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The History of Marcion proves the bible is not God's word

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posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 12:20 AM
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Marcion of Sinope was the first person to build a cannon, the Pauline Epistles, the Gospel of Luke and the rest was out. The bible today is a reaction to him. The bible today was a reaction to what Marcion was doing.

I challenge anybody to find anywhere, where god said build this book and this is gong to be my word. He didn't say that, that's not in the bible.

The bible doesn't talk about how to build it. it doesn't talk about what kind of tests to use to know if a book's from god or not from god. It doesn't instruct to build a cannon and it doesn't tell people how to build a cannon. People did this of there own accord. They decided to build a bible, they built it using there own standards of what should go in it and what should not go in it. And they did it to a reaction to a man who was building his own bible and was just editing away.

en.wikipedia.org...

www.answers.com...


The view for which Marcion was most soundly criticized was not only that he denied any connection between the Old and New Testaments but that he also rejected the Old Testament in its entirety. The God of the Old Testament, his studies led him to assert, was a God of Law and Judgment, completely different from the God of Love and Mercy, the Father of Jesus Christ, as revealed in the New Testament. The former, "Creator God," held mankind in a deceitful grasp from which the "Redeemer God" sought, through the mission of Jesus, to save him.

These views, expounded in Marcion's "Antitheses," led the Marcionite Church to develop its own canon of Scripture, a fact that played no small part in forcing the Christian Church to regularize its own canon.


The church of the time freaked out, they said we're not going to allow that, we need to make our own book or else people are going to start using this book. They made their own book, and that took centuries and centuries and finally they hammered out the bible. Most christians don't know this.

But what im talking about with these changes to the bible, this isn't some atheistic view presented, this is known by Christians theologians and christian scholars. Textural criticize know this stuff and it's public knowledge, you can go out and find it. It's just not publicised by the church because it casts doubt on the book itself.


[edit on 27-12-2009 by andre18]




posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 12:24 AM
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I have always liked Marcion. He was one of the first Gnostic theologians of note. I tend to agree with him.The only issue that he and I may have some issue with is that I think the Ten Commandments have validity.

[edit on 27-12-2009 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 03:06 AM
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reply to post by andre18
 


Afew good points but in the end it all comes down to faith, and theres no use trying to argue someones faith with them over ATS.



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 03:49 AM
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reply to post by Ghost in the Machine
 


But many are forcing others to maintain faith in what can only truly be described (by myself) as a lie.
How does having faith in a lie help people?



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 03:50 AM
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Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why, Bart D. Ehrman
This book talks about that situation quite a bit. He was a guy who made a lot of money in business and decided he wanted to use his fortune to push his own ideas. He basically just went through the Christian writings and took out whatever he didn't like and added a bunch of his own stuff. This would have been alarming to the normal Christians and rightly so.



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 04:08 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 04:37 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 07:22 AM
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reply to post by Matthew Dark
 


It only goes to show the ignorance of he subject.

The problem with any religious writing is that there is not one original witness to anything that supposedly happened, meaning that all the books and teachings are nothing more than hearsay, and worded in such a way as to control the masses using fear, ie, if you dont do this, or if you dont do that, your punishment will be this, etc.

I have studies much of the bible, at a time when i toyed with the idea of becoming a Christian, the problem is as i have said in other posts, the teaching, books and letters, leave a lot to be desired, and when you read between the lines, all you are getting is a book compiled by a group of men who picked and chose which parts they wanted in and which parts they didn't. If the bible was in anyway the perfect word of god, then these people wouldn't have had a choice, meaning that every thing ever written by anyone to do with go, and the Christian religion should be in the bible, it would be a few volumes in size and i should think it would take a lot longer to go through it. and even then it would not be complete, as has been shown some of he more recently found scriptures were used to make fires to keep people warm, those people no realising what they were burning. Not to mention the parts that have yet to be found, buried in the desert or in some mountain somewhere.

The control and power has moved on since the days the bible was written, the power hungry now use the media of today, the modern bible, the TV, and the movies, music,and other mediums, which when you think about it is no different to the old and new testament, using fear and deception to control the masses.

I wonder what the world will look like in 2000 years time, will Lady gaga be seen as a disciple? and will will Michael Jackson be a profit? Hmmm



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 08:13 AM
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Marcion's cannon was not the only one floting around at the time. At the other extreme and a little later, the Montanists claimed the revelataions were still coming and were adding new books to the bible left and right,

By the way, to be a bit pedantic, strictly speaking, Marcionism is usually considered similar in some respects to Gnosticism but not actually Gnostic -- his world view, while considered "heretical," was more in line with the "orthodox" types than the Gnostics; he wasn't into the idea of the Demiurge and eminations, for example, nor "seek within for the ultimate" and that sort of mysticism that generally characterised Gnosticism.

