Our Republic Is Broken, A Constitutional Army Requested

Originally posted by downisreallyup
Oh, my goodness, such naivety. Why don't you look into the dangers of capitalism also? How do you think America has become an oligarchy of powerful corporations? You don't have capitalism any more in the US, you have corporatism. Pure capitalism leads to corporatism since all the little companies can't resist the temptation to sell out to the bigger guys, until eventually there are only two huge contenders for any market sector. Then, because these corporations wield so much economic power, they can control the governments. Also, the rich corporate leaders can run for office and get into the place where they have direct control.

Also, pure capitalism breeds extreme selfishness amongst the people, and it also has no conscience whatsoever regarding the societal needs, or the needs of the weaker members of society.

Pure socialism is even worse because it destroys the heart of the people and leads to government tyranny.

So, in either case, you get government tyranny or corporate tyranny, neither of which serves the interests of the people at large, but only a small select group of elite.

Wisen up and learn from history and you would do well to avoid classic mistakes.

I'm afraid it is you who is naive! Corporatism is the purchase of law. It is the mutation of a limited government to a government which limits its peoples' freedom. If a government remains limited, you have nothing to fear. If you can still freely engage in commerce with your fellow man, you have nothing to fear. If the law is put up for sale, the system will fail. Don't blame capitalism. Blame the failed checks and balances that have turned Congress into a shopping mall for special interests!

[edit on 29-12-2009 by Guidance.Is.Internal]

[edit on 29-12-2009 by Guidance.Is.Internal]

reply to post by downisreallyup


Wow, for a split second I thought perhaps you really wanted to have an honest discussion, but then I actually took the time to read what you wrote, and all I learned is I was correct about you before. What a joke, but at least you're not a disappointment anymore!


--Charles Marcello

[edit on 29-12-2009 by littlebunny]

Originally posted by Guidance.Is.Internal

Originally posted by downisreallyup
Oh, my goodness, such naivety. Why don't you look into the dangers of capitalism also? How do you think America has become an oligarchy of powerful corporations? You don't have capitalism any more in the US, you have corporatism. Pure capitalism leads to corporatism since all the little companies can't resist the temptation to sell out to the bigger guys, until eventually there are only two huge contenders for any market sector. Then, because these corporations wield so much economic power, they can control the governments. Also, the rich corporate leaders can run for office and get into the place where they have direct control.

Also, pure capitalism breeds extreme selfishness amongst the people, and it also has no conscience whatsoever regarding the societal needs, or the needs of the weaker members of society.

Pure socialism is even worse because it destroys the heart of the people and leads to government tyranny.

So, in either case, you get government tyranny or corporate tyranny, neither of which serves the interests of the people at large, but only a small select group of elite.

Wisen up and learn from history and you would do well to avoid classic mistakes.

I'm afraid it is you who is naive! Corporatism is the purchase of law. It is the mutation of a once limited government to one that limits behavior to benefit the few. If a government remains limited, you have nothing to fear. If you can still freely engage in commerce with your fellow man, you have nothing to fear. If the law is put up for sale, the system will fail. Don't blame capitalism. Blame the failed checks and balances that have turned Congress into a shopping mall for special interests!

Well, yes, that is true, but how do you keep the government limited? How do you prevent slick presidents from being elected who can sign executive orders into place that increase their power? How can you prevent members of congress from meeting over Christmas, late at night, so they can pass a bill giving away their task of coining money?

Also, when profit becomes the main motivator, you will soon see things that aren't profitable and yet must still be paid for, and unless there is also a "social" element to government, many needed things will not get done, because many things are just not profitable, and yet they are still necessary.

I have studied all the forms of government for over 30 years, and am even working on a book/website that is designed to promote a solution to the ills inherent in all historically tried forms of government. A society is not just a group of individuals who happen to live in the same spot. There are individuals with individual needs, wants, and offerings, and there is also the group which has group-oriented needs/requirements. A 100% profit motive leads to a society that is quite heartless and callous. This is evident from history.

Being a software engineer for most of my life, I also built a sophisticated computerized society model that allows me to test the effects of my proposals, economically, politically, and with regards to human fulfillment and progress. I have incorporated some very unique features into this proposal, and I will be quite interested to get feedback once I make it public.

Originally posted by littlebunny
reply to post by downisreallyup

 

Wow, for a split second I thought perhaps you really wanted to have an honest discussion, but then I actually took the time to read what you wrote, and all I learned is I was correct about you before. What a joke, but at least you're not a disappointment anymore!


--Charles Marcello

[edit on 29-12-2009 by littlebunny]

Nice deflection man, but you are one who has shown your colors. I took the time to give you solid rebuttals to your comments. Why don't you take the time to do the same? Take my answers and show where they are wrong. Are you afraid because you know you can't? I find it hard to believe that such a brave guy would back down from going point-for-point with me. Come on, show how your language does not indicate exactly what I said.

