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India: Ancient Superpower

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posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 04:04 AM
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Steamer, pottery appliance for cooking: Yangzi River, zeng pots first appeared in the Hemudu culture (5000–4500 BC)


Treetrunk coffin: The treetrunk coffin, single trunk coffin or boat coffin was one of the common burials found mainly in the southern China. One of the few earliest boat coffins are found among the 92 burial tombs in the Songze culture (4000–3000 BC)


A basin cover for a "coffin urn" from the Neolithic Yangshao culture (c. 5000–c. 3000 BC)

Inventions which made their first appearance in China after the Neolithic age, specifically during and after the Shang Dynasty (c. 1600–1050 BC), are listed in alphabetical order below.
[edit]A
Acupuncture: Western Han (202 BC–9 AD);



Bronze mirror of the Sui Dynasty (581–618) showing the twelve divisions of the Chinese zodiac, the latter of which goes back to the Warring States Period (403–221 BC) in China


A cylindrical bronze wine container made during the late Shang Dynasty (c. 1600–c. 1050 BC); such items were excavated by gentry scholars of the Song Dynasty (960–1279).[128]

Animal zodiac: The earliest and most complete version of the animal zodiac mentions twelve animals which differ slightly
Archaeology, catalogues and epigraphy
Anti-malarial properties of artemisia: The antimalarial drug of compound artemisinin found in Artemisia annua, the latter being a plant long used in traditional Chinese medicine, was discovered Armillary sphere, hydraulic-powered:
Automatic opening doors, foot-activated trigger: Emperor Yang (r. 604–617)


Blast furnace bellows operated by waterwheels, from a book published by Wang Zhen in 1313, Yuan Dynasty
Oar, rowing: Rowing oars have been used since the early Neothilic period; a canoe-shaped pottery and six wooden oars dating from the 6000 BC

The Spinning Wheel, by Northern Song (960–1127) artist Wang Juzheng. The Chinese invented the belt drive by the 1st century BC for silk quilling devices. This was essential for the invention of the later spinning wheel


Plastromancy: The earliest use of turtle shells comes from the archaeological site in Jiahu site. The shells, containing small pebbles of various size, color, and quantity, were drilled with small holes, suggesting that each pair of them was tied together originally. Similar finds have also been found in the Dawenkou burial sites of about 4000–3000 BC

Banknote: Paper currency was first developed in China. Its roots were in merchant receipts of deposit during the Tang Dynasty (618–907)

Bellows, hydraulic-powered: Although it is unknown if metallurgic bellows (i.e. air-blowing device) in the Han Dynasty (202 BC–220 AD)

Belt drive: The mechanical belt drive, with a large wheel and small pulley, was first mentioned by the Han Dynasty (202 BC–220 AD) author Yang Xiong (53–18 BC)

Blast furnace: Although cast iron tools and weapons have been found in China dating to the 5th century BC (THOUSAND YEARS BEFORE INDIA)

Bomb, cast iron: The first accounts of bombs made of cast iron shells packed with explosive gunpowder—as opposed to earlier types of casings—was written in the 13th century in China

Borehole drilling: By at least the Han Dynasty (202 BC–220 AD)

Bristle toothbrush: According to a Library of Congress website, the Chinese have used the bristle toothbrush since 1498

Bulkhead partition: The 5th century book Garden of Strange Things by Liu Jingshu mentioned that a ship could allow water to enter the bottom without sinking,

Calendar year at 365.2425 days: In the late Spring and Autumn Period (722–481 BC)

Cast iron: Confirmed by archaeological evidence, cast iron, made from melting pig iron, was developed in China by the early 5th century BC (JUST SO YOU DONT FORGET_)

Celadon: Named after a pale-tinted spring green color, Wang Zhongshu (1982) asserts that shards having this type of ceramic glaze have been recovered from Eastern Han Dynasty (25–220 AD)

Chain drive, endless power-transmitting: The Greek Philon of Byzantium (3rd or 2nd century BC)[205] described a chain drive and windlass used in the operation of a polybolos (a repeating ballista),[206][207] but the chain drive did not continuously transmit power from shaft to shaft.[189][208] A continuously driven chain drive first appeared in 11th-century China.

Chemical warfare using bellows, mustard smoke, and lime: As written in the 4th century BC by the Mohists

Chopsticks: The historian Sima Qian (145–86 BC) wrote in the Records of the Grand Historian that King Zhou of Shang was the first to make chopsticks out of ivory in the 11th century BC;

Chromium, use of: The use of chromium was invented in China no later than 210 BC,

Chuiwan (Chinese golf): Chuiwan, a game similar to the Scottish-derived sport of golf, was first mentioned in China by Wei Tai (fl. 1050–1100)

Civil service examinations: In the Han Dynasty (202 BC–220 AD),

Co-fusion steel process: Although both Robert Temple and Joseph Needham speculate that it could have existed beforehand, the first clear written evidence of the fusion of wrought iron and cast iron to make steel comes from the 6th century AD

Coke as fuel: By the 11th century, during the Song Dynasty (960–1279), t

Contour canal: After numerous conquests and consolidation of his empire, China's first emperor Qin Shi Huang (r. 221–210 BC)

Crank handle: The earliest known depicted crank handle in art comes from a 1st century BC Han Dynasty (202 BC–220 AD

Crossbow, handheld: In China, bronze crossbow bolts dating as early as mid 5th century BC

Cuju (football): The game of football known as cuju was first mentioned in China by two historical texts; the Zhan Guo Ce (compiled from the 3rd to 1st centuries BC)

Cupola furnace: Vincent C. Pigott states that the cupola furnace existed in China at least by the Warring States Period (403–221 BC),

Deficiency diseases, correction by proper diet: As early as the 4th century BC,

Diabetes, recognition and treatment of: In ancient China, diabetes was aptly called 'dissolutive thirst' due to diabetic patients' excessive thirst and passing of urine.[266] The Huangdi Neijing compiled by the 2nd century BC during the Han Dynasty (202 BC–220 AD)

