Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too, page 2

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reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 10:12 PM by misfitoy

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd

Meh, I think it's a matter of who or what you want to believe at this point...

VEGdaily

"Perhaps before writing today’s New York Times article, “Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too,” writer Natalie Angier should have come over and met my dog and my plant. Maybe she would have noticed a difference".

"Seems to me there’s a monumental distinction between a brainless, nervous system-less, plant instinctively reacting to its “predator” (insects, in the example Angier gave) by irritating it, compared with a sentient being (complete with a brain and nervous system) screaming as she or he is literally shoved into the slaughter line. If my dog was shoved into a slaughter line, she’d scream, too. If my plant was, it would just sit there".

The VEGdaily article is actually pretty entertaining to read.

reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 10:15 PM by watcher73

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

come now the veggies are now trying to find things "wrong" with the OP's logic now.

there are things wrong with the OPs logic

:-)

Ya equating simple environmental responses to "liking" is a pretty serious flaw.

reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 10:16 PM by ReelView

All kinds of ways to rationalize anything. It is certainly true that a plant has a spirit and is conscious to some degree. However, a plant does not have a kinetic heart center as an animal does. It responds to impulse but doesn't feel pain in anyway similar to an animal. Because a plant doesn't have an active heart center, it doesn't infuse it's "flesh" with it's desires as animals do. So the bottom line is the impact on taking the life and eating the flesh is considerably less than with an animal.

This is why a fruitarian, breatharian or non-eater diet are the least destructive. Ideally tree ripened fruit provides an edible flesh without impacting the life form in the plant or the seed.

Even the fruit diet is corrupted by the current system. Fruits are picked too green and the seeds may not grow or the waste treatment plant destroys the seeds excreted. Oh well, that's the world we are in, now.

Eating grains and nuts are also destructive. So be it.

You are right, the nature of the world is never truly hospitable. There are always trade-offs. The world here is the opposite of the purely spiritual. Here, spirits are always being consumed as energy for other life forms.

reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 10:21 PM by Kaploink

I read so many things attacking vegetarians and vegans, yet meat eaters also seem to have some moral issues with eating certain animals. You can butcher and eat a cow, but you can't do the same with poodles.

If animals are just like Brussels Sprouts, then eating cats and dogs shouldn't be a moral issue in the United States. Yet, meat eaters in the United States are outraged when they hear about such incidents.

It's rather perplexing. It's not like dogs and cats are an endangered species. Millions of abandoned and stray cats and dogs get killed each year. Instead of letting them go to waste, we could be feeding them to school age kids at lunch time. Which could help the school districts with their stretched budgets.

Yet, it's morally wrong to do so. Even though they are similar to Brussels Sprouts.

[edit on 28-12-2009 by Kaploink]

reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 10:23 PM by ManBehindTheMask

reply to post by watcher73

Youll try to find the flaw in ANYTHING that doesnt coincide with your logic on vegetarianism........

That is the FLAW in your logic.......the same logic you use to justify your eating plants over animals.........is the same reason that people who eat meat AND plants find it..............illogical........

its elementary really

reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 10:25 PM by watcher73

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
reply to post by watcher73

Youll try to find the flaw in ANYTHING that doesnt coincide with your logic on vegetarianism........

That is the FLAW in your logic.......the same logic you use to justify your eating plants over animals.........is the same reason that people who eat meat AND plants find it..............illogical........

its elementary really

I eat meat. Nice try though.

However the logic of vegetarianism is pretty clear. Which is why you attacked me and not the facts.

Good game.

reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 10:25 PM by pepsi78

Originally posted by LocoHombre
reply to post by pepsi78

hair= dead cells, nails= dead cells, etc., etc.

come now the veggies are now trying to find things "wrong" with the OP's logic now.

It's asbsurd, for pain to exist there needs to be a nervous sistem, there is no other way. Plants are compose of living cells but those cells are not connected to a nervous sytem. Even if there was information there is nothing to proccess it.

Other then chemical reactions that are set off by the plant there is nothing.
Chemical reaction does not equal pain, I can feel pain because I have a brain that tells me it's hurting, because the byte I get gets an impulse that go's to my brain.

Who are these people anyway that invented the notion of plant pain?
I wonder.

reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 10:33 PM by ManBehindTheMask

reply to post by watcher73

LoL you call that an attack?

And what facts........your fact about there being fungus on pluto that we need to survive?

Weak

nice try , trying to make yourself a victim.......now can we get back on topic?

reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 10:42 PM by watcher73

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
reply to post by watcher73

LoL you call that an attack?

And what facts........your fact about there being fungus on pluto that we need to survive?

Weak

nice try , trying to make yourself a victim.......now can we get back on topic?

You were never on topic.

Lets take a look at your logic.

You claim that the flaw in my logic is finding flaws in logic I dont agree with?

Most people would call this "due diligence". You never pointed out an actual flaw in my thinking. You simply babbled on about my logic being flawed because I found flaws. In essence you did what you accused me of doing, only I didnt, and you did.