You said you wanted to discuss the points of your speech, and that is exactly what I did, sentence for sentence. Let's see you prove me wrong. I do not see where I did anything but give you honest and logical refutation of your assumptions and language.

Originally posted by littlebunny
reply to post by downisreallyup

 

Wow, for a split second I thought perhaps you really wanted to have an honest discussion, but then I actually took the time to read what you wrote, and all I learned is I was correct about you before. What a joke, but at least you're not a disappointment anymore!


--Charles Marcello

[edit on 29-12-2009 by littlebunny]

Come on man... explain why you think that people should only be peaceful ONE TIME. Go ahead, and explain that. Tell me how you are not trying to bait people into an armed conflict. Explain that also. Don't just tell me that I don't understand. Quote your words, and ELABORATE on them. Explain yourself, just like any decent debater MUST do.

Originally posted by downisreallyup
Well, yes, that is true, but how do you keep the government limited? How do you prevent slick presidents from being elected who can sign executive orders into place that increase their power? How can you prevent members of congress from meeting over Christmas, late at night, so they can pass a bill giving away their task of coining money?

Well, you know the answer to that. In theory, you just prevent government from doing anything beyond protecting basic freedoms. All proposals beyond this are null and void.

Also, when profit becomes the main motivator, you will soon see things that aren't profitable and yet must still be paid for, and unless there is also a "social" element to government, many needed things will not get done, because many things are just not profitable, and yet they are still necessary.

I disagree! Anything valued by society will have a price. If it isn't valued by society, it is worthless, and the endeavor should be abandoned.

I have studied all the forms of government for over 30 years, and am even working on a book/website that is designed to promote a solution to the ills inherent in all historically tried forms of government. A society is not just a group of individuals who happen to live in the same spot. There are individuals with individual needs, wants, and offerings, and there is also the group which has group-oriented needs/requirements. A 100% profit motive leads to a society that is quite heartless and callous. This is evident from history.

A 100% profit motive, limited by immutable laws which prevent abuse of freedom, is nothing to fear. Under this system, the only way to get rich is to provide people with something they value.

Being a software engineer for most of my life, I also built a sophisticated computerized society model that allows me to test the effects of my proposals, economically, politically, and with regards to human fulfillment and progress. I have incorporated some very unique features into this proposal, and I will be quite interested to get feedback once I make it public.

I'm also an engineer, and one of my friends is working on something similar using the CUDA framework. I'm very interested to know what you find. The devil is in the assumptions, eh??

Originally posted by Guidance.Is.Internal

Originally posted by downisreallyup
Well, yes, that is true, but how do you keep the government limited? How do you prevent slick presidents from being elected who can sign executive orders into place that increase their power? How can you prevent members of congress from meeting over Christmas, late at night, so they can pass a bill giving away their task of coining money?

Well, you know the answer to that. In theory, you just prevent government from doing anything beyond protecting basic freedoms. All proposals beyond this are null and void.

Also, when profit becomes the main motivator, you will soon see things that aren't profitable and yet must still be paid for, and unless there is also a "social" element to government, many needed things will not get done, because many things are just not profitable, and yet they are still necessary.

I disagree! Anything valued by society will have a price. If it isn't valued by society, it is worthless, and the endeavor should be abandoned.

I have studied all the forms of government for over 30 years, and am even working on a book/website that is designed to promote a solution to the ills inherent in all historically tried forms of government. A society is not just a group of individuals who happen to live in the same spot. There are individuals with individual needs, wants, and offerings, and there is also the group which has group-oriented needs/requirements. A 100% profit motive leads to a society that is quite heartless and callous. This is evident from history.

A 100% profit motive, limited by immutable laws which prevent abuse of freedom, is nothing to fear. Under this system, the only way to get rich is to provide people with something they value.

Being a software engineer for most of my life, I also built a sophisticated computerized society model that allows me to test the effects of my proposals, economically, politically, and with regards to human fulfillment and progress. I have incorporated some very unique features into this proposal, and I will be quite interested to get feedback once I make it public.

I'm also an engineer, and one of my friends is working on something similar using the CUDA framework. I'm very interested to know what you find. The devil is in the assumptions, eh??

I will write more when I wake up tomorrow, but I just wanted to add one thought here... yes the devil is in the assumptions, and you made a very key statement... you said:

Under this system, the only way to get rich is to provide people with something they value.

You see, that is where it all breaks down. People are very easy to manipulate, to make them value things that really shouldn't be valued. Look, all this talk of how great 100% capitalism is, is just pure bunk. It is theoretical, based on false assumptions. The true assumption is this: when people are at ease and peace, they get lazy and let their guard down. When that happens, cunning men find ways to "hook the fish with tasty looking lures." There will always be people with higher intelligence, and more cunning craftiness, and these are the guys who will find ways to sell people things they don't need... how? By appealing to their greed and vanity, and this is exactly what we have seen.