Dominoes, Chinese: The Ming Dynasty (1368–1644) author Xie Zhaozhe (1567–1624) initiated the legend that dominoes were first presented to the imperial court in 1112.[265] However, the oldest confirmed written mention of dominoes in China comes from the Former Events in Wulin (i.e. the capital Hangzhou) written by the Yuan Dynasty (1271–1368)

Dougong: A dougong is a building bracket which is unique to Chinese architecture. Since at least the Western Zhou Dynasty (c. 1050–771 BC),

Drawloom: The earliest confirmed drawloom fabrics come from the State of Chu and date circa 400 BC

Endocrinology, isolation of sex and pituitary hormones from urine: In 1110, a Chinese medical text specified the use of gypsum (containing calcium sulfate) as well as saponin from the beans of Gleditschia sinensis to extract hormones from urine, a process of using natural soaps which was not discovered elsewhere until the use of digitonin by Adolf Windaus (1876–1959) in 1909

Escapement (use in clockworks): Although the escapement mechanism was first invented by the Greek Philon of Byzantium for a mechanical washstand,[279] an escapement mechanism for clockworks was first developed by the Buddhist monk, court astronomer, mathematician and engineer Yi Xing (683–727)

Exploding cannonballs: The Huolongjing military manual compiled by Jiao Yu (fl. 14th to early 15th century)

Field mill (carriage): In the Yezhongji ('Record of Affairs at the Capital Ye of the Later Zhao Dynasty') written by Lu Hui (fl. 350 AD),

Finery forge: In addition to accidental lumps of low-carbon wrought iron produced by excessive injected air in Chinese cupola furnaces, the ancient Chinese also created wrought iron by using the finery forge at least by the 2nd century BC,

Fire lance: The fire lance was a proto-gun developed in the 10th century

Fireworks: Fireworks first appeared in China during the Song Dynasty (960–1279), in the early age of gunpowder.

Fishing reel: In literary records, the earliest evidence of the fishing reel comes from a 4th century AD[

Flamethrower, double piston and gunpowder-activated: Although the single piston flamethrower was first developed in the Byzantine Empire during the 7th century

Flare, military signalling: The earliest recorded use of a flare for signalling purposes was the 'signal bomb' used by the Song Dynasty (960–1279)

Forensic entomology: The Song Dynasty (960–1279) forensic science work Collected Cases of Injustice Rectified published by Song Ci in 1247

Free reed aerophone: The musical pipe organ employing metal piston bellows had a long history in the West.[317] It was an invention of the Hellenic Alexandrians and was described in minute detail by the Roman engineer Vitruvius in the late 1st century BC, although it is now more commonly associated with the Christian liturgy.[317] However, the Western pipe organ did not make use of the reed, which the ancient Chinese mouth organ employed.[317] The latter instrument, called a sheng and made traditionally of bamboo pipes, was first mentioned in the Shi Jing of the Zhou Dynasty (c. 1050–256 BC)

Gas cylinder: From deep boreholes drilled during the Han Dynasty (202 BC–220 AD),

Gimbal ('Cardan' suspension): Wu Zetian (r. 690–705) in 692 which employed gimbals to keep it constantly balanced.[330]

Go (board game) (Weiqi in Chinese): Although ancient Chinese legend (perhaps contrived during the Han Dynasty) has it that the mythological ruler Yao came down to earth from the Heavens around 2200 BC carrying with him a go board and stone player's pieces, it is known from existing literature that the go board game existed since at least the 10th century BC during the Zhou Dynasty

Guqin: The guqin is one of the oldest stringed zither instruments from China and has existed since at least the Shang Dynasty (c. 1600–c. 1050 BC)




posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 04:04 AM
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Hand cannon: The bronze Yuan Dynasty gun from Heilongjiang which dates to about 1288

Heavy moldboard iron plow: Although use of the simple wooden ard in China must have preceded it, the earliest discovered Chinese iron plows date to roughly 500 BC, during the Zhou Dynasty (1122–256 BC)

Horse collar: A significant improvement of the ancient breast harness was the horse collar. Robert Temple speculates that a Han Dynasty brick from the 1st century BC

Hybrid rice: A team of agricultural scientists headed by Yuan Longping (b. 1930) developed a new type of rice called hybrid rice in 1973

India ink: Although named after carbonaceous pigment materials originating from India, Indian ink first appeared in China; some scholars say it was made as far back as the 3rd millennium BC (THats just hillarious)

Inoculation, treatment of smallpox: Joseph Needham and Robert Temple state that a case of inoculation for smallpox may have existed in the late 10th century during the Song Dynasty (960–1279

Jacob's staff: The Song Dynasty (960–1279) official Shen Kuo (1031–1095)

Jade burial suit: Burial suits made of jade existed in China during the Han Dynasty (202 BC–220 AD).

Kite: As written in the Mozi, the philosopher, artisan, and engineer Lu Ban (fl. 5th century BC)

Land mine: Textual evidence suggests that the first use of a land mine in history was by a Song Dynasty (960–1279)

Leeboard: To avoid leeward drift caused by the force of wind while sailing, leeboard in use as early as 300 BC.

