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Military and Unlawful Orders

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posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 12:47 AM
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The thread was closed down and I never got a chance to respond to some of the posts.

Here is what I posted


Part I don't understand is why did they sign up for the military in the first place.

Nobody put a gun to their head.
Nobody drafted them.

They Volunteered

Did they not know that there was a chance they would go to war?

Did they not understand that they may have to do exactly what military personnel are trained to do?

Two options in war, kill or get killed. And in order to avoid getting killed you have to do what is necessary to secure the environment.

I respect what you all are saying, but the military is trained to do a job and if you aren't willing to do that job, then you shouldn't have joined the military in the first place.


First, my piece wasn't aimed toward keeping these guys from speaking out. They have just as much right to speak out as any other American. My intent is that people go into the military without thinking about the consequences.

The military is not a cakewalk. It isn't about getting money for college. It isn't about being able to retire in 20 years. It isn't about family tradition.It isn't about getting a job because the economy is bad or because the recruiter promised somebody a 4-8 year vacation in the Garden of Eden.

It is about being willing, ready, and able to be trained and sent off to some foreign land at the drop of a dime. It is about going into combat and noncombat missions that have been signed off on by the upper echelon of government. Ultimately, it is about war. Do or Die!

Army's mission


The Army’s mission is to fight and win our Nation’s wars by providing prompt, sustained land dominance across the full range of military operations and spectrum of conflict in support of combatant commanders. We do this by:

* Executing Title 10 and Title 32 United States Code directives, to include organizing, equipping, and training forces for the conduct of prompt and sustained combat operations on land.
* Accomplishing missions assigned by the President, Secretary of Defense and combatant commanders, and Transforming for the future.


www.army.mil...


The Army's primary mission is to provide necessary forces and capabilities to the Combatant Commanders in support of the National Security and Defense Strategies.


www.army.mil...

Let's look at some info on what type of people go into the military. I will focus on the enlisted personnel.

Race

Whites are well represented, blacks slightly overrepresented, and Hispanics are underrepresented.



Education

According to the data, our military is not made up of a bunch of uneducated Americans. Overwhelming majority have a High School diploma or above.



Recruitment

Most come from middle or upper class neighborhoods.



Region

About 43% come from the South. A Southern Military tradition may account for this high percentage.



All Graphs from here

All of these graphs and the info on that research site tells me that the people joining the military are more than smart enough to know what they are getting into. It also reflects that some of the stereotypes we see about the military on many threads on ATS are unfounded.

Once again, my intent was to point out that people should think about what the military is really about befor joining. It wasn't intended to quiet the critics or those people who feel the wars are illegal, or that troops are following an unlawful order.

I ask that everybody who reads this thread pass on this advice to any American thinking about joining our military. Don't do it because the recruiter promised you something. Don't do it because it is a family tradition. Don't do it because your unemployed. Don't do it so you can retire in 20 years. Don't do it because you don't know what to do with your life. Don't do it because you want the GI Bill.

Do it because you are willing to go to war and give your life, if necessary, to defend this country and what she stands for.

Show them these pics and see if this is what they really are willing to witness. Ask them if they could live with themselves and their consciousness if he or she was a part of such hell.

WARNING SOME PICS ARE VERY GRUESOME

THINK TWICE OR MORE BEFORE CLICKING

mindprod.com...

www.chris-floyd.com...


Is the Afghanistan and Iraq war worth fighting for? IMHO, NO.

I believe the dogs, CIA and intelligence community, should be let loose. I just feel they are better able to accomplish the mission than a military that has one hand tied behind its back. Unfortunately, many will disagree due to the recent history of torture and abuse. However, hasn't torture and abuse always been a part of our intelligence community? Not only our intel, but the intel community all over the world.

Finally, I want to hit one last issue. It is illegal to follow an unlawful order. A thank you to JAYinAR for bringing this up in the other thread.

JAYinAR is correct. But is this exactly what every soldier in uniform is doing in Iraq and Afghanistan this very instant?

Very debatable IMO. The two wars have Congressional approval and funding.

What makes these two wars an unlawful order?

Who exactly determines whether an order is lawful or not?