Its also worth noting that even today the official Roman Catholic bible contains some books that aren't in the King James version...also, its a bit tricky to claim that Marcion was the "first" to create a cannon because the Jews certainly had the idea of a cannon down pretty solidly with the Tanach and so on....also the Hermetic corpus and other mystery writings that have been lost suggest well-defined cannons of great antiquity.



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 08:55 AM
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reply to post by Ghost in the Machine
 


You know i might agree with you there but there's got to be some Christians who've come across this thread and are actually questioning their beliefs for the first time. I mean there's got to be some who never knew the bible was made up the way it was.

When it comes to these changes to the bible you have doctrine wars going on and you have no original manuscripts, no authors versions, you have no idea where most of these books came from. You don't know who wrote them, known of them are signed.

Basically what you get is a book by comity



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 09:00 AM
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even mooses tablets where mans written word

2 d line



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 09:09 AM
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reply to post by silent thunder
 


Well to correct myself, he's the first person i know of who actually got the idea to build a cannon, to say let's start collecting books and let's make a bible, or though it may be true that he wasn't the first one to come up with that idea, he was critical in being one of the first in putting together what he would consider the first bible.



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 09:45 AM
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Originally posted by andre18
reply to post by Ghost in the Machine
 


You know i might agree with you there but there's got to be some Christians who've come across this thread and are actually questioning their beliefs for the first time. I mean there's got to be some who never knew the bible was made up the way it was.

When it comes to these changes to the bible you have doctrine wars going on and you have no original manuscripts, no authors versions, you have no idea where most of these books came from. You don't know who wrote them, known of them are signed.

Basically what you get is a book by comity


Friend, often times that's where willful ignorance comes in. Most of the 'devout' would rather not know for sure where this stuff comes from because, ultimately, they'd be pretty upset to consciously realize that they've been wasting their time by worshiping a lie.
It's a pretty heavy blow to the ego and usually, those who are so dependent on religion in the first place have such fragile egos/self-images, that something of this magnitude might do irreparable damage to their psyche.
It's a sad cycle that hopefully will conclude before too long...



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 10:32 AM
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reply to post by andre18
 





When it comes to these changes to the bible you have doctrine wars going on and you have no original manuscripts, no authors versions, you have no idea where most of these books came from. You don't know who wrote them, known of them are signed.


You obviously agree there is a God. A God would most certainly try to
communicate with us.
We know he can not be in the presence of sin.
A God would be able to get what ever message across to us that he wanted to. I know of no other attempt at communication. If it were in
error I have enough faith to believe he would mend it . It is scripture
and the living word. You fail as far as I'm concerned.



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 11:24 AM
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You obviously agree there is a God.


You are obviously mistaken. I am an atheist, i reject the idea of god and the supernatural in all its forms.


A God would most certainly try to communicate with us.



You're confusing yourself. Let's say there was a god, god has had over 250,000 years to 'communicate' with us, but chose to wait until 2000 years ago. Makes no sense.


We know he can not be in the presence of sin.


I don't. Can i ask you, why can't god be in the presence of sin? answer me that.


A God would be able to get what ever message across to us that he wanted to. I know of no other attempt at communication.


I know a few but i'll give you one as an example, how about being in the presence of everyone all at the same time across the globe. That way it can be recorded as event the whole world witnessed at the same time and not just in one area in the middle east. Makes sense to me.

It's kind of funny god goes to this one place in the world and sacrifices himself to himself etc etc for the sins of man, but, the rest of the world is completely in the dark about this until the christians are pleased to inform the world of the event by mass genocide aka - the crusades. There's a good drinking joke.


If it were in error I have enough faith to believe he would mend it . It is scripture and the living word. You fail as far as I'm concerned.


Epic fail - does it not seep in? any of the op??? any of it at all???

[edit on 27-12-2009 by andre18]



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 11:47 AM
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reply to post by randyvs
 



It is scripture and the living word.


Some people just don't get it.



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 11:53 AM
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i recall hearing of this guy in school studies...



from the Wikipedia article:

Main article: Marcionism
Study of the Hebrew Scriptures and documents circulating in the early church (the New Testament canon had not yet been authoritatively delineated and closed) led Marcion to conclude that many of the teachings of Christ are incompatible with the actions of Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament. This led to Marcion developing a dualist system of belief around the year 144.[8]

Marcion affirmed Jesus Christ as the saviour sent by God (the Heavenly Father), and Paul as his chief apostle. In contrast to the nascent Christian church, Marcion declared that Christianity was distinct from and in opposition to Judaism, a radical view given that Christianity was not yet established as a fully-fledged religion separate from and independent of Judaism. Not only did Marcion reject the entire Hebrew Bible, he also argued for the existence of two Gods: Yahweh, who created the material universe, and the Heavenly Father of the New Testament, of which Jesus Christ was the living incarnation. Yahweh was viewed as a lesser demiurge, who had created the earth, and whose law, the Mosaic covenant, represented bare natural justice: i.e., an eye for an eye. Jesus was the living incarnation of a different God, a new God of compassion and love, sometimes called the Heavenly Father. The two Gods were thought of as having distinct personalities: Yahweh is petty, cruel and jealous, a tribal God who is only interested in the welfare of the Jews, while the Heavenly Father is a universal God who loves all of humanity, and looks upon His children with mercy and benevolence. This dual-God notion allowed Marcion to reconcile the apparent contradictions between the Old Testament and the narratives of Jesus' life and ministry.