'Magic mirrors': In about 800 AD, during the Tang Dynasty (618–907),

Maglev wind power generators: In 2006(NICE)

Manned flight with kites: Although Ge Hong (284–364 AD) (YES MANNED FLIGHT)

Match, non-friction: The earliest type of match for lighting fire was made in China by 577 AD

Mechanical theater: The inventors of the field mill mentioned above, Xie Fei and Wei Mengbian of the Later Zhao (319–351 AD

Mechanical cup-bearers and wine-pourers on automatic-traveling boats: The mechanical engineer Huang Gun served the court of Emperor Yang of Sui (r. 604–617)

Modular system of architecture, eight standard grades: Although other texts preceded it, such as the 'National Building Law' of the Tang Dynasty (618–907)

Multiple-tube seed drill: The wooden seed drill existed in China by the 3rd century BC,

Multistage rocket: during the early Ming Dynasty (1368–1644)

Natural gas as fuel: Robert Temple asserts that the 4th century BC

Naval mine: The Huolongjing military manuscript written by Jiao Yu (fl. 14th to early 15th century) and Liu Ji (1311–1375)

Negative numbers, symbols for and use of: In the Nine Chapters on the Mathematical Art compiled during the Han Dynasty (202 BC–220 AD)

Open-spandrel segmental arch bridge, fully stone: The earliest known fully-stone open-spandrel segmental arch bridge is the Zhaozhou Bridge in southern Hebei province, China, completed in 605

Pinhole camera: The ancient Chinese philosopher Mozi (c. 470 BC–c. 391 BC)—

Playing cards: The first reference to the card game in world history dates no later than the 9th century, when the Collection of Miscellanea at Duyang, written by Su E (fl. 880

Porcelain: Although glazed ceramics existed beforehand, S.A.M. Adshead writes that the earliest type of vitrified, translucent ceramics that could be classified as true porcelain was not made until the Tang Dynasty (618–907)

Pound lock: Although the one gate canal flash lock existed in China beforehand, the two-gate pound lock was invented in China in 984

Puppet theater, waterwheel-powered: The mechanical toys of Roman Egypt, especially the weight-driven puppet theater of Heron of Alexandria (c. 10–70 AD)

Raised-relief map: In his 1665 paper for the Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society, John Evelyn (1620–1706)

Restaurant menu: During the early Song Dynasty (960–1279),

Rocket bombs, aerodynamic wings and explosive payloads: The first known rockets fitted with aerodynamic wings are described as the 'flying crows with magic fire' in the oldest strata of the Huolongjing (early-to-mid 14th century), compiled by Jiao Yu and Liu Ji during the early Ming Dynasty (1368–1644).

Rotary fan, manual and water-powered: For purposes of air conditioning, the Han Dynasty (202 BC–220 AD)

Rudder, stern-mounted and vertical axial: Lawrence V. Mott, who defines a steering oar as a rudder, states the ancient Egyptian use of stern-mounted rudders can be traced back to the 6th dynasty (2350-2200 BC).

Seismometer: The official, astronomer, and mathematician Zhang Heng (78–139) of the Han Dynasty (202 BC–220 AD)

South Pointing Chariot: Although the claim of Wei Dynasty statesman Ma Jun (fl. 220–265)

Steel made from cast iron through oxygenation: The Chinese, who had been producing cast iron from the late Spring and Autumn Period (722–481 BC),


Suspension bridge using iron chains: Although there is evidence that many early cultures employed the use of suspension bridges with cabled ropes, the first written evidence of iron chain suspension bridges comes from a local history and topography of Yunnan written in the 15th century

Tea: The tea plant is indigenous to western Yunnan;[507] by the mid 2nd millennium BC,

Thyroid hormones to treat goiters: In 239 BC,

Tofu: Although both popular tradition and Song-dynasty (960–1279 AD)

Toilet paper: Toilet paper was first mentioned by the official Yan Zhitui (531–591)

Traction trebuchet catapult: The earliest type of trebuchet catapult was the traction trebuchet, developed first in China by the 5th or 4th century BC, the beginning of the Warring States Period (403–221 BC)

Trip hammer: The ancient Chinese used pestle and mortar to pound and decorticate grain, which was superseded by the treadle-operated tilt hammer (employing a simple lever and fulcrum) perhaps during the Zhou Dynasty (1122–256 BC)

Tuned bells: existed in China during the Zhou Dynasty (c. 1050–256 BC)

Underwater salvage operations: In 333 BC,

Wheelbarrow: There is scanty linguistic evidence that wheelbarrows (i.e. the hyperteria monokyklou, or 'one-wheeler') might have existed in ancient Greece by the late 5th century BC

Winnowing fan: Contemporary to the rotary air conditioning fan invented by Ding Huan (fl. 180 AD)

Zoetrope: There is some evidence that the zoetrope, an primitive ancestor of the cinematograph which the Chinese called a "magic lantern", existed amongst the items of the treasury of the deceased Qin Shi Huang (r. 221–210 BC) of the Qin Dynasty (221–206 BC



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 04:06 AM
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I think that just about destroys any argument you have.

No please - go and learn about the HISTORICAL RECORD WHICH IS THERE FOR US ALL TO SEE !!!! AND STOP MAKING UP YOUR OWN PAROCHIAL WISH LIST !

AGAIN - Australian Aboriginals are the oldest surviving civilization on the planet at around 90,000 years - INDIA IS NOTHING compared to that OK ?!!!!!

FFS!



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 06:25 AM
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reply to post by Project2501
 


Project, I have seen this information posted before in Anti-Hindu articles posted on Islamic fundamentalist web sites. I don't think you are setting a good example by promoting islamic fundamentalism here. This is based on perverted interpretations of Indian texts. Incests, homosexuality, muder everything can be found by somebody who wants to look for that and interpret a mythological tale or ritual as that. I have seen just as many articles on Islam showing Mohammed to be a pedophile and homosexual posted on Anti-Islam sites. You have really missed the point of this thread. I think it would be best we stop this discussion here.



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 06:30 AM
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reply to post by Project2501
 


The dead horse was meant to be eaten. Not to have sex with. How can people have sex with a dead male horse??? Makes no sense does it...
I dont have any problems if you dont like hinduism. But I need to correct this distorted view of yours! There are many mistranslations of those texts available owing to the fact that they are far too old...

Even in Islam we have the Ayatollas, Imams, Mullahs, Caliphates etc. Apart from that we have Shia, Sunni, Sufi etc.

So whats so special in Islam to call it united when Islam has its own divisions?
(Edit to make point)

[edit on 28-12-2009 by CuteAngel]



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 06:39 AM
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Originally posted by audas
I think that just about destroys any argument you have.


