Christianity to control the masses?! [rant]

When one objectively reviews history, I believe that it is clear that secular forces have always felt threatened by any belief in a superior being or creator. It's not just a Christian thing. Look at the history of the Jews and the Romans just before Jesus. No religion is not a tool to control the masses. If anything it's the other way around, governments typically try to control religion. Just look at communist societies today.

Ahh, I see. Well then, I am more than willing to admit that The Church has done bad things, historically. But it might also be pertinent to note, that The Church that did those bad things was not following their own beliefs at the time, even if they claimed they were. Because the bible says it's bad to burn witches or stone people to death or hurt people or be greedy or lie or be jealous or ... the list is pretty endless. I try to remember Jesus' words as His words are the basis for christianity, my favorite being the Sermon on the Mount (which was pretty nifty, if'n you ask me).



[Edited on 24-5-2004 by Undomiel]

I see the bible like one size it fits all.

Wheee! Your post gave me the giggles for some reason. I think because it reminded me of that movie where the boy decides he just wants to leave the planet, that he is tired of human beings, and that's all there is to it! So he is suddenly taken off the planet to some alien civilization where things are even crazier and more mixed up than human civilization. He spends the rest of the movie trying to figure out how to get back to earth. lol Several quotes come to mind:

"There's no place like home."
"The grass is always greener on the other side."
"You don't know whatcha got till it's gone."
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

Err, can't think of any others at the moment. Wish I could've thought of a Yoda quote.

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
Either you believe in Jesus or you dont. Theres no inbetween.

Wanna bet?

I neither believe Jesus existed nor do I believe that he didn't exist (although I am more inclined to believe he didn't) simply because I don't know whether he did or didn't exist.

So to me believing either way would be ignorant of the other unproven (or undispoven) possiblilty.

Faith is igorance.

I agree. You cannot blame God and His Word for what man has done in their ignorance. I find no contradictions in the Bible (EXcept James) nor do I feel it breeds ignorance...the exact opposite occurs. If your teachers are leaving you with more questions than answers then find a new teacher..he was obviously not chosen by God to minister but self-ordained.

I have 1 question, what is the ephraim cult?

Newbie here! No way does Christianity try to control the masses. It's just the other way around. Just about all strictly controlled kingdoms and dictatorships have always tried to control religion! Look at England, king wanted a divorce, pope said no! - time for the church of england. Look at the communists. If they even allow a church - they control it, or at least they're foolish enough to think they can.

Good grief Charlie Brown! Not this topic again!

Let's get this straight from the get go, we are not talking about God, we are talking about religion. Is religion a control system? Undeniably!

Do what we say and believe what we tell you to and when you are of no more use to us (the religion), because of death, you will go to a blissful heaven because you have lifed your life in accordence with what we tell you is correct. However, if you do not do what we tell you and believe what we want you too, then you will be punished in a firey hell. The stick and the carrot.

Yeah well, the weird thing is that even though many idiots tried to bend Christianity this way, (earn your way up into heaven) the bible is very very clear about earning heaven.
Only by accepting the offering that Jesus Christ gave for you, you can enter heaven. There is nothing you can do wrong or right in your life that will guarantee either hell or heaven. It's all about accepting that you can not be sinless, and you can not pay for your own sins either.

Looked at it like that, Christianity as a system to control the crowd seems rather useless.

[Edited on 24-5-2004 by Jakko]

Originally posted by SOTERION 5
I have 1 question, what is the ephraim cult?

I am from the netherlands, so this may be a Dutch thing only.
The Ephraim cult is basicly a pretty unoriginal cult, join the church, give your money, sell your belongings, no more contact with your family or others not in the cult, do "holy missions" for the leader, don't ever try to leave, etc. etc.
This may sound retarded enough, but wait untill you read how they use the bible in their sick mindgames, it's horrible.

Jakko,
I may be mistaken here, and correct me if I'm wrong, but why are you solely targeting Christianity?
There are 21 other major religions in this world, and thats not counting the minor ones, and yet, from what I am reading, your attacking one of multitudes? I'm failing to find how you can define one as being a tool of 'mass control' and not list or condemn the others....

