The Steorn magnetic motor replication by JL Naudin

Originally posted by djcubed

oh yes you can. Battery is just a source of DC, right? Whatever electrical energy (pulsed, I assume) comes out of the device can be rectified and made into DC as well. At that point in time, you flip the switch so the energy is looped. And you can drain the excess energy to your heart's content, and move the battery back where it belongs (in storage).

Yes, if you regulated the DC back into the motor to remain constant I suppose you can eliminate the battery it would be practical for testing, but I would think ANY OU device would use a battery bank to store its power. People have only just started testing this on there own this week... I'm going to give it some time.

Wait, so you are saying that the energy is already looped into the battery?

Meanwhile the guys at Steorn say this about the next round of tests...

During January we will be doing a sequence of live experiments - these will be streamed and then posted on our YouTube channel. The sequence is as follows: (1) Confirming that all the electrical energy input into an eOrbo interaction is output as heat. (2) Confirming that there is no change in the domain energy of the components that make up an eOrbo interaction. (3) Input to Output measurements - confirming eOrbo is Over Unity. Thats the sequence - if you have any (rational) requests with respect to the first of the above three experiments, please post them in this thread.

Steorn Forum Here

Please feel free to give them your input directly. It's doesn't seem to me that they are trying to hide anything.

Well, I went to this forum and one observant participant asked whether a calorimeter will be used (the right question!). The answer was "no". So item (1) is already bogus, and without it (2) and (3) are moot.

Sheesh, what a load of crap!

reply to post by buddhasystem

Whoa, whoa, whoa hossy!

They are trying to confirm that all energy is converted to heat without using a calorimeter?

Buddhasystem, I actually need your input on this: is there some method of accurately measuring heat energy besides using a calorimeter that I don't know about?

This is starting to sound bogus now...

TheRedneck

reply to post by buddhasystem


I'm saying you can eliminate the battery with more work and impracticality for your device... Not going to go through this all again.

And please let me quote directly from Steorn about their calorie testing...

No the live experiments will not use a calorimeter due to practical reasons - instead Joules 1st Law will be applied to calculate heat ouput. However we will be publishing full calorimeter tests before the end of January - you will be able to download these from our site.

I still don't understand how you can discredit them without testing yourself. No one testing the device yet has dismissed it. In fact they say that they are finding the exact same results that Steorn boasts. I will remain skeptical but for none of the reasons you have stated.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by buddhasystem

Whoa, whoa, whoa hossy!

They are trying to confirm that all energy is converted to heat without using a calorimeter?

Buddhasystem, I actually need your input on this: is there some method of accurately measuring heat energy besides using a calorimeter that I don't know about?

This is starting to sound bogus now...

Measuring heat is calorimetry by definition (even semantically - calorimetry means "measuring heat"). If you don't use a calorimeter, you don't measure jack. That much is clear.

reply to post by djcubed

Joule's First Law is simply Q = I²·R·t. How exactly does one measure the heat energy in Joules without using a calorimeter? And how does one then use the equation for verification without said measurement?

Yeah, sounding bogus... I had high hopes until this...

TheRedneck


[edit on 12/30/2009 by TheRedneck]

reply to post by buddhasystem

If you don't use a calorimeter, you don't measure jack.

That's exactly what I thought. It looks like you had this one pegged from the start.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by djcubed
And please let me quote directly from Steorn about their calorie testing...

No the live experiments will not use a calorimeter due to practical reasons - instead Joules 1st Law will be applied to calculate heat ouput. However we will be publishing full calorimeter tests before the end of January - you will be able to download these from our site.

Please see my previous post. Joules law simply allows one to calculate the amount of heat based on current and resistance, but that's it! To demonstrate that the amount of heat is what it should be means you have to first to measure the heat and then see if it matches the Joules law. They don't do that. It's pretty stupid, actually. It's like saying "relativity is correct - let me calculate E=mc2. Hey presto, I just used my calculator. Surely it is correct! I didn't have to measure anything!"

reply to post by buddhasystem


So when they say they will be publishing their calorie tests we just should take that as a lie?

And from what I know about heat... The calorie is outdated in science and mostly replaced by the Joule. Although you can convert between the two. That's really as far as I go with heat.

reply to post by djcubed

Yes, the calorie is outdated and really only used in dietary context now. The Joule is the preferred unit. But a calorimeter is not just something that measures calories, despite the name. It measures energy. What they are doing, according to what I have read, is simply calculating the expected results without verifying them.

You cannot measure heat produced with a calculator. It takes a calorimeter, just as you cannot measure distance with a calculator, but instead need a measuring tape.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by djcubed
reply to post by largo

 

A device that spins in a box for eternity it a useless piece of junk... a device that can charge a power source as well as spin in a box for eternity is priceless. They are trying to prove that they can keep their power source fully charged while using the same source to power their generator. Without the battery you have a useless child's toy. The battery makes it a power source. Do you consider a pinwheel a power source? It's a toy until you add a battery to store the power.