No it doesn't. All your posting of Chinese achivements - which no offense are not as impressive as the Indian achivements in my opinion(formal grammar, binary numbers, planned cities wth plumbing, corrosion-resistant iron) and especially their achivements in philosophy - shows that China also was a prosperous civilisation. I never said it wasn't. If you read my first reply I said India and China were the dominant civilisations of the past.

I am arguing for an Asiatic origin of civilisation in this thread and to show how dominant it was in order to refute westerncentric history and to pay tribute to a civilisation that is not given its proper due to distortions of its history.

Why do you take India's glory in ancient times as an insult to China's glory? It is this kind of thinking which continues to make the world wary of China. China needs to come out of this simplistic thinking of thinking of themselves as being the only nation of significance in the world. The difference between your argument and mine, is you are arguing for Chinese superiority, I am arguing for representing India's actual history and how it brought about a globalized world in ancient times. In ancient times India and China were very warm to each other, and China greately accepted Indian cultural influence. It is a shame modern nationalist Chinese like yourself sow nothing but seeds of hate. You're a bad example.

[edit on 28-12-2009 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 06:47 AM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but...aren't China and India essentially border to border on the um...same land mass?
Wouldn't they naturally, at least on some levels, share technologies?



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 06:58 AM
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reply to post by Matthew Dark
 


Yes, definitely they indeed did share technologies. Hence why you find steel appearing in China a millenia later. It is clear in the past that India was in a way a "civiliser" for want of better term of China(as it was most people in the ancient world) as we see just how much China was dominated by Indian influence in ancient times, especially by Buddhist religion and the fact that Chinese use to study at Indian universities. There is much less evidence of Chinese influence on India or Indians studying at Chinese "universities"(which did not exist lol) Interestingly, even some Chinese scholars admit that India had culturally dominated China in the past:


Lin Yutang (1895-1976) author of The Wisdom of China and India:
"India was China's teacher in religion and imaginative literature, and the world's teacher in trignometry, quandratic equations, grammar, phonetics, Arabian Nights, animal fables, chess, as well as in philosophy, and that she inspired Boccaccio, Goethe, Herder, Schopenhauer, Emerson, and probably also old Aesop."



Hu Shih, (1891-1962), Chinese philosopher in Republican China. He was ambassador to the U.S. (1938-42) and chancellor of Peking University (1946-48). He said:

"India conquered and dominated China culturally for two thousand years without ever having to send a single soldier across her border."

Court Bjornstjerna (1779-1847) author of The Theogony of the Hindoos with their systems of Philosophy and Cosmogony says: " what may be said with certainty is that the religion of China came from India."


Source

It is clear from the admission of these major Chinese scholars that in the past India and China were not rivals, but very close friends and China indeed did get a lot of schooling from India.


[edit on 28-12-2009 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 08:14 AM
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Ancient India vs Ancient China

Audes, you started this ridiculous India vs. China contest - so don’t blame me for continuing it - I am also going to finish it. I think you need to know just how well ahead of China India was


Let us compare Chinese mathematical, philosophical, scientific and technological achievements with Indianm mathematica, philosophical, scientific and technological achievements.

I am going to revise all Indian dates back by 1200 years to account for the distortions introduced by the dubious sheet anchors by Western scholars(Aryan invasion theory and dating of Buddha) I will also mention the current accepted dates as well.

Mathematics

Chinese mathmatics:

Chinese remainder theorem: The Chinese remainder theorem, including simultaneous congruences in number theory, was first created by the mathematician Sunzi in the 3rd century AD

Decimal fractions: As proven by inscriptions from the 13th century BC, the decimal system existed in China since the Shang Dynasty (c. 1600–c. 1050 BC).

Negative numbers, symbols for and use of: In the Nine Chapters on the Mathematical Art compiled during the Han Dynasty (202 BC–220 AD

Horner scheme: Although named after English mathematician William George Horner (1786–1837), the Horner scheme, an algorithm used to estimate the root of an equation and evaluate polynomials in monomial form, was actually first invented in China to find the cube root of the number 1,860,867 (the answer given being 123).[29] This is found in the Han Dynasty (202 BC–220 AD) work The Nine Chapters on the Mathematical Art, commented on by Liu Hui (fl. 3rd century) in 263

Indian mathematics:

Actually there is no evidence that decimal system existed in China in 13th century BC. It is widely acknowledged that the place value decimal system and the use of zero as a placeholder is Indian. So I am going to disregard that reference as spurious, until you can produce more evidence to establish it.

Actual evidence:

Decimal Number System: The modern decimal number system originated in India.[182][183][184][185] Other cultures discovered a few features of this number system but the system, in its entirely, was compiled in India, where it attained coherence and completion.[182] By the 9th century CE, this complete number system had existed in India but several of its ideas were transmitted to China and the Islamic world well before that time.[156][185]

Hindu-Arabic numeral system: The Hindu-Arabic numeral system originated in India.[190] Graham Flegg (2002) dates the history of the Hindu-Arabic system to the Indus valley civilization.[190] The inscriptions on the edicts of Ashoka (1st millennium BCE) display this number system being used by the Imperial Mauryas.[190] This system was later transmitted to Europe by the Arabs.[190]

The decimal system can be traced to the Indus valley. We know that they had a decimal like system.