If you think that the corporatism we now see is an aberration, I really don't think it is. I have looked at this in great detail, and studied the techniques used by advertisers, techniques that are rooted in very powerful mind manipulation techniques. All this competition is NOT PURE, and it is VERY EASY to abuse it. All the people who are supposed to guard the system will only do it if they are paid, and once they are paid, they will want more. Everyone wants more pay with less work required. I have studied the psychology behind this kind of world, and it is riddled with potholes at every turn... there is no system of society that has been used to date that is not laden with negative features that will eventually tear it down. If you think I am wrong, please provide precise reasons, and I will give you my answer later when I get up. For now, time for sleep... 3:15 AM.

Originally posted by downisreallyup


Nice deflection man,

You purposely created a dishonest attempt to tear apart the parts of my letter/speech you want to hold onto/against, while at the same time ignoring who the real THREAT IS and what THEY WOULD DO as propaganda... and then say I'm deflecting! Well, you're damn right... When someone comes at you as dishonestly as you did, it is well within a person rights to tell that person to go straight to hell. Instead I'm going to walk away from you because you just haven't shown yourself to be honest about anything!


--Charles Marcello


[edit on 29-12-2009 by littlebunny]

Originally posted by littlebunny

Originally posted by downisreallyup


Nice deflection man,

You purposely created a dishonest attempt to tear apart the parts of my letter/speech you want to hold onto/against, while at the same time ignoring who the real THREAT IS and what THEY WOULD DO as propaganda... and then say I'm deflecting! Well, you're damn right... When someone comes at you as dishonestly as you did, it is well within a person rights to tell that person to go straight to hell. Instead I'm going to walk away from you because you just haven't shown yourself to be honest about anything!


--Charles Marcello


[edit on 29-12-2009 by littlebunny]

I have been nothing BUT honest, and anybody here in this thread can see that. I just don't happen to agree with you, and I pointed out exactly why. All the other parts of your speech are meaningless if the first part is misguided, so why bother with those? You go back and change your FUNDAMENTAL tactic of "baiting the government to attack you," and then we talk about the other things like the Law of 13. Until you fix the first part, all the other stuff is irrelevant.

And that is 100% honest, straight from my heart. You keep wanting to skip by the concerns I have, instead of addressing them. You are IMAGINING that I am against you or not being honest. Please, will somebody else chime in here and tell this guy that I am only trying to get him to see things rationally? I'm the first to admit that big changes are needed. But just take a look at the unclassified projects that DARPA is working on! Look at them man, and realize what you are up against.

DARPA Projects

Alright, it is clear to me that you are incapable of actually discussing the merits of your initial plans of "peaceful resistance," so there isn't much use I guess in me trying to convince you that I am not against you... and in fact, the ONLY reason I would take my time to write these posts is because I'm desperately trying to keep you from making a huge mistake.

Originally posted by littlebunny

Originally posted by downisreallyup


Nice deflection man,

You purposely created a dishonest attempt to tear apart the parts of my letter/speech you want to hold onto/against, while at the same time ignoring who the real THREAT IS and what THEY WOULD DO as propaganda... and then say I'm deflecting! Well, you're damn right... When someone comes at you as dishonestly as you did, it is well within a person rights to tell that person to go straight to hell. Instead I'm going to walk away from you because you just haven't shown yourself to be honest about anything!


--Charles Marcello


[edit on 29-12-2009 by littlebunny]

And NO, I never denied who the real enemy was, nor did I deny that they would indeed attack you, with clubs, gas, sonic weapons, rubber bullets, and perhaps even real bullets. What I am saying is, you CAN'T beat them by using force. They are VASTLY superior in strength. So you must try to affect change using a wiser course of action, one based on gaining political power, and the support of the MAJORITY of Americans. Any kind of violence will NOT accomplish that. Even a million of you would still be painted as a right-wing whacko conspiracy cabal, and believe me, they own all the media, and they will turn public opinion against your group faster than you can say "Obama."

Originally posted by downisreallyup
You see, that is where it all breaks down. People are very easy to manipulate, to make them value things that really shouldn't be valued. Look, all this talk of how great 100% capitalism is, is just pure bunk. It is theoretical, based on false assumptions. The true assumption is this: when people are at ease and peace, they get lazy and let their guard down. When that happens, cunning men find ways to "hook the fish with tasty looking lures." There will always be people with higher intelligence, and more cunning craftiness, and these are the guys who will find ways to sell people things they don't need... how? By appealing to their greed and vanity, and this is exactly what we have seen.

Absolutely - people are very easy to manipulate. That's why democracy will never work. Promise 51% of the population everything the other 49% owns and they'll take it. It is an inherently unstable system.

I know that's not what you're driving at, though. Sure, some people are duped into buying that penis-extending house, car, boat, whatever. To put a more precise point on it - they're duped into doing something which to a third party, appears counterproductive. However, isn't this simply your own biased judgment call?

