, does that make it alright to eat that person? It's similar logic to you what just said, different perspective.

Do you think the only reason why vegetarians eat plants is because they think plants aren't alive or aware?

reply to post by dzonatas


No it wasn't ad hominem, when someone compares a serial killer of human beings, thinking, caring, emotionally advanced and self aware beings, tortured for fun to non sentient (oh and no evidence has ever been uncovered for pigs, cows, sheep etc being self aware) beings being humanely slaughtered then that person has lost all touch with reality. I am not struggling to debate you i just can't be bothered with dealing with someone who would compare those two things. Human life has far more value than an animal to me.

Tell you what, hypothetical, someone sits you in a chair, straps you in and puts a gun in each hand. they put a human being in front of one gun and a chicken in front of the other. They say you have to shoot one or the other or they will kill your entire family, which do you choose?

That is why the comparison of a serial killer of human beings to the mass slaughtered of animals is not just a dishonest debating tactic, it is quite slimey. Oh and yeah i don't usually attack a postre i go after the post but to compare the two, you should be ashamed. You have cheapened the deaths of those poor victims of that sicko Dalmer.

I wonder if you would say that to the famillies of the victims. I wasn't going to reply to you again but as you went for character assasination instead of addressing the points i had to come back. Odd that you accuse me of ad hominim and then you do exactly that..............wow.

Originally posted by dzonatas
First, prove either one is or is not sentient, then your response may actually look credible beside just emotional.

Quite easy there is a simple test done with paint applied to the face of chimps. You see chimps can recognise themselves in a mirror and try to wipe the paint off, this is self realisation and it is why i would not eat a chimp. There are levels of sentient capacity. A chicken is a very stupid animal, a pig is able to grasp simple commands but shows no signs of self awareness, nor do cows (although i don't eat cows as i think they require to many resources to raise).

So that is my standard, self realisation.

I rarely get angry on ATS but to cheapen the lives of living people who suffered at the hands of a truly horrible man, tortured, beaten, killed, i just cannot understand that mindset. If it had happened to someone in your family i wonder if you would say the same. In fact you sit there thinking you are morally superior and yet you are so uncaring and lack compassion for your fellow man.

[edit on 30-12-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Hang on, there are tribes throughout the world that revere nature and the animals they share the world with and yet they eat them. It really isn't as simple as you are making out. If consider that eating meat is a healthier option than vegetarianism (and i think it is and i have provided multiple research sources that say it is) then i will eat meat but i can still love animals. So it is not doublethink. If they said they loved animals and then tortured them for fun, that would be doublethink.

Are you a member of such a tribe? Do you eat meat to subsist? Torturing animals is wrong but killing them is ok? What is factory farming if not a form of torture?

Oh and before you say vegetarianism is factually healthier, case closed, remember that studies done on vegetarians vs meat eaters tend to select heavy meat eaters, not the sensible kind. The kind of meat eater that has meat maybe 4 times a week, in small portions and picks the healthy meats not the fat laden ones.

I wasn't going to say say anything of the sort as the relative health benefits are irrelevant to the moral argument. Regardless of which is healthier can you honestly say a vegetarian diet is of necessity an unhealthy one? Both diets have good and bad things going for them healthwise.

Also remember that there is no vegetable source for creatine or co enzyme Q10 and whilst your body can synthesise small amounts every study done finds lower levels of these two chemicals in vegetarian and vegan people, unless they supplement with them. Now this may not affect some veggy people who are incredibly active but others end up being lathargic and have to supplement.

Creatine is naturally produced in the human body from amino acids primarily in the kidney and liver. I

Creatine is not an essential nutrient as it is manufactured in the human body from L-arginine, glycine, and L-methionine.[3]Creatine is not an essential nutrient as it is manufactured in the human body from L-arginine, glycine, and L-methionine.

Source: en.wikipedia.org...

Regardless, is the benefit of being slightly more muscular really moral justification for killing a sentient creature? I would argue that it isn't.

Look you eat your way and i'll eat mine but don't dare to call meat eaters who love animals as people engaging in doublethink when all of the vegetables you eat have been grown on farms where animals have had to be culled to protect those crops. You may not eat animals but your lifestyle results in the death of many.

The fact that I may also engage in doublethink doesn't mean that you don't. I could also argue that the animals you speak of led a natural life unlike the millions of animals that are born, raised and die in appalling conditions without ever seeing the light of day. I concede that you may not be a fan of factory farming yourself but there are plenty of 'animal lovers' out there who will eat factory farmed meat. If they thought about the inconsistency they wouldn't do it but they don't. Instead they use a mental trick to divorce the reality of the production from the product on their plate.