According to About.com, the Manual for Courts-Martial says, “An order requiring the performance of a military duty or act may be inferred to be lawful and it is disobeyed at the peril of the subordinate. This inference does not apply to a patently illegal order, such as one that directs the commission of a crime.“

Who decides whether an order is lawful or not? It’s certainly not the soldier who decided not to follow the order. About.com puts it this way: “Ultimately, it’s not whether or not the military member thinks the order is illegal or unlawful, it’s whether military superiors (and courts) think the order was illegal or unlawful.”


dicksworld.wordpress.com...


Joseph Heller’s famous novel Catch-22 is based on the premise that common soldiers can never beat the system. Regardless of the rights or wrongs of the matter, when someone has to pay, it’s going to be your average GI Joe (or Jane), not the military and certainly not the civilians charged with overseeing the military.


hnn.us...

Case about an Unlawful order

Seems like the average military person is damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Imagine a soldier disobeying an order that he or she believes is illegal only to be court martial and sentenced.

If the wars are indeed based on an unlawful orders, what do you expect the troops to do?

Should the military take matters into their own hands as far as what is unlawful and what is not?

The orders come from the top and trickle down. Sure, some orders like a Sargent telling his squad to fire on civilians is easy to recognize as unlawful.

However, How does a regular average military guy determine whether a presidential, congressional, or DOD order as unlawful?

What proof could somebody obtain to prove that such order is unlawful?

What options does the military have and is that option realistic?

Please keep the thread civil and feel free to express yourself no matter where you stand.



[edit on 28-12-2009 by jam321]




posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 12:49 AM
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Feel free to post it here its the main thread i started days ago. If you want to contribute and help it remain on front page as well


Amazing Speech from an Iraqi War Veteran
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 28-12-2009 by OpTiMuS_PrImE]



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 01:37 AM
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reply to post by jam321
 





Seems like the average military person is damned if you do and damned if you don't.



How true.




Imagine a soldier disobeying an order that he or she believes is illegal only to be court martial and sentenced.


This part worries me. If a revolution ever broke out in America, how many soldiers would obey orders trickling down from the government and how many would defend the country from the government?




The orders come from the top and trickle down. Sure, some orders like a Sargent telling his squad to fire on civilians is easy to recognize as unlawful.

However, How does a regular average military guy determine whether a presidential, congressional, or DOD order as unlawful?


Again, very true. Even the military is so drastically compartmentalized that seemingly harmless missions could be the first step towards something diabolical.




Is the Afghanistan and Iraq war worth fighting for? IMHO, NO.


Could not agree more.

Great presentation


S&F



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 01:42 AM
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Originally posted by jam321

WARNING SOME PICS ARE VERY GRUESOME

THINK TWICE OR MORE BEFORE CLICKING


IMO anyone who is in favor of war should be forced to look at the face of reality. If every retarded American who thinks war is a good thing was forced to look at some of the pictures you linked to, very few Americans would support us being the world police.



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 01:46 AM
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reply to post by jam321
 


While I disagree the military refusing certain kinds of people while forcing them to pay for it through taxes, I do agree with the authority the military has over the soldiers. Theres this ignorance from movies, possibly from the media in general that the military is all about action, recession proof work and ofcourse "respect" but it aint all that shiny. From what I understand it can be a job not for the faint hearted, and you will not get the towns welcome automatically as some folks may assume. It is a occupation that requires instant commitment, and also the willingless to pull the trigger. Some folks are just too ignorant at this fact and jump in withou thinking it through, only to complain they were "forced" or "tricked" later on.

Good post Jam.



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 02:25 AM
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GROSS... Haha of course I looked at those pictures because you had a Warning posted. Why wouldn't I? Damn psychology and curiosity....



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 03:25 PM
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reply to post by Happyfeet
 



If every retarded American who thinks war is a good thing was forced to look at some of the pictures you linked to, very few Americans would support us being the world police.


I personally won't call Americans retarded no matter which side of the issue they are on.

Sometimes I wonder if making people look at pictures like this would change anything. Violent images like these seem to be a common thing on movies and video games and I think many people would just merely equate the pictures to some Hollywood flick.

Appreciate everyone's contribution.



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 04:16 PM
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reply to post by jam321
 

Thought this was a very interesting thread... Everyone considering the military would do well to bear in mind what you've written here:


The military is not a cakewalk. It isn't about getting money for college. It isn't about being able to retire in 20 years. It isn't about family tradition.It isn't about getting a job because the economy is bad or because the recruiter promised somebody a 4-8 year vacation in the Garden of Eden.