Diophantine equation and Indeterminate equation: The Śulba Sūtras (literally, "Aphorisms of the Chords" in Vedic Sanskrit) (c. 700-400 BCE) list rules for the construction of sacrificial fire altars.[187] Certain Diophantine equations, particularly the case of finding the generation of Pythagorean triples, so one square integer equals the of the other two, are also found

Actual date: 1900-1600BCE

Negative numbers: The use of negative numbers was known in ancient India and their role in mathematical problems of debt and directions between points on a straight line was understood.[195][196] Consistent and correct rules for working with these numbers were formulated.[156] The diffusion of this concept led the Arab intermediaries to pass it on to Europe

Indian mathematician and music theorist Pingala

Pascal triangle: The so-called Pascal triangle was solved by the Indian mathematician Pingala by 300 BCE.[167][168]

Binomial coefficients: The Indian mathematician Pingala, by 300 BCE, had also managed to work with Binomial coefficients.[167][168]

Fibonacci numbers: In mathematics, the Fibonacci numbers are a sequence of numbers named after Leonardo of Pisa, known as Fibonacci.[189] Fibonacci's 1202 book Liber Abaci introduced the sequence to Western European mathematics, although the sequence had been previously described in Indian mathematics.[189] The so-called Fibonacci numbers were also known to the Indian mathematician Pingala by 300 BCE.[168

Binary numbers: The modern system of binary numerals appears in the works of German polymath Gottfried Leibnitz during the 17th century. However, the first description of binary numbers is found in the chandaḥ-śāstra treatise of the Indian mathematician Pingala.[165][166]

I find it amusing how you mentioned some Chinese music theorist in 200BCE extended Chinese music to 12 tones(wow?) Pingala, dated to 300BCE also a musical theorist is using binary numbers and hashing algorithms to arrange musical notes and in the process uses binomial coefficients, solves the so-called Pascal triangle and gives the Fibonacci sequence.


Actual date 1500BCE


Aryabhatta

Trigonometric functions: The trigonometric functions of Sine and Versine, from which it was trivial to derive the Cosine, were discovered by the Indian mathematician, Aryabhata, in the late 5th century

Differential equation: In 499, the Indian mathematician Aryabhata used a notion of infinitesimals and expressed an astronomical problem in the form of a basic differential equation.

Actual date: 699BCE

Mathematical linguistics: Panini

Panini-Backus Form: Pāṇini's grammar rules have have significant similarities to the Backus–Naur Form or BNF grammars used to describe modern programming languages, hence the notation is sometimes referred to as the Panini–Backus Form.[248][249][250]

Formal language and formal grammar: The 4th century BCE Indian scholar Pāṇini is regarded as the forerunner to these modern linguistic fields.[240]

Linguistics: The study of linguistics in India dates back at least two and one-half millennia.[243] During the 5th century BCE, the Indian scholar Pāṇini had made several discoveries in the fields of phonetics, phonology, and morphology.[243]

Actual date: 1500BCE

Source

It is therefore absolutely clear that Indian mathematics is vastly superior to Chinese mathematics(in fact it is vastly superior to all mathematics in the ancient world, there is still no equivalent to Panini’s mathematical linguistics) In fact the Chinese are not even remembered for their mathematical contributions and whatever contributions they did make are most likely learned from India. Most mathematical discoveries were made in India, transmitted to the Arabs who called it a Hindu science, added to it, and then relayed to the West, that developed it further.

[edit on 28-12-2009 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 09:14 AM
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Science and Philosophy

Chinese Science and Philosophy

First law of motion, partial description: The Mohist philosophical canon of the Mojing, compiled by the followers of Mozi (c. 470 – c. 390 BC)

Leprosy, first description of its symptoms: The Feng zhen shi ??? (Models for sealing and investigating), written between 266 and 246 BC in the State of Qin during the Warring States Period (403–221 BC), is the earliest known text which describes the symptoms of leprosy, termed under the generic word li ? (for skin disorders).

Snowflake, observation of its hexagonal structure: In his Moral Discourses Illustrating the Han Text of the Book of Songs of 135 BC, the Han Dynasty (202 BC– 220 AD)

Solar wind, observation of via comet tails: In the Book of Jin compiled during the Tang Dynasty (618–907), a passage written in 635 AD

Sunspots, recognition of as solar phenomena: The astronomer Gan De (fl. 4th century BC) from the State of Qi during the Warring States Period (403–221 BC)

Circadian rhythm, recognition of: The Huangdi Neijing, compiled by the 2nd century BC during the Han Dynasty (202 BC – 220 AD),
Climate change, concept of: In his Dream Pool Essays of 1088, Shen Kuo (1031–1095)

Diabetes, recognition and treatment of: In ancient China, diabetes was aptly called 'dissolutive thirst' due to diabetic patients' excessive thirst and passing of urine.[266] The Huangdi Neijing compiled by the 2nd century BC during the Han Dynasty (202 BC–220 AD)

Some of these are very trivial, that you might as well have not mentioned them. Observation of a snowfake? Are you kidding me
Ahem, lets look at Indian science and philosophy

Indian science and philosophy:

Atomism: The earliest references to the concept of atoms date back to India in the 6th century BCE.[228][229] The Nyaya and Vaisheshika schools developed elaborate theories of how atoms combined into more complex objects (first in pairs, then trios of pairs).[230][231] The references to atoms in the West emerged a century later from Leucippus whose student, Democritus, systematized his views. In approximately 450 BCE, Democritus coined the term átomos

The Nyaya and Vaisheshika also proposed the first laws of mechanics. It describes the motion of an arrow as parabolic because of the force vectors acting on it. The force of gravity(gurutva) is the downwards force and the momentum of the arrow is the horizontal force. It also describes the movement of a needle due to a magnet as due to an invisible force.

Actual date: 1800BCE

Universe: The earliest known philosophical models of the universe are found in the Vedas, the earliest texts on Indian philosophy and Hindu philosophy dating back to the late 2nd millennium BC. They describe ancient Hindu cosmology, in which the universe goes through repeated cycles of creation, destruction and rebirth, with each cycle lasting 4,320,000 years. Hindu and Buddhist philosophers also developed a theory of five classical elements: Vayu (air), Ap (water), Agni (fire), Prithvi/Bhumi (earth) and Akasha (aether). In the 6th century BC, Kanada, founder of the Vaisheshika school, developed a theory of atomism and proposed that light and heat were varieties of the same substance.[254]

Actual date: 3000BCE +

Metrology: The inhabitants of the Indus valley developed a sophisticated system of standardization, using weights and measures, evident by the excavations made at the Indus valley sites.[245] This technical standardization enabled gauging devices to be effectively used in angular measurement and measurement for construction.[245] Calibration was also found in measuring devices along with multiple subdivisions in case of some devices.[245]