Where did I make myself look like a victim? No where. You made an assumption...the exact opposite of being logical and then attacked me, even though your assumption was wrong.

My point about vitamins from algae on Pluto apparently flew so far over your head that it hit Pluto, knocking a plume of vitamin laden algae off the surface forever clouding your thinking.

We'd be on topic if it werent for cholesterol laden brains like yours starving for oxygen and itching for a fight.

Now, back to my cheeseburger.

reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 10:42 PM by Absum!

Originally posted by misfitoy
reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd

Meh, I think it's a matter of who or what you want to believe at this point...

VEGdaily

"Perhaps before writing today’s New York Times article, “Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too,” writer Natalie Angier should have come over and met my dog and my plant. Maybe she would have noticed a difference".

"Seems to me there’s a monumental distinction between a brainless, nervous system-less, plant instinctively reacting to its “predator” (insects, in the example Angier gave) by irritating it, compared with a sentient being (complete with a brain and nervous system) screaming as she or he is literally shoved into the slaughter line. If my dog was shoved into a slaughter line, she’d scream, too. If my plant was, it would just sit there".

The VEGdaily article is actually pretty entertaining to read.

Meh, yet another thread ripped off from a MSM rag ends up as an "Original" thread on ATS.

This 24 year vegetarian repeats MEH!

reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 10:44 PM by wx4caster

reply to post by pepsi78

actually...

plants respond to injury. plants respond to stimulation. how do you know that plants cannot feel pain? Beaus they dont have a fleshy nervous system? plants have other means of communicating injury.

When people feel so compassionate that they are willing to let themselves die because they dont want to hurt something, i feel sorry for them.

if your life means less than the life of a cow or pig or a plant, then i dont know what to tell you. Humans have been eating animal flesh for a long long time, and only in recent (last few hundred years if that) human history has it become a moral issue.

If it is about pain... well the pain of hunger is a pain too. I think it really boils down to the thought of slaughter that causes the issue. It is easy to eat the steak that has been cut and prepared and wrapped at the grocer, it is another thing to kill the animal and butcher it and clean it and all that yourself. When you coorelate the fact that humans and cows have some similar anatomies (your butticks would be a ham and so on) then it begins to make some queasy.

I personally feel that to me, MY life is most important over that of a cow or pig or goat or lamb(or brussel sprout) and i have no problems pouring the ol A1 sauce on a big ol slab of steak, and going to sleep that night full and content.

reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 10:46 PM by Chett

Everytime I read about this subject and the claim of vegans about animal pain and loving the earth and all I start wondering about the worlds carnivores .. I mean maybe we should just go ahead and kill all of the foxes in the world to save the rabbits and the squirrels?
I mean where so you draw the line here? Bears are omnivores, they do kill the poor fish and they do have dietary choice, should we do away with them?
Oh but wait a minute, those fish eat smaller fish ...

I am so confused.

reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 10:49 PM by watcher73

I personally feel that to me, MY life is most important over that of a cow or pig or goat or lamb(or brussel sprout) and i have no problems pouring the ol A1 sauce on a big ol slab of steak, and going to sleep that night full and content.

If you felt your life was so important then youd probably be a vegetarian.

Science has shown that its better for the environment and for your body. Both of which correlate very strongly to your life.

reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 10:54 PM by pepsi78

actually...

plants respond to injury. plants respond to stimulation. how do you know that plants cannot feel pain? Beaus they dont have a fleshy nervous system? plants have other means of communicating injury.

Information does not equal pain, you need a brain to do that to take what is being comunicated and turn it in to pain.
Plants are just cell after cell, there is nothing there except that.

When people feel so compassionate that they are willing to let themselves die because they dont want to hurt something, i feel sorry for them.

I think that is not necesary, there is alot of vegetation out there.

if your life means less than the life of a cow or pig or a plant, then i dont know what to tell you.

It's not that ,when there are alternatives, and cut the plant from the list.

Humans have been eating animal flesh for a long long time, and only in recent (last few hundred years if that) human history has it become a moral issue.

Yes because we as a species need to evolve, I think it's primitive to eat meat. It's a hypocricy to our moral views. I'm a human being , I preach and teach about ethics and morals but I eat flesh. It's what we are.
We need to change.

[edit on 28-12-2009 by pepsi78]

reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 10:54 PM by passenger

Originally posted by pepsi78
Other then chemical reactions that are set off by the plant there is nothing.
Chemical reaction does not equal pain...Who are these people anyway that invented the notion of plant pain?
I wonder.

Um, if you do a little research you’d find that human pain is just a description for a complex set of chemical reactions that occur from a stimulus (generally a destructive one). When you get hurt, the cells in the affected area start pumping out chemicals that start a chain reaction to provoke a protective response in the organism (you). Therefore, at its most fundamental level, human pain and plant pain is not so very different.

Just because humans have a different method of transmission (nerves) doesn’t mean that the basic process is not the same with, arguably, the same result. Just because we have a nervous system doesn’t make us superior. How very vegaphobic of you to make assertions to the contrary.