It is about being willing, ready, and able to be trained and sent off to some foreign land at the drop of a dime. It is about going into combat and noncombat missions that have been signed off on by the upper echelon of government. Ultimately, it is about war. Do or Die!


S&F



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 04:26 PM
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Not to take this thread off track but. The regional recruitment map sure favored the red state blue state map to me. Do you think that recruitment in the south and mid west is because of conservative/patriotic values?

Or just an interesting coincidence?



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 05:55 PM
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daddyroo45, I think the reason just might be what you pointed out.

I searched around to find a valid reason but most seem to point to family tradition and patriotism.

Would be interesting if we could locate a poll or survey as to the reason people joined the military.



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 06:29 PM
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I will tell you why I joined the Marines.

(1999)I joined the military because I wanted to challenge myself, I wanted to push my own boundries. I wanted to make something out of my life instead of being a robot watching American Idol and not giving a damn about anything. Eventhough I knew I wasnt going to be a "lifer", I still joined because I saw it as a challenge untouched. They broke me, only to bring me back up. I will tell you the truth right now, I have never, ever felt like I was more on top of the world as much as I did during those days, I felt untouchable and it felt really good(until I F*cked up and it all came down crashing on me). I got locked up for committing several different charges, all of which were of my own doing. I was in for 3 years before I got a BCD and locked up. I regret some of the things that I did, but it was in no way themilitarys fault. They held me accountable just like they would any other man, and they made an example with me to the other marines that if they didnt obey orders, and decided to do whatever the hell they wanted, that they would get the same punishment I got(going to the brig, filling sandbags day/night and ultimately a discharge). Now I can not work for the federal govt, I cant even work for the Post Office. I am not allowed on ANY military base anymore, and if caught doing so, I could face other charges.
Whats the point in all of this?
Point is...I still hold the military up in high regards. They were always there for me whenever I needed them(even when I Fcked up). The majority of the people who were in the military were and are good people.
This misconception that people in the military are nothing but uneducated dimwitted trigger happy thugs is nothing farther than the truth.
They are Good people, with LOTS of honor and courage, we all should be greatful that they are there doing the things that many of you wont, or couldnt do.


Edit-spelling


[edit on 28-12-2009 by Common Good]



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 06:45 PM
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reply to post by Common Good
 



This misconception that people in the military are nothing but uneducated dimwitted trigger happy thugs is nothing farther than the truth.
They are Good people, with LOTS of honor and courage, we all should be greatful that they are there doing the things that many of you wont, or couldnt do.


Appreciate your story and the gratitude you show for our military.

You no doubt have my respect.

Semper Fi



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 06:55 PM
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reply to post by jam321
 


Thanks man, and thank you for all you have done as well.
Its sad though that many will never truly understand what it is like to venture into a new world, and thats what being in the military is like, being in another world. People in the military are held to higher standards because they are the ones who are supposed to represent what Americans stand for.
Many dont understand this concept though, because they are totally unaware of what the military is really about. Stories from Grandpa and Uncle Rick only go so far in letting one know what the military is all about.
IMO- One must be part of the organization in order to truly understand, and those that havent, and sit here and yap about how bad our soldiers are, could not be more ignorant in the matter.



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 09:50 PM
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reply to post by Common Good
 


I thank you for your service, and the courage to accept the consequences of your actions, and not blame anyone but yourself... That is indeed the Mark of Responsibility.. (which in my humble opinion is severly lacking in todays society!!!)
I will also go so far as to say this to you, "Once a Marine, Always a Marine" Semper Fi, and God bless..

oh, by the way I am not a Marine. Just an old Army Ranger 2nd btn 75th reg.( 19De9, Cavalry Scout)....LOL (Fought side by side with the Devil Dogs a few times though)

[edit on 28-12-2009 by SideWynder]

[edit on 28-12-2009 by SideWynder]



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 10:09 PM
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reply to post by jam321
 


I do agree with you that anyone joining the military, be it the US. or any Military that is all volunteer. Should seriously consider the consequences!!!
It is not, nor should it be a "cake walk" When the SHTF. I do no feel comfortable having "sensitive" soldiers protecting my "backside"...
I want intelligent, mature, hard driving, independant fighters. both on the field and behind it!!!