Surgery: Sushrata

Cataract surgery: Cataract surgery was known to the Indian physician Sushruta (6th century BCE).[210] In India, cataract surgery was performed with a special tool called the Jabamukhi Salaka, a curved needle used to loosen the lens and push the cataract out of the field of vision.[210] The eye would later be soaked with warm butter and then bandaged.[210] Though this method was successful, Susruta cautioned that cataract surgery should only be performed when absolutely necessary.[210] Greek philosophers and scientists traveled to India where these surgeries were performed by physicians.[210] The removal of cataract by surgery was also introduced into China from India.[211]

Circulatory system: The knowledge of circulation of vital fluids through the body was known to Sushruta (6th century BCE).[100] He also seems to possess knowledge of the arteries, described as 'channels' by Dwivedi & Dwivedi (2007).[100]

Diabetes: Sushruta (6th century BCE) identified Diabetes and classified it as Medhumeha.[100] He further identified it with obesity and sedentary lifestyle, advising exercises to help cure it.[100]
Hypertension: Sushruta (6th century BCE) explained hypertension in a manner which matches the modern symptoms of the disease.[100]

Leprosy: Kearns & Nash (2008) state that the first mention of leprosy is described in the Indian medical treatise Sushruta Samhita (6th century BCE).[213] However, The Oxford Illustrated Companion to Medicine holds that the mention of leprosy, as well as ritualistic cures for it, were described in the Atharva-veda (1500–1200 BCE), written before the Sushruta Samhita.[214]

Angina pectoris: The concept of Hritshoola—literally heart pain—was known to Sushruta (6th century BCE).[100] Dwivedi & Dwivedi (2007) hold that: 'It embodies all the essential components of present day definition, i.e. site, nature, aggravating and relieving factors and referral."[100] Sushruta also linked this kind of pain to obesity (medoroga).[100]

Actual date: 1900-1800BCE

Scientific Medicine and the first encyclopaedia on medicine: Charaka


Charak, sometimes spelled Caraka, born c. 300 BC in a Maga Brahmin family was one of the principal contributors to the ancient art and science of Ayurveda, a system of medicine and lifestyle developed in Ancient India. He is sometimes referred to as the Father of Anatomy.

Charaka was the first physician to present the concept of digestion, metabolism and immunity

Under the guidance of the ancient physician Atreya, Agnivesa had written an encyclopedic treatise in the eighth century B.C. However, it was only when Charaka revised this treatise that it gained popularity and came to be known as Charakasamhita. For two millennia it remained a standard work on the subject and was translated into many foreign languages, including Arabic and Latin

Charaka knew the fundamentals of genetics. For instance, he knew the factors determining the sex of a child. A genetic defect in a child, like lameness or blindness, he said, was not due to any defect in the mother or the father, but in the ovum or sperm of the parents (an accepted fact today).


Source

Actual date: 1500BCE(Charaka) and 2000BCE(Ayurveda) Ayurveda is a very ancient medical system of India and evidence of it being practiced in the Indus valley is also found, as well as advanced dentistry practices as far back as 7000BCE.


It is therefore absolutely clear that India was vastly superior to China in Science and Philosophy. Its system of science and medicine were far more vigorous and scientific than any other system of science and medicine in the ancient world. It was the founder of scientific medicine and surgery, of physical sciences and standardization of measurements. Clearly indicating its highly advanced scientific civilisation. It is most likely that China had learned the fragments of science and philosophy that she does have from India. As there is clear evidence India has already discovered everything she had long before her.

[edit on 28-12-2009 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 10:14 AM
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Technology

If we accept India's profuse references to what sound like nuclear weapons, aeroplanes, human cloning and robots then there is absolutely no contest with Chinese chopsticks
However, as I want this to be an evidence based discussion, I will not appeal to seeming mythology. Let us look at real known technology.

I have to admit in terms of technology Chinese fares better than they do in Mathematics, Science and Philosophy. However, a lot of "technologies" you mention like "chopsticks " and "forks" hardly does justice to that


Chinese technology


A bronze ritual bell 2000 BC,
Coffin, rectangular wooden: The earliest evidence of wooden coffin remains, dating from the 5000 BC

Dagger-axe: The dagger-axe or ge was developed from agricultural stone implement during the Neothilic, dagger-axe made of stone are found in the Longshan culture (3000–2000 BC) site at Miaodian, Henan.

The earliest alligator drums, comprising a wooden frame covered with alligator skin are found in the archaeological sites at Dawenkou (4100 BC–2600 BC), as well as several sites of Longshan (3000 BC–2000 BC) in Shandong and Taosi (2300 BC–1900 BC) in southern Shanxi.[74]

Fork: The fork had been used in China long before the chopstick; a bone fork has been discovered by archaeologists at a burial site of the early Bronze Age Qijia culture (2400–1900 BC), and forks have been found in tombs of the Shang Dynasty (c. 1600–c. 1050 BC) and subsequent Chinese dynasties.

A pottery ding vessel used for cooking from the Yangshao culture (c. 5000–c. 3000 BC)

Treetrunk coffin: The treetrunk coffin, single trunk coffin or boat coffin was one of the common burials found mainly in the southern China. One of the few earliest boat coffins are found among the 92 burial tombs in the Songze culture (4000–3000 BC)

Bronze mirror of the Sui Dynasty (581–618) showing the twelve divisions of the Chinese zodiac, the latter of which goes back to the Warring States Period (403–221 BC) in China

Blast furnace bellows operated by waterwheels, from a book published by Wang Zhen in 1313, Yuan Dynasty

Exploding cannonballs: The Huolongjing military manual compiled by Jiao Yu (fl. 14th to early 15th century)

Co-fusion steel process: Although both Robert Temple and Joseph Needham speculate that it could have existed beforehand, the first clear written evidence of the fusion of wrought iron and cast iron to make steel comes from the 6th century AD