Even the language used around meat is designed to facilitate this double-think. People don't eat cows, pigs and deer, they eat beef, pork and venison. I do dare to say that meateaters who love animals are engaged in doublethink because for the first 18 years of my life I was a meat eater and I myself engaged in this doublethink. I'm not judging anyone else for doing the same thing I did. I was just pointing out that there is a logical inconsistency in believing it's possible to both love and kill something when the act of killing is not necessary for your own immediate survival. I can't think of any other example where loving something is judged to be compatible with being party to it's destruction.

Accept the fact that if you are alive then you are causing the death of some animal out there, if you truly cared about animals then you would simply kill yourself. Hate to be rude about it but that is the final truth of the matter and pretty much the only way you can prevent the death of something.

I don't pretend to be blameless. I'm not naive enough to think that my own vegetarianism will lead to a world without death where the lion will lie down with the lamb But I do believe that people can act to minimise suffering. Your argument seems to be that because vegetarianism cannot completely eradicate the death of animals there is no value in trying to prevent the death of any animal or minimise their suffering. The logical upshot of this position is that if I step on an ant I then I would be justified in shooting a gorilla. This is bad logic. I could use the same reasoning to argue that, because it's not possible to completely prevent death by road accidents, there is no value in investing in car safety or making seatbelt use mandatory.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
thinking, caring, emotionally advanced and self aware beings

I doubt you have actually proved that someone else all of those. Computers can be taught to react just like humans, so based on reaction alone you probably will claim that computer as sentient, thinking, caring, emotionally advanced and self aware being.

No one on this Earth has ever provided proof that anybody is alive and aware when they are born or anytime after.

That is reality.

Human life has far more value than an animal to me.

You are what you eat.

They say you have to shoot one or the other or they will kill your entire family, which do you choose?

You should be ashamed of yourself, I haven't seen my kids for years because THEY ARE MISSING... and you say # like this to me. When you can care about that, ...

I wonder if you would say that to the famillies of the victims.

We already know you would as you just did, likewise.

In fact you sit there thinking you are morally superior and yet you are so uncaring and lack compassion for your fellow man.

Hmmm. I stay busy so I don't drown in my major depressive disorder that I have been diagnosed with. I think you need to look in the mirror like those chimps, I don't think you would recognize yourself.

[edit on 30-12-2009 by dzonatas]

[edit on 30-12-2009 by dzonatas]

Originally posted by MarrsAttax
Of course, what higher expression of love could there be than killing something and eating its flesh?

Your attitude is shared by a great many people and is called doublethink. I became a vegetarian once I realised that I could no longer sustain my claim to love animals at the same time as eating them. If you kill an animal just because you like the taste any claim that you 'love' that animal is just words.

Judging by your logic, any carnivore would have to live in isolation. They couldn't possibly love, or live with, one another.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/071538008ffb.jpg[/atsimg]

Just sayin.....

-Dev

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


I apologise unreservedly. In hindsight it was a poor choice of analogy. My intent was to compare the concept of love with the concept of killing and how I believe the two are incompatible. It's sometimes easy to lose sight of the fact that are real human beings at the other end of these forum discussions and they are not simply abstract discussions.

My intent not to cause offence or anguish and I apologise to anyone who was upset by the remark.

Originally posted by MarrsAttax
Are you a member of such a tribe? Do you eat meat to subsist? Torturing animals is wrong but killing them is ok? What is factory farming if not a form of torture?

Nope i am not a member of such a tribe but i do eat meat to subsit because i consider it the healthier option and further i once tried vegetarianism and let me just say i know a great deal about nutrition and yet i felt lathargic, even when supplementing. Introduce meat and i started to feel better. I would say different people run best on different diets, aare you saying i should sacrifice my health?

Further i don't eat factory farmed meat. Nearly everything i eat is freshly shot, by myself or friends i know do it humanely. All other meat is purchased from local farms where i can see the conditions the chickens are in (chicken being the only meat i buy from farms).

Originally posted by MarrsAttax

I wasn't going to say say anything of the sort as the relative health benefits are irrelevant to the moral argument. Regardless of which is healthier can you honestly say a vegetarian diet is of necessity an unhealthy one? Both diets have good and bad things going for them healthwise.

Hang on stop right there. The moral argument to me is intertwined with the nutritional one. Because if eating meat is healthier for some people then why should they be made to suffer by only eating vegetables? So if both diets have good and bad points then both diets are equal and please leave me alone to consume meat as i do, in small quantities.

Originally posted by MarrsAttax

Creatine is naturally produced in the human body from amino acids primarily in the kidney and liver. I

Creatine is not an essential nutrient as it is manufactured in the human body from L-arginine, glycine, and L-methionine.[3]Creatine is not an essential nutrient as it is manufactured in the human body from L-arginine, glycine, and L-methionine.

Source: en.wikipedia.org...

Regardless, is the benefit of being slightly more muscular really moral justification for killing a sentient creature? I would argue that it isn't.