I got a bellyfull of crybaby kiddies,Years ago, that wanted to "play rambo" and when the SHTF, they all wanted to go home to mommy and daddy, they all decided that they only joined for the GI bill, nothing better to do, thier gilfriend got pregnant,retirement, or medical benefits.... ETC..

The military is not a game... You sign a contract,You take an Oath, You willingly accept certain obligations.. And you will be held to them all! and that may mean that you just may have to take a life, or give yours!!!

It is not something that should be entered into lightly!!!!
Been there done that.....

[edit on 28-12-2009 by SideWynder]

[edit on 28-12-2009 by SideWynder]

[edit on 28-12-2009 by SideWynder]



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 10:27 PM
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reply to post by SideWynder
 


Damn man, I really appreciate that, much respect back to you as well.
Ranger huh? Good Sh@t! Semper Fi!
Thanks for the kind words



posted on Dec, 29 2009 @ 12:23 AM
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I'm new to the forum but i've been reading articles from the sight for years. Been in the army for about 7 months now, still new as heck to all of it lol, but i have to agree with a lot thats been said. its a big decision to make. i joined because i want the brotherhood that comes with the job. already i've met people who know ill always be friends with and i honestly believe they would put their life on the line to save my ass as i would for them. as far as accepting the danger my favorite saying, i didn't join the army to die for my country, i joined it for them to die for thiers lol.

[edit on 29-12-2009 by the_jester31]



posted on Dec, 29 2009 @ 09:56 AM
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reply to post by the_jester31
 


Welcome to the forum.


as far as accepting the danger my favorite saying, i didn't join the army to die for my country, i joined it for them to die for thiers lol.


Let's just pray that nobody has to do die.



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 01:49 PM
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reply to post by jam321
 


Hey Jam. Interesting thread...here are some stats that might help complete the picture..


This first one speaks to confidence in leadership...which in a round about way speaks to the perception of whether the mission is "lawful" in a given soldiers eyes.

FYI - The survey consisted of 3,400 officers holding the rank of major, or lieutenant commander, and above....and was from Febuary 2008.


The survey also asked officers their opinions on the governmental leadership of the nation. On a scale of one to 10, with 10 saying they have a great deal of confidence, the study reports these numbers:

Presidency - GW Bush: 5.5 (16 percent had no confidence at all)
CIA: 4.7
State Department: 4.1
Veterans Administration: 4.5
Department of Defense: 5.6
U.S. Congress: 2.7

blog.newsweek.com...

Also...see here is a survey from a few years ago summerizing reasons for joining...the link isn't working as an insert but I am sure you can google it up if you want to check the numbers...

This was a RAND corporation survey conducted in 2000
it was a CHECK ALL THAT APPLY so some folks checked more than one...these are not percentages.

Notice where "family tradition" ranks...in answer to your observations earlier.


Main Reasons for Joining Military

Money for College, education repayment, benefits etc. 57.5
Travel and New Experiences 52.7
Test yourself Physically or Mentally 39.4
Challenging or Interesting work 32.9
Personal Growth and Maturity 32.3
Pay and allowances 29.6
Retirement pay and benefits 28.9
Time to figure out what to do 16
Get away from family, personal situation or Hometown 9.4
Military tradition in family 7.1


Also...there are more recent surveys...conducted by miltary recruitment offices, but they are suspect for many reasons. Having someone in the military ask you why you want to enlist when you are enlisting is prone to get some fairly BS answers..."To serve my country, Sir!!"....as opposed to having a third party do an anonymous survey of recruits.



posted on Dec, 30 2009 @ 03:40 PM
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reply to post by maybereal11
 



This first one speaks to confidence in leadership...which in a round about way speaks to the perception of whether the mission is "lawful" in a given soldiers eyes.


It may speak about whether a mission is lawful. But I have to wonder if it reflects more on the way the wars are being handled.

Good find nonetheless.

I can see where GI Bill is probably the primary reason. College is expensive and over the years the military has increased the GI BILL.

I also know that here in Texas, many of the people I know that have gone in have done so because another family member did so. That is not saying that it is their primary reason. It just one of the factors they blurt out.

Thanks for your contribution. Very interesting info you added.



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