And like I said... they can show you the exact state of that battery from experiment start to stop. That will be the easiest way to prove that their device works. I want to see the report from the charge controller... load vs. charge on just the battery would put an end to all of this. Unless of course we get into them fudging numbers... but that's a whole other can of worms I'm not even touching right now.

As I see it... this is the real deal from what they claim. They are not hiding anything at least from what we know... and it has been duplicated. Really ATS what more do you need right now? I'm paying close attention to this one. I'm sure there is a much better way of producing free energy that TPTB wont be giving us... so for now this looks pretty good. Something you might start seeing pop up on Ebay this year like the HHO generators last year. We will see, but for now I don't understand how someone can shut this down without first testing on their own. Let's leave the testing to the people that test because right now they are saying it works.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! You have said your words very well indeed. Yes people, listen to this man, he knows what he is talking about. He has clearly articulated the reasoning of both Bedini and Bearden. These men are not stupid and they have thought about this a long time. Bedini is really an electronics genius... what other boy would make his own solid-state components from scratch using raw materials he dug out of the earth? Come on! That is clearly the markings of a man destined to do something unusual and potentially great!

Anyhow, great job at boiling this down to the simple logic it deserves!

Star for ya!

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by djcubed

The battery makes it a power source.

There are plenty of other ways to demonstrate power production besides charging a battery. Why not replace that battery with some lights? That would be a good demonstration of energy being produced and would not lend itself to speculation that the lights are being used to power the motor.

Any power source raises questions. This is just a part of the demonstration process to obtain funding. Monsanto does not need funding; they can develop their products directly, all in house. If one needs funding, they will have to abide by the rules of demonstration, and the first rule is: everything that can be questioned, will be questioned.

TheRedneck

Once again, IF YOU TAKE THE TIME to study the Bedini videos, you will see that you can't just take the back EMF pulses and store into usable energy that is smoothly delivered to something like a light.

In his earlier models, he has the pulses collect in one capacitor, which then discharges into another capacitor about 1 every second. Then, the charge built up in the second capacitor discharges into the battery, which Bedini maintains is not stored in the battery, but only serves to CAUSE THE BATTERY TO ABSORB ENERGY FROM THE VACUUM.

This process, he strongly maintains, makes the battery operate in a totally opposite way, improving its charging/storage capacity over time, becoming stronger over time, as a load draws energy from the battery, the current actually goes down!

[edit on 30-12-2009 by downisreallyup]

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by djcubed
reply to post by TheRedneck

 

Again... You can't take the battery out of the equation...

oh yes you can. Battery is just a source of DC, right? Whatever electrical energy (pulsed, I assume) comes out of the device can be rectified and made into DC as well. At that point in time, you flip the switch so the energy is looped. And you can drain the excess energy to your heart's content, and move the battery back where it belongs (in storage).

Listen man, you really don't know anything about this. Just your comment about the battery JUST being a DC source shows how blind and deaf you are to what is being shown and said. I will try to say it LOUD AND CLEAR, and hopefully your eyes will allow you to read the words, and to have that thick paradigm filter in your brain penetrated by them:

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!!!!!! The battery is NOT just a source of DC! Since you know nothing about the existence of ZPE, you have no basis for really understanding this, but if you COULD comprehend that we have two kinds of energy here... let's call it DARK ENERGY and LIGHT ENERGY, if that makes you feel more comfortable (you have read about those in Physics mags, right?) Now, you can't just use Dark Energy in its present form. It has to be CONVERTED, CHANGED, MODIFIED, SWITCHED to a usable form.

Are you still following? I know this really blows all those THICK paradigm barriers you have erected in your brain, but please, for your own growth, try to break through them! You can do it, if you only TRY!

Okay, for all the trolls out there who are also watching, repeat after me:

"THE BATTERY IS FOR CONVERTING ENERGY FORMS!"
"THE BATTERY IS FOR CONVERTING ENERGY FORMS!"

That's right, keep saying it, and it should sink in sooner or later.

(sigh... no wonder it has taken mankind so long to regain what he once knew...)


[edit on 30-12-2009 by downisreallyup]

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by djcubed
And please let me quote directly from Steorn about their calorie testing...

No the live experiments will not use a calorimeter due to practical reasons - instead Joules 1st Law will be applied to calculate heat ouput. However we will be publishing full calorimeter tests before the end of January - you will be able to download these from our site.

Please see my previous post. Joules law simply allows one to calculate the amount of heat based on current and resistance, but that's it! To demonstrate that the amount of heat is what it should be means you have to first to measure the heat and then see if it matches the Joules law. They don't do that. It's pretty stupid, actually. It's like saying "relativity is correct - let me calculate E=mc2. Hey presto, I just used my calculator. Surely it is correct! I didn't have to measure anything!"

