Was it worth it?

This question is mainly directed to those on this board that support the war against Iraq.

To get Turkey on board and secure a northern front it has cost the US taxpayer $26 billion in aid and grants,a damaging split within NATO,A diplomatic scuffle over early Turkish entry into the EU,and probably most damaging of all,allowing 80,000 Turkish troops to occupy northern Iraq after,of course,the fighting has been done.After holding Kurdish democracy,under the no-fly zone protection,up as an example.The USA appears happy to allow a oppressive occupation of Kurdish territory thereby forfieting moral integrity before the invasion.

My question is simple.Was it worth all of that to open an extra front?

We can easily accomplish the objective without Turkey. Personally, I would have been more of the opinion to have them just stay out of it, and launch our planes from carriers, Qatar, Saudi, etc. Besides, after a few errant scuds had hit on Turkey's soil, they'd be begging for assistance. I for one, am sick of seeing my taxpaying dollars go to bribes and blackmail to countries who won't play ball...I say screw 'em, we don't need them...

As far as the money during GW 1 whole lot of refugees entered Turkey as a result of the war. the US had agreed in help but never did. As far as joining the EU I really see not problem with that. Turkey is part of NATO in relation to being oppressive it�s about the most permissive society in the Middle East. They will be there to keep order and have considerable experience in respect to this. Turkey has been a strong ally of the US since WW II we had nuclear weapons there pointed at Russia, during the Stalin regime. As far as they�re religious orientation they can best be described as secular. The Turks are one of our principal allies in the region. And personally would compare them to the South Koreans in relation to being someone we can trust.

I don't see the problem

It's a lot of money but I don't blame them. They stand to lose like they did after the first war. Besides, it's the American way. How did we get the Brits to come along so cheaply?

The money given to them will simply come back into this economy, anyway. As a matter of fact, they could have cut out the middleman and the U.S. could have paid Sikorsky to build 6 new HH-53's for them, something Turkey has been wanting for a few years but haven't been able to buy because of their economy which has been very crappy.

As far as a problem with Turkey being handed the Kurdish area of Northern Iraq, I do see a problem. The Turks hate the Kurds. The Kurds have the same feelings for the Turks. The Turks don't fill their own helicopters full of holes. I can imagine the Northern portion of Iraq becoming very uncomfortable and dangerous for the Kurds.

TC that is a reasonable consideration, the Kurds are Shiites and the Turks are probably the most secular Moslems in the world. Baghdad is also secular and the decision to place Turkish troops in Baghdad, to be honest must wait until it actually conquered. My impression is Turkey would welcome such a change in status. And perhaps it is better for those troops, which have been assisting the Kurds until now. To be the leaders during the transition which will follow the defeat of Saddam Hussein.

This seems to be a reasonable decision

Turkey wouldn't like to see the kurds, who are sunni I believe, have their own independent nation. But, I've seen kurd reps on TV and it's been written numerous times they just want Saddam out, they understand their role, won't look for independence, etc,etc. And aren't their a bunch of assyrians up there also?

In terms of cost though, once we remove Saddam we won't have the cost of containing him.

actually guys, a muslim is a muslim. they don't really acknowledge the difference. (the difference mainly being the shiites believe the imams to be divine and free from sin and the sunni's believe only Allah is divine).

i suppose some Kurds could be Sunni-but, they are Kurdish first. and the only thing on their minds right now is independance. they were making progress toward that goal in N. Iraq. i suppose they will join the Shiites/Iran to fight off occupation now that it doesn't suite their ends to back the US. the Bushies are thinking they can keep iraq whole and they prolly sealed that with this move to keep the Kurds in check.

it's bound to be messy.

"How did we get the Brits to come along so cheaply? "

its not cheap remember we now get to lecture the american government on whatever we want

after what happened with the last gulf war I think its only fair enough that they get aid, might suck that the american taxpayer bares the brunt of this but with the preferential trading status they will get I`m sure that both countries people will get some benefit from this.

There is a BIG difference between believing that Jihad is a war of ideas and words (sunni), vs. Jihad being an actual war to kill all the infidels (shiite)... This is the difference between those kids who go to school every day, vs. those who spend the day training with AK-47's and learning how to make home-made bombs to blow up busses...

they don't really acknowledge the difference? my god, Saph! and many, many kurds understand they can not have their independence - they'll live in Iraq and be happier w/ our Saddam.

this is not a religious discussion so i'll keep it brief. muslims don't run around saying "what kinda muslim are you?" to them a muslim is a muslim. and yes shiites are more prone to strap a bomb to their body and become a martyr...but the Iraqi's we are going to be fighting will be mostly sunni's and just a willing to die and take a few along with them. the only difference in doctrine between the two is the divine right of the imams....ah, forget it. look it up.

B88: this is just my opinion. the Kurds want independance so, one would assume they will back the side that makes it more likely they will achieve it. they backed Iran against Saddam for that very reason even though Saddam had US support.

Actually, I think the whole thing is a terrible waste of money, and lives, imagine if we would put this money in our own countrys protection at our borders and reworking and tracking of current aliens in America. By now we would be secure at home, or a lot closer than we are now. Hey, but its only Americas money and lives, (or so it seems is the thinking of the leaders of the land.)

Saphronia if you see a Moslem woman in a mini skirt you can be certain of several things. My point is they do not have to ask what they wear identifies them in relation there belief.

They backed Iran because they were Shiites just as the Iranian government was during its war against Iraq. They supported Iran because that country supported government rule according to that system of belief.

from what i've heard a large portion of the "money" given too turkey is in loan guarantees. so it's not really money out of the taxpayers wallets.

will there be problems? yes. however when compared with the problem of Sadam and his murderous regime they do seem minor. we will cross that bridge when we get there though.

have faith my friends, whether you agree with this war or not please support our troops when it all goes down, remember they are just following orders.

Toltec: i never heard of a muslim woman--sunni or shiite wearing a mini-skirt. the head is to be covered outside of your home and you are to dress modest..like in most christian religions...short skirts and exposed backs and shoulders are not allowed. maybe i took what you said too literal...still, a good muslim woman would not expose herself that way.

Originally posted by AegisFang
from what i've heard a large portion of the "money" given too turkey is in loan guarantees. so it's not really money out of the taxpayers wallets.

Perhaps...Perhaps not. How many countries have already been allowed to default loans from the US in the past? If they think they can get away with it, countries will *continue* to try defaulting.

Originally posted by AegisFang have faith my friends, whether you agree with this war or not please support our troops when it all goes down, remember they are just following orders.

I agree that our soldiers should get our support...After all, I was in the military myself during the start of the 1st Gulf War. It's the orders coming from the current Commander-in-Chief that I question the most...


[Edited on 2-3-2003 by MidnightDStroyer]

No way!!! You must ask, if the schools and cities can't get the money they need than why can the human rights abusers of Turkey's government get it? This is our money here. Isn't giving someone money to get something out of them bribery? And isn't using threats and demands for money to get something from someone else called blackmail? It is really sad that this type of corruption goes on right in front of the whole world's eyes and it is rallied on to victory. Why does this world turn it's head to this activity? Probably because it doesn't directly effect them. Just like the War in Israel that is almost as corrupt than our war on Iraq. If we are not going to war with Iraq than I don't know who is.