For instance, you might look at a balding sack of crap chasing tail in a ferrari and not only take pity on him but rebuke the society/culture/advertiser that drove him to such behavior. However, perhaps that pitiful fellow doesn't care. He's in it for the women, and whatever it takes to get them, then so be it. As sophomoric as the example may be, it points out that our third party perspective is completely arbitrary. Let the man be duped. Let the advertiser profit from his gimick. Let our balding friend think its for his own good. Perhaps if it feeds his head, it is for his own good. After all, how can you define what is in his benefit?

I drink to excess, and have no guilt about it. Should I be stopped? You might eat meat, dairy, and other crap your body wasn't designed to process. Should you be stopped? Let people be.

If you think that the corporatism we now see is an aberration, I really don't think it is. I have looked at this in great detail, and studied the techniques used by advertisers, techniques that are rooted in very powerful mind manipulation techniques. All this competition is NOT PURE, and it is VERY EASY to abuse it. All the people who are supposed to guard the system will only do it if they are paid, and once they are paid, they will want more.

Careful. Abuse implies an injured party. In this situation, the abuse is self-inflicted. A free man can do anything to himself as long as it harms no other. Dangerous territory - you're deep in an alcohol dumping, pornography burning, reefer madness minefield.

Carlos Marcello

While there have been those here in the last few days that have attempted to have a discussion on violent triggers within your plan, you have attempted to shift focus from those very points. Instead you refusing to acknowledge the very existence of said points. You have attempted to discredit the only person wanting an honest debate. You point the finger at him and say he is deceitful when it is you who refuses to acknowledge his concerns. You try very hard to avoid any real debate about the triggers for violence you wrote into your plan. That is the core problem downisreallyup was trying to discuss. Just as I have said this, you will formulate another response that will not address those triggers for violence. You will attack me and come up with clever little lies instead of discussing the points downisreallyip listed. If you can not discuss the points that concern intelligent minds, you will find yourself surrounded by fools. Fools who will tell you that everything is find because they desire your approval. They will let you walk off the cliff onto the rocks below. They will quickly scavenge through what is left and scurry off like rats. I hope you are smart enough to understand that metaphor.

We may need a leader today. You are not that leader. We do not need more lies and deception. Yes you are deceiving by not addressing the issues brought up with your plan. You are deceptive and you are lying. You hate to be called that so much because that is what you are doing. You think that you will give this speech down the road when the time is right? You already gave the speech. That means you are done my friend. The first day you speak a word into the microphone, your words here will follow. Your calls for death and violence will be known. People will know you for who you are. Unlike this message board, you will not have a semblance of control in the real world. You will not be able to deflect and avoid the debate. You will have to explain yourself which you refuse to do here. Why do you refuse to debate downisreallyup? Instead you call his points irrelevant? We do not need another liar or silver tongue. You have proven that you are no different. You have delusions of grandeur thinking that you will somehow lead a revolt. Tell me, in your delusions; are you standing on a stage giving a moving speech to thousands of worshipers? You are the epitome of what is wrong with this world. If you want violence, just say it. Stop being deceptive, answer the questions. If you can’t, you are in fact exactly the problem with our world today. Nothing but a bunch of power hungry liars who will stop at nothing for their own nasty desires. What say you? Are you man enough to address those question that downisreallyup proposed? Or are you all talk and deceit?


[edit on 30-12-2009 by WordsofEzra]

[edit on 30-12-2009 by WordsofEzra]

Originally posted by WordsofEzra
Carlos Marcello

You will attack me and come up with clever little lies instead of discussing the points downisreallyip listed.

Boy, you people sit there in judgment of me and then complain when I ignore your concerns, WOW!!! If you read every statement like yours, all of you people do the same thing. I will not bite, if you people were really honest, which you have not been, you would post your questions and be done. But oh hell no, every single one of you people attack me personally, and of course I am going to over look your comments about my post and go directly to defending myself. Its not polite anywhere to attack what someone said, and then attack them. That is rude, so everything else you said means nothing, nothing! Now, if me pointing that out means I'm attacking you, then so be it, I stand guilty as charged.


Oh… before I forget… let me make this clear… I’m not about to defend myself against every single opinion about what I meant, instead of talking to someone asking me what I meant… Now if there is one among you who understands what I said and WHY I say that, then perhaps we can start having that HONEST conversation!


Have a nice day!


--Charles Marcello


[edit on 30-12-2009 by littlebunny]

I believe it is time… We must show the government We The People can take no more. I believe a Constitutional Army is in order. I believe a peaceful take over of our local governments is in order. I am asking every Constitutional Loving American to stand up, be counted, find the courage our founding fathers have passed down through the generations for this very moment. I am also asking that each of us become an unarmed army, but only, until they use force against us. And they will…