They said they WILL measure the calories and publish the results before the end of January, so what are you complaining about? They said they would not do that during the live demonstrations because of practical reasons only, but that measurements would be forthcoming. What part of that didn't you understand?

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by djcubed

Yes, the calorie is outdated and really only used in dietary context now. The Joule is the preferred unit. But a calorimeter is not just something that measures calories, despite the name. It measures energy. What they are doing, according to what I have read, is simply calculating the expected results without verifying them.

You cannot measure heat produced with a calculator. It takes a calorimeter, just as you cannot measure distance with a calculator, but instead need a measuring tape.

TheRedneck

Yes, and if you READ the entire statement from them, they said they WILL provide a report of their actual measurements, but that they will not do the measurements during their live demos.

reply to post by downisreallyup


It's not going to stop me from trying to providing valid counterpoints to his nonsense.

And about this calorie nonsense... I'm not going to explain how J.P. Joule was able to calculate heat generated by electronics without a calorimeter... that's for your physics teacher. Let me at least say this... It doesn't involve dropping the orbo into a bucket of water to check the temperature change. Here's to Mrs. G's old homemade bootleg calorimeter.

But for those of you who are lazy like me...
en.wikipedia.org...

Nothing in this equation will be speculation... they are all going to be constants.
Current
Resistance
Time

reply to post by downisreallyup


downisreallyup, what you're talking about are Bedini motor/generators, and I agree with you that in those systems, the secondary batteries are used to convert and store Radiant energy. According to B+B anyway.

But this Steorn motor, and JLN's motor, appear to be doing something different. These aren't generating or storing any power, they are just electromagnetic motors. They run some current into the electromagnets, and then the electromagnetic fields accelerate the wheel. There's no output battery at all here.

Originally posted by MajorDisaster
reply to post by downisreallyup

 

But this Steorn motor, and JLN's motor, appear to be doing something different. These aren't generating or storing any power, they are just electromagnetic motors. They run some current into the electromagnets, and then the electromagnetic fields accelerate the wheel. There's no output battery at all here.

In the actual orbo there is... in the home testing they have not got to the point where they have attached generators yet. They have only started testing at home within the last week or so, so for home testers it will take a little while to make.

Originally posted by downisreallyup

Yes, and if you READ the entire statement from them, they said they WILL provide a report of their actual measurements, but that they will not do the measurements during their live demos.

Okay, but don't you find it kind of suspicious that they refuse to take the measurements during the live demo? That was kind of the whole point of the live demo in the first place, wasn't it?

reply to post by downisreallyup

Once again, IF YOU TAKE THE TIME to study the Bedini videos,

There's no need to yell. I have looked it over now. Instead of videos, however, I concentrated on the technical details.

The following assessment is based on this schematic:

While I do not pretend to know all of the details of operation yet, I can comment on a few aspects. The dual battery arrangement is identical to a standard voltage doubler. During one half-cycle, the drive battery powers the right side of the lower transformer. This (I assume) provides the power to attract the nearest magnet and cause the wheel to spin. It also introduces a pulse in the left side of the lower transformer, which turns on a transistor that allows the circuit from the drive battery to operate. The device would not be self-starting because of this.

On the other half of the cycle, power from the right side of the lower transformer is reversed, sending current into the charge battery, charging it. This is the back EMF that has been discussed, and it should be identical in voltage to the forward EMF used to charge the transformer, since the timing is the same on charge and discharge.

The neon bulb appears to be an indicator of operation only, as it is simply directly powered from the left side (driven side) of the lower transformer.

The upper coil is somewhat of a mystery, since it is not included on other drawings. It does nothing more than turn the rotating magnetic fields into power, which is then rectified by the bridge rectifier and delivered to the main circuit. One would think that this would serve as a drag on the operation. It does appear to be somewhat of an improvement on an earlier design, since the notes mention that it improves operation of the motor. The two switches S1 and S2 appear to be connected to this new upper coil, and apparently are designed to operate in a cyclic manner, with one on while the other is off.

Nowhere do I see anything that says there is zero-point energy being used through the batteries. A couple of capacitors would theoretically do just as well, but would have to be pretty big to operate a full-size unit. This could be partly why the design isn't taken seriously: the design makes it very difficult to accurately measure the amount of actual energy taken from and stored in each battery.

If I were to make a suggestion on a prototype for this, it would be to build it using approximately 3 volts instead of the 12 used. This would lead to a smaller wheel, of course, but 'supercap' capacitors could be used instead of batteries. These can have values up to 10 Farads, at a reasonable cost, and the device should be able to be scaled appropriately for this.

The prototype would be constructed so as to use rechargeable 'D' cells or supercaps. That way, operation could be verified using both with batteries and without batteries.

I must say, it is an intriguing design. I cannot state that it does not work.

TheRedneck