Paper
Printing
Gunpowder
Compass

Indian Technology


Cotton: Cotton was cultivated by the inhabitants of the Indus Valley Civilization by the 5th millennium BCE - 4th millennium BCE.[145] The Indus cotton industry was well developed and some methods used in cotton spinning and fabrication continued to be practiced till the modern Industrialization of India.[146] Well before the Common Era, the use of cotton textiles had spread from India to the Mediterranean and beyond.[147]

Ivory: The use of ivory in India dates to the Indus Valley Civilization (2300-1750 BCE).[260] Archaeological excavations have yielded combs, buttons, and other material made from Ivory.[260] The use of ivory for making figurines in India continued into the 6th century BCE.[260] Banglapedia (2008) holds that: "Stone inscriptions found at the ruins of Sanchi Stupa speak of trading in ivory crafts at Bidisha in the 1st century BC. During the Sung rule (1st century BCE) ivory craftsmen were engaged to work on the gates of the stupas at Bharhut, Buddhgaya and Sanchi. Ivory artefacts dating from the Sung period meant for cosmetic use have also been found at Chandraketu Garh in West Bengal. Ivory crafts were also popular during the Kushan period, as suggested by the abundance of ivory artefacts found at Taxila and Begram.".[260]

Zinc: Zinc was first recognised as a metal in India.[224][225] Zinc mines of Zawar, near Udaipur, Rajasthan, were active during 400 BCE.[226] There are references of medicinal uses of zinc in the Charaka Samhita (300 BCE).[226] The Rasaratna Samuccaya which dates back to the Tantric period (c. 5th - 13th century CE) explains the existence of two types of ores for zinc metal, one of which is ideal for metal extraction while the other is used for medicinal purpose.[226][227]

Bow drill: The bow drill appeared in Mehrgarh between 4th-5th millennium BCE.[7] It was used to drill holes into lapis lazuli and cornelian and was made of green jasper.[7] Similar drills were found in other parts of the Indus Valley Civilization and Iran one millennium later

Corrosion-resistant iron: The first corrosion-resistant iron was used to erect the Iron pillar of Delhi, which has withstood corrosion for over 1,600 years.[29]

Cotton Gin: The Ajanta caves of India yield evidence of a single roller cotton gin in use by the 5th century CE.[30] This cotton gin was used in India until innovations were made in form of foot powered gins.[30] The cotton gin was invented in India as a mechanical device known as charkhi, more technically the "wooden-worm-worked roller". This mechanical device was, in some parts of India, driven by water power.[11]

Hospital: Brahmanic hospitals were established in what is now Sri Lanka as early as 431 BCE.[64] The Indian emperor Ashoka (ruled from 273 BCE to 232 BCE) himself established a chain of hospitals throughout the Mauryan empire (322–185 BCE) by 230 BCE.[64] One of the edicts of Ashoka (272—231 BCE) reads: "Everywhere King Piyadasi (Asoka) erected two kinds of hospitals, hospitals for people and hospitals for animals. Where there were no healing herbs for people and animals, he ordered that they be bought and planted."[65]

Oven: The earliest ovens were excavated at Balakot, a site of the Indus Valley Civilization. The ovens date back to the civilization's mature phase (c. 2500-1900 BCE).[60]

Plough, animal-drawn: The earliest archeological evidence of an animal-drawn plough dates back to 2500 BC in the Indus Valley Civilization.[102]

Private bathroom and Toilet: By 2800 BCE, private bathrooms, located on the ground floor, were found in nearly all the houses of the Indus Valley Civilization.[107] The pottery pipes in walls allowed drainage of water and there was, in some case, provision of a crib for sitting.[107] The Indus Valley Civilization had some of the most advanced private lavatories in the world.[107] "Western-style" toilets were made from bricks using toilet seats made of wood on top.[107] The waste was then transmitted to drainage systems.[107]

Puppets and Puppetry: Evidence of puppetry comes from the excavations at the Indus Valley.[108] Archaeologists have unearthed terracotta dolls with detachable heads capable of manipulation by a string dating to 2500 BCE.[108] Other excavations include terracotta animals which could be manipulated up and down a stick—-archiving minimum animation in both cases.[108] The epic Mahabharata; Tamil literature from the Sangam Era, and various literary works dating from the late centuries BCE to the early centuries of the Common Era—including Ashokan edicts—describe puppets

Sewage collection and disposal systems: Large-scale sanitary sewer systems were in place in the Indus Valley by 2700 BCE.[107] The drains were 7–10 feet wide and 2 feet (0.61 m) below ground level.[107] The sewage was then led into cesspools, built at the intersection of two drains, which had stairs leading to them for periodic cleaning.[107] Plumbing using earthenware plumbing pipes with broad flanges for easy joining with asphalt to stop leaks was in place by 2700 BCE.[107]

Swimming pool: The "great bath" at the site of Mohenjo-daro was most likely dug during the 3rd millennium BC. This pool is 12 by 7 meters, is lined with bricks and was covered with a tar-based sealant.[125]

Urban planning: Remains of major Indus cities (mature period c. 2600–1900 BCE) display distinct characteristics of urban planning such as streets crossing each other at right angles, well arranged rows of structures as well as neatly built, covered drainage and sewage lines, complete with maintenance sumps, running along backlanes.[136][137] Drains in the ancient maritime city of Lothal for example, designed to be able to take out the city’s entire domestic sewage and storm-water were mostly underground, and built to high levels of uniformity, whereby the slopes never exceed 1 in 10,000.[137][138] In terms of segregation, Lothal was divided into three districts: the citadel, the lower town and the dockyard, which were further divided into smaller administration centres, all having well planned infrastructure such as wide, straight roads along neatly arranged buildings to suit their purpose.


Once again it's a no contest. The best you have to show for China in 3000BCE and prior is chopsticks, forks, coffins and drums
Wow, amazing
The best I have to show for India for 3000BCE and prior is an urban civilisation with industries, planned cities, houses with bathrooms and toilets and plumbing, sewage systems, ovens, swimming pools, docks. It's like comparing people living in the stone age to the industrial age lol

India was the most advanced technological civilisation of the ancient world well up into the 18th century. It had an industrial civilisation since the times of the Indus. It was producing cotton, glass, zinc, steel, ships. There is no parallel in the ancient world. Even cities in the 18th century in Europe were behind.