My point is this. In order for the government to understand they cannot continue to defy the will of The People, from President Bush to this current Congress. We must peacefully walk to our local governments in mass, in every corner of our country with complete openness, we must let them know we are coming to close them down. HELL YES! Without local government support our Federal Government is completely and totally powerless. In order for them to understand WE THE PEOPLE are serious about our freedoms and our Constitution, we MUST show the Federal Government the only power they have over us is the power WE THE PEOPLE allow them to have. Yet to think its going to be as peaceful as springtime rays of sunshine would be silly in the extreme. So first we must allow our own federal government to show the world that our FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS A FRAUD on paper and in action! It is being ran by people who give lip service to Freedom, but they truly don't give a damn about freedom… JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER SOCIALIST CONTROLLED COUNTRY DOESN’T WORLD WIDE! We must march peacefully… while what the IRANIAN Government did and continues to do to their own unarmed citizens is still fresh in the worlds mind. Will our own Government fire upon or physically beat us… How will they explain that to the world as they condemn Iran… While We The People are being open and honest… If this speech ever comes to pass, we will tell our Federal Government, and our Local Governments we are coming. Politically… there is no higher a sacrifice then to show those who stayed at home just how evil our Government has become, which will bring them to their feet!


If the government does attack instead of changing… The Federal Governments actions will show the world the truth about this countries takeover by socialist and their unholy alliance with fascism… And then how WE THE PEOPLE will respond after our Fake Government has done to US/WE THE PEOPLE, like Iran is doing to their own, I guarantee Americans will not sit back and do nothing as our government responds with bullets and violence . But you see that speech is letting everyone know what that response could/is going to be. I‘m not going to lie to American Citizens who are tired of our Government destroying this country, regardless of party, by giving them some nonsense about how we are immune in our country to a violent crack down… I wrote, or said what the response is going to be, and how they, THE GOVERNMENT, IS GOING TO ATTACK US! You can be a victim more then once if you want, but I gauran-damn-tee Americans aint gonna be a victim more then once to anybody. And that is something I am saying loud and clear to our Government with that last paragraph.


Whatever happens after we begin marching will be totally on the Government. Change or use Violence, it’s their choice... it’s their choice! Fear cannot keep We The People silent any longer. And neither can the bleeding hearts in this country, those people who tell us Political Correctness is the law. Well that nonsense has brought us to this breaking point, its time grownups start regaining control of this nation and we start having grownup conversations again. That’s what I meant by my speech.


Have a Nice Day!


--Charles Marcello

[edit on 30-12-2009 by littlebunny]

Originally posted by littlebunny

I believe it is time… We must show the government We The People can take no more. I believe a Constitutional Army is in order. I believe a peaceful take over of our local governments is in order. I am asking every Constitutional Loving American to stand up, be counted, find the courage our founding fathers have passed down through the generations for this very moment. I am also asking that each of us become an unarmed army, but only, until they use force against us. And they will…

My point is this. In order for the government to understand they cannot continue to defy the will of The People, from President Bush to this current Congress. We must peacefully walk to our local governments in mass, in every corner of our country with complete openness, we must let them know we are coming to close them down. HELL YES! Without local government support our Federal Government is completely and totally powerless. In order for them to understand WE THE PEOPLE are serious about our freedoms and our Constitution, we MUST show the Federal Government the only power they have over us is the power WE THE PEOPLE allow them to have. Yet to think its going to be as peaceful as springtime rays of sunshine would be silly in the extreme. So first we must allow our own federal government to show the world that our FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS A FRAUD on paper and in action! It is being ran by people who give lip service to Freedom, but they truly don't give a damn about freedom… JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER SOCIALIST CONTROLLED COUNTRY DOESN’T WORLD WIDE! We must march peacefully… while what the IRANIAN Government did and continues to do to their own unarmed citizens is still fresh in the worlds mind. Will our own Government fire upon or physically beat us… How will they explain that to the world as they condemn Iran… While We The People are being open and honest… If this speech ever comes to pass, we will tell our Federal Government, and our Local Governments we are coming. Politically… there is no higher a sacrifice then to show those who stayed at home just how evil our Government has become, which will bring them to their feet!


If the government does attack instead of changing… The Federal Governments actions will show the world the truth about this countries takeover by socialist and their unholy alliance with fascism… And then how WE THE PEOPLE will respond after our Fake Government has done to US/WE THE PEOPLE, like Iran is doing to their own, I guarantee Americans will not sit back and do nothing as our government responds with bullets and violence . But you see that speech is letting everyone know what that response could/is going to be. I‘m not going to lie to American Citizens who are tired of our Government destroying this country, regardless of party, by giving them some nonsense about how we are immune in our country to a violent crack down… I wrote, or said what the response is going to be, and how they, THE GOVERNMENT, IS GOING TO ATTACK US! You can be a victim more then once if you want, but I gauran-damn-tee Americans aint gonna be a victim more then once to anybody. And that is something I am saying loud and clear to our Government with that last paragraph.


Whatever happens after we begin marching will be totally on the Government. Change or use Violence, it’s their choice... it’s their choice! Fear cannot keep We The People silent any longer. And neither can the bleeding hearts in this country, those people who tell us Political Correctness is the law. Well that nonsense has brought us to this breaking point, its time grownups start regaining control of this nation and we start having grownup conversations again. That’s what I meant by my speech.