Didn't i say that the body can synthesis small amounts? I believe i did, so why you felt the need to quote this i'm not sure. However it's not about being slightly more muscular and the fact you said that tends to show you don't know as much as you think you do. CE Q10 helps in energy production which is quite helpful for any athelete or indeed someone suffering from a health condition such as myself. Creatine, whilst encouraging the muscles to store more water can lead to increased performance in endurance and/or contractile strength of muscle tissue.

Now whilst you may not value those things other people do.

Originally posted by MarrsAttax
The fact that I may also engage in doublethink doesn't mean that you don't. I could also argue that the animals you speak of led a natural life unlike the millions of animals that are born, raised and die in appalling conditions without ever seeing the light of day. I concede that you may not be a fan of factory farming yourself but there are plenty of 'animal lovers' out there who will eat factory farmed meat. If they thought about the inconsistency they wouldn't do it but they don't. Instead they use a mental trick to divorce the reality of the production from the product on their plate.

So wait wait i'm confused, either it's ok to eat animals or it is not, don't go walking in here and justify it by saying they lived a natural life. Further do you actually realise how the vast majority are culled? they are not culled by humane hunters such as myself, they are chased out by ferrets, gassed, infected and many other really nasty methods.

Oh and you know we've found something we can agree on. I get really annoyed with the hypocritical carnivore. These are people that love meat and yet if you mention you kil your own food they look at you in horror and even call you sick. They couldn't see an animal killed, butchered and prepared and then eat it. I actually have more respect for vegetarians han i do for these people, at least you picked a position for what you consider good reasons.

Originally posted by MarrsAttax
Even the language used around meat is designed to facilitate this double-think. People don't eat cows, pigs and deer, they eat beef, pork and venison. I do dare to say that meateaters who love animals are engaged in doublethink because for the first 18 years of my life I was a meat eater and I myself engaged in this doublethink. I'm not judging anyone else for doing the same thing I did. I was just pointing out that there is a logical inconsistency in believing it's possible to both love and kill something when the act of killing is not necessary for your own immediate survival. I can't think of any other example where loving something is judged to be compatible with being party to it's destruction.

The naming isn't to disguise where it comes from, it is to describe a product and it goes back to a time when peopel did butcher their own meat so no this argument doesn't work. How about this. Every year i kill deer, we go out and try to pick off the weakest animals in the herd. By doing this the herd remains small enough that no animal starves to death and the general population gains strength. Now i say i love animals (and i do) and i would say this is a respectful act. I honestly believe i am doing good. The meat is a side product.

As i stated a lot earlier pages back i helped a couple running an organic farm go from losing most of their crop to harvesting over two thirds of it by killing animals. I don't enjoy killing, the meat i get is a side benefit that would otherwise go to waste. Don't you see it is a sign of respect to eat it rather than let it rot on the ground.

Originally posted by MarrsAttax
I don't pretend to be blameless. I'm not naive enough to think that my own vegetarianism will lead to a world without death where the lion will lie down with the lamb

But I do believe that people can act to minimise suffering. Your argument seems to be that because vegetarianism cannot completely eradicate the death of animals there is no value in trying to prevent the death of any animal or minimise their suffering. The logical upshot of this position is that if I step on an ant I then I would be justified in shooting a gorilla. This is bad logic. I could use the same reasoning to argue that, because it's not possible to completely prevent death by road accidents, there is no value in investing in car safety or making seatbelt use mandatory.

So ok minimise suffering, well by culling pest species i help people harvest more crops and so i reduce suffering by helping the farmer remain profitable, without profit the farm would shut down and people would not receive those lovely vegetables and grains.

Oh and i woudln't kill gorilla because again they appear to show signs of being self aware, as do many of the great apes and even some parrot species, although the parrot example is debatable.

your missing kids

I did not know your kids are missing and i feel for you, seriously i do however i'm sorry but you can't use that against me. the difference was i did not know your kids were missing when i gave you that hypothetical whereas you were happy to compare a situation, knowing of the deaths and torture and the families involved, to meat farming.

So whilst i feel sorry for you, and as much as i say that and apologise i can't convey how sorry for you i feel, i will not let you brow beat me with that point, the two are not comparable.

[edit on 30-12-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


I think the point is that it's possible for someone to love some animals and still eat meat just like the animals in your picture 'love' each other. Do they 'love' the animals that they are fed though?

Yes a meat eater may love their pets but do they truly love the cow that went into their burger? In what way does this love manifest itself and how does the food animal benefit from it?

I'd argue that generally when a meat eater claims to be an animal lover what they actually mean is that they love certain animals or they love the idea of animals or they love animals as a species - the individual animals they eat they simply don't give any thought to at all.

I just don't see how someone can claim to love something and still be able to kill it. For me 'Love' is a concept wholly removed from inflicting violence upon something.