List of the major religions and approx. numbers within each:
Major Religions of the World Ranked by Number of Adherents

And a complete list of all major/minor/etc.:
List of religions: Religions, sects and denominations



seekerof

Originally posted by Jakko
KKK, mormons, the ephraim cult, Jehova witnesses, all examples of people that are inspired by the devil to use the bible for their very unchristian religion and way of life, without them being aware of it.

Whether you are right or not, its not wise to say this sort of thing when people who are part of the groups you have mentioned may read it. All you are doing is insulting them and making them resent any of your attempts to "convert" them to your way of thinking.

Christianity teaches love in all things and it is not love to speak about people like that whether it is true or not.

I'm not targetting Christianity Seekerof, I'm defending it.
I am a Christian myself.
Read posts, not only topics!

Yeah, I got you mixed up with someone else in this post. Arghhh.
My apologies Jakko.
I'm not going to edit my initial post cause I want to let folks know that I am human and make mistakes.

Again, my apologies.


seekerof

Originally posted by TenPin
Whether you are right or not, its not wise to say this sort of thing when people who are part of the groups you have mentioned may read it. All you are doing is insulting them and making them resent any of your attempts to "convert" them to your way of thinking.

I am not trying to insult anyone and I think I'm making it clear that it's not their fault they were misled by the devil.
In the end this is how I think it is, and I hope people who are part of any of these groups will take my posts as something to think about, rather than an insult.

Jakko, I understand where you are coming from but saying it like that never helps them to see anything differently.

They are just as likely to say to you that you are deceived by satan.

As a Christian all I would suggest is to pray for people and show that you love them through what you say and do.

Telling them that satan has deceived them but its not their fault just makes them more distant from you and people like you.

I've learnt from experience that the worse thing you can possible do is tell someone that their beliefs are wrong. Avoid that part of the subject as much as possible and if you can't avoid it, just say nothing.

Praying for someone is obviously going to be more powerful than trying to persuade someone.

Having said all that I must confess that I sometimes don't say what I should. I am learning though

Originally posted by Jonna
However, if you do not do what we tell you and believe what we want you too, then you will be punished in a firey hell. The stick and the carrot.

Exactly. I found an interesting page for those who've been defending the "essential goodness" of the bible - check it out here. To reiterate the point I made earlier, jakko - don't rely for your faith on a book which is packed full of contradictions, cruelty and flat-out lies. This is not "idiots trying to bend Christianity" - this is taken from your most holy book! It's absolutely fundamental to what the bible is and what it represents, and you cannot claim that these selections have been decontextualised and abused. Or are we back to the idea that you can pick and choose which parts of the bible suit you?

And before you answer, I'll remind you of your "three basic rules":

Originally posted by jakko
1. Do not damage yourself.
2. Do not damage others.
3. Do not damage God.

Do you see these rules reflected in the actual words of the bible?

As Jonna said, the carrot and the stick. "Do what we say or else". If that doesn't sound like control, I don't know what does.

TenPin, that was a noble post. We would all - theists and atheists alike - do well to remember we are not flawless.

After all, if Seekerof can admit it, there's hope for everyone!

Originally posted by StrangeLands
Exactly. I found an interesting page for those who've been defending the "essential goodness" of the bible - check it out here.

I've read that and its just the same arguments as always. Lots of the Bible misquoted out of context.

As a Christian who studies the Bible what that says is quite disgusting.

I'm not about to go through and debunk the whole site (I could) but this example is just silly:

From here
Exodus 20:4 �Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water below.�

Old Testament punishment- Deuteronomy 27: 1 5 �Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image.�

That�s right kids don�t EVER draw, sculpt or paint or else god will curse you. Wanna be an artist, a photographer, take a picture of yourself or family? TOO BAD, God says no! You better drop out of art class before he smites you with boils.

They should have quoted Exodus 20:4-6

You shall not make for yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on earth under it, or that is in the water below. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, who visits the iniquity of fathers on children, even to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but who extends faithful love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

So its not saying not to draw stuff, its saying don't make sculptures or whatever for the purposes of worshiping it.