Have a Nice Day!


--Charles Marcello

[edit on 30-12-2009 by littlebunny]

Okay, since you have taken time to further explain your position, and you have also indicated that you want questions instead of observations, I will indulge that modus operandi and ask you some questions:

1) Why do you think the Federal government is a fraud when it is expressly authorized in the Constitution? The entire debate of whether there should even be a Federal government was thoroughly debated in the Federalist Papers and various responding documents/commentaries.

2) How many people do you think would need to present themselves to the government in order for it to be seen as a "will of the people" and not a fringe group that needs to be suppressed? If 10 million people showed up and taunted the government to attack them, what would the other 290 million people really think?

3) Once the government does attack, as you admit they will, what will the Main Stream Media report about it, how will they spin it, and what will be the impressions made to the VAST majority of the population who rely on the MSM?

4) You say that state governments are needed for the Federal government to have power. How do you see that to be true? The US military reports to the Federal Government, so why do the Feds need the state governments? The Feds print the money, so why do they need the states? The Feds provide the social programs that the people depend on, so why do the Feds need the states?

5) Now, I'm not trying to make you angry here, but my last set of questions is only an attempt to understand your thinking, to see if maybe I have missed something. I am genuinely asking the following questions so I can understand how this is not just a form of strong-arming and terrorism? I mean, isn't that what terrorists do...make demands for total change or else they will cause physical damage?

How is your plan different than a group of people marching into a police station and demanding that the police change how they do things, or else they (the people) will go home and get their guns to force a change? Of course the police will attempt to arrest everyone, which they should do.

How is your plan any different than a man marching into a bar and making demands to the face of a guy who is known for being violent and easily stirred up? Can that man then stand innocent when he is the one who incited the violence?

Originally posted by Guidance.Is.Internal

Originally posted by downisreallyup
You see, that is where it all breaks down. People are very easy to manipulate, to make them value things that really shouldn't be valued. Look, all this talk of how great 100% capitalism is, is just pure bunk. It is theoretical, based on false assumptions. The true assumption is this: when people are at ease and peace, they get lazy and let their guard down. When that happens, cunning men find ways to "hook the fish with tasty looking lures." There will always be people with higher intelligence, and more cunning craftiness, and these are the guys who will find ways to sell people things they don't need... how? By appealing to their greed and vanity, and this is exactly what we have seen.

Absolutely - people are very easy to manipulate. That's why democracy will never work. Promise 51% of the population everything the other 49% owns and they'll take it. It is an inherently unstable system.

I know that's not what you're driving at, though. Sure, some people are duped into buying that penis-extending house, car, boat, whatever. To put a more precise point on it - they're duped into doing something which to a third party, appears counterproductive. However, isn't this simply your own biased judgment call?

For instance, you might look at a balding sack of crap chasing tail in a ferrari and not only take pity on him but rebuke the society/culture/advertiser that drove him to such behavior. However, perhaps that pitiful fellow doesn't care. He's in it for the women, and whatever it takes to get them, then so be it. As sophomoric as the example may be, it points out that our third party perspective is completely arbitrary. Let the man be duped. Let the advertiser profit from his gimick. Let our balding friend think its for his own good. Perhaps if it feeds his head, it is for his own good. After all, how can you define what is in his benefit?

I drink to excess, and have no guilt about it. Should I be stopped? You might eat meat, dairy, and other crap your body wasn't designed to process. Should you be stopped? Let people be.

If you think that the corporatism we now see is an aberration, I really don't think it is. I have looked at this in great detail, and studied the techniques used by advertisers, techniques that are rooted in very powerful mind manipulation techniques. All this competition is NOT PURE, and it is VERY EASY to abuse it. All the people who are supposed to guard the system will only do it if they are paid, and once they are paid, they will want more.

Careful. Abuse implies an injured party. In this situation, the abuse is self-inflicted. A free man can do anything to himself as long as it harms no other. Dangerous territory - you're deep in an alcohol dumping, pornography burning, reefer madness minefield.

You asked for some information on how people can be manipulated using current advertising techniques:

10 Disturbing Trends in Subliminal Advertising

Advertising company that openly promotes mind control

Here's a video by Derren Brown:



Here's a book on the subject:

Covert Hypnosis-Mind Control Subliminal Advertising

These are just SOME of the techniques and websites that promote these types of things. There are tons of books on the subject, and nearly every advertiser uses these methods to get the people to do what they want them to do.

Originally posted by downisreallyup

Okay, since you have taken time to further explain your position, and you have also indicated that you want questions instead of observations, I will indulge that modus operandi and ask you some questions:

1) Why do you think the Federal government is a fraud when it is expressly authorized in the Constitution? The entire debate of whether there should even be a Federal government was thoroughly debated in the Federalist Papers and various responding documents/commentaries.