Yahweh, according to Marcionite thinking, is a legalistic entity. After creating the world and humanity, Yahweh grew to hate mankind for its sin. The Old Testament God thus felt justified in punishing mankind by causing humans to suffer and, eventually, to die. In a strictly legal sense, this was a sound approach.
The Heavenly Father showed Himself to be far more compassionate when He revealed Himself through His Son, Jesus Christ.
The Heavenly Father showed His love for humanity by healing sickness and performing miracles.
Finally, He offered His Son for crucifixion.
By sacrificing Himself, Jesus, as the Heavenly Father made flesh, was paying the debt of sin that humanity owed to the old God.
This sacrifice wiped humanity's slate clean, and allowed humanity to inherit eternal life.

Marcion's canon consisted of eleven books: the Gospel (of Marcion), and ten of Paul's epistles. All other epistles and gospels of the New Testament were rejected.[9] Paul's epistles enjoy a prominent position in the Marcionite canon,
[...]


i lean toward agreeing with his views of the Jesus morality play,
its a lot better than the main-stream Christianity & the Apolostolic Catholics

i reckon that the Roman era when crucifixion was big, was the only era where a death could be glorified...
now theres water-boarding & sleep-deprivation as an alternative to Capital Punishment...and wheres' the glory in a Lethal Injection?
hanging might become a 'Saddam Sloppy' scene, where the victim is accidently be-headed,
firing squads are for milirtant regimes,
gas chambers are associated with Auschwitz & nazis,

nope! there's no longer a good & glorious way to die & resurrect any more,
so the Palestine of old, with Romans occupying the Judea, was the prime-time era


thanks



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 11:56 AM
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reply to post by andre18
 





Epic fail - does it not seep in? any of the op??? any of it at all???

Oh so you are an atheist? Your OP dosn't lead one to believe so.
No sorry I get nothing from your OP.
Even more so coming from an atheist.
How any one can believe such a complex system that is evident through out the universe everything being so logical.
Systems and logic do not happen by chance. Not by a far cry.
The only confusion I could ever have, would be as an atheist, trying to make that fly.
You are right I don't get it. Never will.


[edit on 27-12-2009 by randyvs]



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by randyvs

Oh so you are an atheist? Your OP dosn't lead one to believe so.


You do realize you're the only one right?


No sorry I get nothing from your OP.


I'm going to explain this to you now, as slowly and simply as possible.

Before the bible was constructed, it was just the books themselves by themselves. No one book compiled of many. When people started to edit their own books, they began choosing exactly what they did want and didn't wan't in their holy book. Every thing else could burn, it didn't matter. In fact that's what happened with most books that threatened the church's own edited holy book.

Now, it's not like the church decided one day to make one main book one day, they did so as a reaction to Marcion because he was constructing his own bible

( this is a copy paste) The church of the time freaked out, they said we're not going to allow that, we need to make our own book or else people are going to start using this book ( Marcion's book). They made their own book. If it wasn't for Marcion and others like him, there wouldn't be a bible to day at all.

So you see ( and please let this sink in) because the bible was put together the way it was: edited missing books burnt etc it's ridiculous to say it is the word of god when it was simply people altering it deciding what they wanted the word of god to be. Do you understand that?

So basically what you got back then was a book made up by a comity. These are books that agree with us, we have the money and the power - this is what we're going to claim is the holy book. And you build up a population that says, yep yep that's the holy book and eventually it stampedes out and these other Christian beliefs, these other early Christianity's that have virtually vanished, they became the heretics. The heretic is just a label the big church outs on the little church.

[edit on 27-12-2009 by andre18]



posted on Dec, 27 2009 @ 02:36 PM
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This doesn't prove anything. Marcion believed in Gods revelation of himself in Jesus. He thought the OT to be unimportant or dispensable because it was surpassed by the NT. He is wrong because (as the Catholic Church puts it) "the inspired writings of the OT are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers in them too, also the mystery of our salvation is present"(CCC121)The old Testament is made manifest of the new. Anyone who reads the OT sees this. As far as him writing a new cannon, didn't he use all the ones the church used (and less) but with his name on it?
Anyway, I cant see how this proves the bible is not Gods word.



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