As for Deuteronomy 27:15 they didn't even finish the sentence to put it in context.

�Cursed is the one who makes a carved or metal image�something abhorrent to the Lord, the work of the craftsman�and sets it in a secret place.�

Same thing again, don't make an idol that you worship in place of God.

That site also conatains an awful lot of misquotes about old testament law. These quotes not only twist what the Bible actually says but even the real text doesn't apply today because Old Testament law doesn't apply today at all. Yes the 10 commandments do apply today because they are stated as laws in the New Testament.

If you are going to agree with a certain standpoint on the Bible based on someones interpretation then at least look up the verses and find both sides of the argument before deciding to reject the Christian viewpoint.

Arguments for contradictions in the Bible are about as impressive as a 2 man wave at the Super Bowl.

Arguments for contradictions in the Bible are about as impressive as a 2 man wave at the Super Bowl.

Or rather, arguments for contradictions in the bible are about as likely to be listened to as two men whispering in a hurricane.

And I thought you showed such promise, TenPin.

At the risk of repeating my previous post, why is your defense against criticism of the bible the same old tired cry of "context"?

If the bible is only legitimate as an entire unit, how can you dismiss the Old Testament. Are you suggesting that the Old Testament is not the true word of God? Because if it isn't, then how do you know that the New Testament is? Why do you think that you are the authority on what is the acceptable word of God?

It's unrealistic to expect you to find a way of explaining every contradiction in the bible - that would strain anyone's creativity.

And here's something else to consider - if the bible is the true word of God, and if it was always intended to be the cornerstone of a mighty religion, then why did God allow it to be stuffed full of inaccuracies, contradictions and lies? Or, if it is merely the creation of fallible human beings, why should it be revered as the word of God any more than the Lord of the Rings or the TV Guide?

Oh, wait, I know this one - it was Satan, right? Satan stepped in and corrupted the bible, corrupted my understanding? God good, Christians great, atheists bad, Satan evil - therefore anyone who disagrees with you or can disprove your word is an agent of the ultimate evil.

Damn, but that must be comforting - but then, denial always is.

Originally posted by StrangeLands

And I thought you showed such promise, TenPin.

At the risk of repeating my previous post, why is your defense against criticism of the bible the same old tired cry of "context"?

Did you even read Tenpins post? He clearly pointed out that the morons that created the site you gave us a link to, are twisting and turning verses, trying to make their point. These verses do not mean what they want to make of it, therefore their whole point can be dismissed, just like your point becomes rather silly when you link to that site.

If the bible is only legitimate as an entire unit, how can you dismiss the Old Testament. Are you suggesting that the Old Testament is not the true word of God? Because if it isn't, then how do you know that the New Testament is? Why do you think that you are the authority on what is the acceptable word of God?

The answers to all of these questions are (tada) in the bible.
It's explained very well, it's not hard to understand and it's not "just our interpretation" either.

It's unrealistic to expect you to find a way of explaining every contradiction in the bible - that would strain anyone's creativity.

You have yet to show me one contradiction that's not based on ripped apart verses that are misunderstood by you.

And here's something else to consider - if the bible is the true word of God, and if it was always intended to be the cornerstone of a mighty religion, then why did God allow it to be stuffed full of inaccuracies, contradictions and lies? Or, if it is merely the creation of fallible human beings, why should it be revered as the word of God any more than the Lord of the Rings or the TV Guide?

Are you going to keep on crying about lies and contradictions or are you actually going to show me what lies and contradictions we are talking about here?

Oh, wait, I know this one - it was Satan, right? Satan stepped in and corrupted the bible, corrupted my understanding? God good, Christians great, atheists bad, Satan evil - therefore anyone who disagrees with you or can disprove your word is an agent of the ultimate evil.

I think if Satan would have enough influence on you, you would not be rambling like this on these boards, so there's still hope.

Your context is a flawed one, and untill you understand this and decide to look at things yourself, instead of taking the opinion of sites/your parents/your friends for granted, you'll never come to know where you were wrong or right.

[Edited on 25-5-2004 by Jakko]