I never meant that the federal government is a fraud, as in it has no right to exist. I meant... and I know you know this is what I meant... Congress is violating the Constitution, and stealing our freedoms. I also said our Federal Government is out of Control, especially when Federal Bureaucracies put Constitutional Loving Americans on the same page as those bastards who attacked our Country on 9/11. Those two things means the government no longer serves the people and that they are Completely Out of Control. BTW, I had to study the Federalist Papers when I was in College. So please explain where it says anywhere in those papers that Congress was set up to pass laws that steals trillions of dollars from our Children within 24 hours, and no one gets to read the bill.

2) How many people do you think would need to present themselves to the government in order for it to be seen as a "will of the people" and not a fringe group that needs to be suppressed? If 10 million people showed up and taunted the government to attack them, what would the other 290 million people really think?

Having paid close attention to how the Homosexual Movement, Socialist Parties and ACORN achieved their power, where they are allowed to force their plans onto this Country with under 1000 fulltime people, you now have the answer. Hell, if I can organize just 10 loud mouth people in the lower 48 states, things will change quickly.

3) Once the government does attack, as you admit they will, what will the Main Stream Media report about it, how will they spin it, and what will be the impressions made to the VAST majority of the population who rely on the MSM?

The MSM doesn‘t matter if this movement is done right. They could spin it one way, but the Internet and satellite radio guarantees they are not the last word.

4) You say that state governments are needed for the Federal government to have power. How do you see that to be true? The US military reports to the Federal Government, so why do the Feds need the state governments? The Feds print the money, so why do they need the states? The Feds provide the social programs that the people depend on, so why do the Feds need the states?

Well the Federal Government has roughly (including the military state/federal, plus police federal and local/state), 7 million people they can call up in a national crisis. With only about 2 million that could be used in any real containment capacity. However, they could only expect about 10 to 20 percent to actually attack Americans who are Marching to Protect their freedoms. In a country of 300 million people. Only 10 percent of that number need to March in all 50 states in thousands of cities and towns, and there is NOTHING the Federal Government could do to stop them. Well, there will be places they could, but not nearly enough places. Plus, they only need to use force in one location in the Country and they lose. Not right away mind you. But with all the stuff that can be bought at Home Depot and Radio Shack, plus mass desertion, the balance would be even pretty dang quick! So I would hope the Government would decide to meet the demands of the people. What are those demands, not sure, but I do have a few ideas.

5) Now, I'm not trying to make you angry here,...

Before I answer your next questions, why do you people continue to say outrageous nonsense. You people haven't even antagonized me yet, let alone make me angry. So please stop it. Its totally childish and completely unnecessary.

How is your plan different than a group of people marching into a police station and demanding that the police change how they do things, or else they (the people) will go home and get their guns to force a change? Of course the police will attempt to arrest everyone, which they should do.

I could actually point you to history where something like what you just said has happened more then once... And guess what, the police changed and in a damn hurry. Not to mention, there was a town where a Mayor decided he didn't like the election results so he threw them out. The people of that town didn't like that at all. They just barely saved that Mayor from being strung up, literarily. The police didn't show up with guns btw, they begged the people with the promise they would run that SOB out of town. So, you might want to study some Americana before you say the police will always react a certain way, let alone that they always win when the people have had enough. Chances are higher the people who work for local governments will go home for a few days, while talks begin between the leaders of the movement and the federal government.


(continue below)


[edit on 31-12-2009 by littlebunny]

reply to post by littlebunny continue from above

How is your plan any different than a man marching into a bar and making demands to the face of a guy who is known for being violent and easily stirred up? Can that man then stand innocent when he is the one who incited the violence?

That is not a fair analogy at all. That man didn't swear to uphold the Constitution and then wipe his rear with it. Nor is that man a Congressman who referred to the Constitution, that he swore to up hold and protect, as “what, that old document,” like one current Congressman has. That person didn't call Tea Party citizens Nazi, or call the police on his constituents who don't want their souls sold out to the highest bidder. That person didn't shove a trillion dollar bill down our throats without allowing us to read it. But, if that quick to anger person had, I would do everything I could to let that person know he's a low life worthless piece of filth that needs to stop, give us our money back, or prepare for some serious people driven change. And if that pissed him off, so be it! As I stand alone, so what, he can punch me in the face and walk away, or worse... However, let me get a group! And that quick to anger person will check himself, because he might win the first battle... But we aint Iraq and we sure as hell aint Afghanistan. Now, do I believe if it comes to violence I will be here the day after... Nope! But I would rather die on my feet standing up for freedom, then living on my knees as some government slave.


Now let me ask you two questions.

1) How would the Federal Government explain to the world why they murdered thousands of unarmed Americans, while they have condemned Iran for doing the same thing?

2) How would you help convince the Federal Government to give us our National Treasure and our Freedoms back in less then one year?


--Charles Marcello


[edit on 31-12-2009 by littlebunny]

reply to post by littlebunny


Thank you for your answers to my questions. I have other questions in response to your answers, but I will save them for a subsequent post. In the mean time, I will answer the questions you asked.