[edit on 28-12-2009 by passenger]

[edit on 28-12-2009 by passenger]

reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 10:55 PM by wx4caster

If you felt your life was so important then youd probably be a vegetarian.

Science has shown that its better for the environment and for your body. Both of which correlate very strongly to your life.

i dont suppose you would mind showing me exactly how it is better for my body and for the environment why it is better to stray from meat?

i mean, we are designed (or bred to, designed leads to other argument/debate) to eat meat, thus the dental structure, the types of stomach acids and so on. I understand that we dont digest red meats well, but that is because most people eat WAY more than we are supposed to (a serving is about the size of a deck of playing cards, not a huge plate...)

and i am certain that if there were not meat eaters cultivating the earth of standard omnivores, there would be over population which would lead to disease and so on, which would lead to WAY more suffering and pain...

So... on that note, some supporting evidence for your statement please?

(edit to fix quote thingy)

[edit on 28-12-2009 by wx4caster]

reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 10:58 PM by pepsi78

I further feel the need to post an intresting article regarding plants.
There is no evidence of plant suffering, it's made up by people that hate vegetarians.

tabish.freeshell.org...

As a plant molecular biologist with quite a few refereed papers on the subject of cellular communication in plants, please allow me to debunk the unsubstantiated mythology described above. Plants have no *need* to feel pain? Ridiculous.
When a plant is attacked by an herbivorous insect, might it not be in the best interest of the plant to mobilize its chemical defenses in other parts of the plant in anticipation of further insect attack? When a leaf is infected by a pathogenic fungus, might the rest of the plant wish to bolster its chemical and enzymatic defenses against the spread of the pathogen? News flash -- the plant *would* benefit, hence the development of a systemic (throughout the plant) response to local tissue damage by herbivores and pathogens. (Many) references available upon request. It might easily be argued that *because* plants can't move they need effective chemical defenses and effective detection and communication. This is the case. You may doubt the sensory and integrative abilities of plants, so I invite you to spend a few weeks in my lab and learn the truth. Plants don't have nerves, since they don't share a particularly recent common ancestor with animals. Plants feel tissue injury and respond quickly, precisely, and with an effective battery of defenses. They don't feel *like us*, but it would be a mistake to say that they *don't feel*.

Here we have the authority of logic, science and "truth" being imprecated against the sorry state of AR nescience and "mythology". Yet, no single published book, or paper in a scientific journal, has been cited as indeed making this claim that "plants feel pain". Sure, there is interesting evidence about plants reacting to local tissue damage and even sending signalling molecules serving to stimulate certain chemical defenses of nearby plants. But what has this got to do with supporting the only morally relevant claim worth considering, namely that "plants FEEL AND SUFFER from pain"? Where are the scientific references for this putative fact?

reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 10:59 PM by Spiramirabilis

reply to post by Chett

I am so confused.

don't be - it's not complicated :-)

I'm a human - I choose not to eat animals

it's a choice

it's a personal choice - and though some people seem to want to jump on vegetarians (not sure why exactly) it is just that - a personal choice

I don't have to eat meat to survive

other animals do - that's natural

reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 11:02 PM by wx4caster

Information does not equal pain, you need a brain to do that to take what is being comunicated and turn it in to pain.
Plants are just cell after cell, there is nothing there except that.

and what are we? we are just cell after cell. each cell is different and has different fuctions, but we are still just cells...

I think that is not necesary, there is alot of vegetation out there.

there is alot of free roving animals that need to be culled as well...

It's not that ,when there are alternatives, and cut the plant from the list.

and the next step is synthetic protiens and vitamins, to save every living thing.

its the cirlcle of life, not to be coy or silly, but the food chain is an important part of the balance for any ecosystem

Yes because we as a species need to evolve, I think it's primitive to eat meat. It's a hypocricy to our moral views. I'm a human being , I preach and teach about ethics and morals but I eat flesh. It's what we are.
We need to change.

on what are you basing the need to change? why do we need to change? because it is primitive? we are not talking about how we build something... we are talking about basic needs, and these basic needs are food, water, and shelter. they are primitive needs, but still fundamental.

we are meant to eat. if we dont eat, we will die. our very design is that we are meant to be omnivores. we have already evolved (so scientists believe) as our appendix is thought to be for consuming RAW meat. at least we cook it and put sauce on it now.

reply posted on 28-12-2009 @ 11:04 PM by pepsi78

Um, if you do a little research you’d find that human pain is just a description for a complex set of chemical reactions that occur from a stimulus (generally a destructive one). When you get hurt, the cells in the affected area start pumping out chemicals that start a chain reaction to provoke a protective response in the organism (you). Therefore, at its most fundamental level, human pain and plant pain is not so very different.

Yes and none of that would be possible without a brain.
No brain, no pain. Because the brain has to proccess the chemical compound and take notice of what sort it is then send out a signal, then cause pain, just like an orgasm, pain happens in the brain. You think it hurts you there, but it's all in your mind. By stimulating the brain in varios forms it has been shown that different reactions, pain can be induced in exact areas of the body without even touching the hurting spot.

[edit on 28-12-2009 by pepsi78]

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