1) How would the Federal Government explain to the world why they murdered thousands of unarmed Americans, while they have condemned Iran for doing the same thing?

Well, to begin with, they will never admit to murdering anybody, and if anyone pinned them with killings, they would simply say it was needed for "national security." Generally though, they always try to maintain a position of "plausible deniability." The issue with Iran goes back to the days before Carter and is really a long-term program of brinkmanship between the two countries. Iran is in the same boat as Venezuela, where neither country cowers at the mere mention of the United States, like many other countries have historically done.

But, to really understand what the Feds have done, they have essentially fortified themselves against the people, the states, and the rest of the world. The ultimate thing they possess is unbelievable weaponry that could easily destroy ALL the countries of the world. Between the HAARP system, massive arsenal of nukes, and amazing top-secret space-age weapons that can wipe out entire cities and towns or mow down any armed force, the US military-industrial complex is unbeatable when it comes to combat.

I watched a movie last night that had a guy and his wife go to a home they bought in the wilderness. When they got there, there was a Mexican handyman living there. As the husband tried to get the guy to leave, they came to realize that he had been there his entire life, and that he knew how to survive in that place much better than they did. He also had weapons. Eventually, he ended up in the house alone, with the couple exiled out in the woods, with no food, water, or any means to survive. The woman found her way into the house by sleeping with the "handyman" and the husband ended up working as a slave for the guy... they did this just so they could eat and not die like animals. It was a very illustrative movie of how things have developed in the world. Even though the couple had full legal rights to the house, that didn't mean anything when the "rule of law" was gone. Once that happens, it is the guy with the biggest guns, the food, the control... that is who runs the show.

Basically, each state has taken huge amounts of Federal money to build their roads and infrastructure. They have had to agree to all kinds of "sovereignty-relinquishing" terms in order to get that money. The truth of the matter is, the entire United States already DID go bankrupt, and in the settlement of that bankruptcy, the international bankers took over the institutions of the country and took ownership of the countries resources and the labor force of the citizenry.

So, technically, they have not violated the Constitution... they just didn't tell all the people that the situation has changed because your leaders, the ones you elected, put the country into such debt that the country had to go into receivership.

There is also another issue, and that is the clause in the Constitution that gives the government the right to form TREATIES, which is the main LOOPHOLE in the Constitution that allows all these negative activities to occur. I have always thought that the founders made a huge mistake in their wording of this, and it may well be the "fly in the ointment" that ends up bringing the whole thing crashing down... indeed it may have already done so.

How Treaties Trump the Constitution

Now here is the other side of the argument, which seems to show that the "treaties" clause in the Constitution is commonly misunderstood, even by congressmen.

Constitution Trumps Treaties

I believe that the Constitution DOES trump treaties, but I also believe that there needs to be a big re-education program among the states to re-inform the people of what they have forgotten.

If you can actually get the people to RE-ASSERT their State Citizenship, and to RE-ASSERT their State Sovereignty, you could get the states to shake off the Federal tentacles that have ensnared them. You would also have to potentially get changes made to the state Constitutions, since many have been modified negatively over the last 50 to 60 years.

Remember, the Federal Constitution is flawed with the Treaty clause, allowing treaties to be made that nullify freedom at the Federal level. The Constitution DOES however say that State law trumps the Federal treaties, but unless the states decide to assert that fact, it will not matter.

In my opinion, that is where you should mount your "attack"... by educating and advocating a return to "State-centric" thinking. People need to see that the key to their freedoms being restored is by reasserting the supremacy of the STATE over the Federal.

2) How would you help convince the Federal Government to give us our National Treasure and our Freedoms back in less then one year?

That is the mistake right there. The Constitution of the United States is not superior to the constitutions of the individual states... IF you assert your state citizenship instead of the federal citizenship. The goal should not be to ask the Federal government to restore your freedoms, the goal should be to convince your state to shake off the bonds they have allowed the Federal government to put upon them. How many people do you know that say "I am a Citizen of the State of California!" or whatever state they happen to live in? That is how Americans used to talk, and that is why they had more freedom. Some states are less entangled with the Federal government, which only goes to prove the point I am making. Freedom rests with the States, and the Federal Constitution is what makes that true by everywhere establishing that Federal law can't trump State law.

Here is a good article on a recent study that analyzed which states were more free than others:

Article on State Freedom


[edit on 31-12-2009 by downisreallyup]

As an additional piece of information, here is a good article describing the difference between a State Citizen and a Federal Citizen. This understanding is crucial if one is to really understand what has happened in the United States, and how things can be reversed. It is important to realize that what has truly happened is the governments, in league with experts in law, have crafted a two-tier system, where most people live in the inferior tier, and only the elite live in the superior one. These tiers are legal in that they adhere to the principles laid out in the Constitution. The reason this was able to happen is because the general population became ignorant to their standing and were not aware of the clever devices that lawyers were able to use. Anyhow, this article will explain much:

On State Citizenship