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 10:24 AM
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Conclusion

The no-contest between ancient India and China above has basically demonstrated conclusively that Indians were the most advanced scientific, philosophical and technological civilisation of the ancient world. Mathematics, physics, medicine, philosophy, engineering, economics and civil administration, urban planning all originate in India - just as many Western intellectuals believed before the disinformation agents started to distort history. It is undoubtably the superpower of the ancient world. Its closest contempoaries Mesopotamia and China are eons behind. To compare them to India is a joke.

Of course though this is very groundbreaking for the history of the world and I am declaring it to thousands of readers on ATS with ample proof, this thread will fall into obscurity soon, because most people on ATS don't give a damn about an advanced Indian civilisation. They are interested in looking for advanced space-age Sumerian and Egyptian civilisation. After all, who cares about the truth now days? The people who genuinely seek the truth are a minority on this planet.

[edit on 28-12-2009 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 10:45 AM
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WOW


>>> Indigo_Child ... what an amazing volume of information.

I have just finished reading ... and can I just say I pay you the respect you deserve for managing to continue and not allowing yourself to be put-off by one particular poster.

Thank-you so much I feel I have learned a great deal here about Indian civilization and culture. I must confess I knew very little before.

S&F for your hard work.




>>> 13579


OMG ... I'm guessing that piece of coal that someone shoved up your ass at christmas must be a diamond by now with that amount of anal retention.




I'm so pleased the OP wasn't destracted by your sad effort.

Woody



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 12:24 PM
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Originally posted by Indigo_Child
reply to post by Project2501
 


Project, I have seen this information posted before in Anti-Hindu articles posted on Islamic fundamentalist web sites. I don't think you are setting a good example by promoting islamic fundamentalism here. This is based on perverted interpretations of Indian texts. Incests, homosexuality, muder everything can be found by somebody who wants to look for that and interpret a mythological tale or ritual as that. I have seen just as many articles on Islam showing Mohammed to be a pedophile and homosexual posted on Anti-Islam sites. You have really missed the point of this thread. I think it would be best we stop this discussion here.


Those anti-islamic articles can't back their weak claims against Prophet Muhammad.

Hindus "Trimurti" of Brahma the supposed unchanging, infinite, reality - That being all matter, energy, time, space, being, and everything beyond in this Universe. While Vishnu is Brahma in maintainer or preserver form. As Shiva is Brahma in destroyer or transformer form. This all ties into the Symbolic ":::33:::"Thirty-three gods" of the hindu pantheon. Not to be Confused with the "Trāyastriṃśa" of the buddhas Symbolic $33$!

And the Hindu chakra system is built from the "Sri Chakra" Celestial Temple of Divine Reality/Brahma & in the center is the "Bindu," Now Bindu refers to an aspect of the anatomy of the 'subtle body' composed of 'drops' combining into the complete subsystem of the chakra of mortals obtainable? Ah but you see there is the "Sudarshana Chakra" the divine chakra to obtain as well or is it obtainable by your negativity and low levels? The Divine Sudarshana Chakra is a device of purity indeed? From what fountain do you flow.

Also isn't the ULTIMATE point of hinduism "Moksha?" I mean Moksha is the total release of & liberation from samsara which means no more cycles of death & rebirth, hence forth no more reincarnation. Of course this is after the realization that the Atman is in fact Paramatman. Now that is a Yoga/Connection of wisdom for thought? Kind of like a "Lingam" into a "Yoni!"

As well do you believe that 2012 is the 26,000 hindu cycle of the "Yuga" another words we are in the Kali Yuga? The last Yuga cycle of the over all Yugas? Do you hope to be reincarnated as a rock or a goat next go round? Or perhaps a female bitch dog? Such as this gentlemen

"Indian man marries dog"
"P. Selvakumar, a 33-year-old farm labourer from the southern state of Tamil Nadu, married the four-year-old stray bitch after it was bathed and processed to his village temple dressed in an orange sari and garlanded with flowers."


Btw Brahma's Incest & Rape is what created all things of reality in the universe in hinduism & to not accept that fact is to abandon your faith of hinduism. As well you you must accept reincarnation, Divine horse sex?
Those wishing reincarnation are those who just can't let go of being tyrants because the world never met anyone who has reincarnated who propped it up truly well enough to matter much?



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 01:03 PM
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Originally posted by Project2501

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
reply to post by Project2501
 


You are obviously trolling for a Hinduism vs Islam fight. You shouldn't bother because you would definitely lose.

There is evidence in fact to back-up the claims against Prophet Mohammed. I am not going to go posting it here, as you are with the horse claims. If you seriously want to debate those claims against Mohammed I dare you to post a topic up in the religious forum saying "Prophet Mohammed was a noble, peace loving man" You will get swamped I assure you.



Or perhaps a female bitch dog? Such as this gentlemen

"Indian man marries dog"
"P. Selvakumar, a 33-year-old farm labourer from the southern state of Tamil Nadu, married the four-year-old stray bitch after it was bathed and processed to his village temple dressed in an orange sari and garlanded with flowers."


If you accept this is representative of Hinduism and Indians, do you accept this as representantive of Islam

Woman stoned to death by Muslims



Btw Brahma's Incest & Rape is what created all things of reality in the universe in hinduism & to not accept that fact is to abandon your faith of hinduism. As well you you must accept reincarnation, Divine horse sex?
Those wishing reincarnation are those who just can't let go of being tyrants because the world never met anyone who has reincarnated who propped it up truly well enough to matter much?


Nope, Brahmas incest and rape is not what created the world in Hinduism. The world in Hinduism is created by the ONE appearing to become many due to the cosmic vibration of AUM emanating from the centre of existence. It undergoes endless cycles of creation and destruction. Existence however is eternal and most learned Hindus will tell you that there never has been a creation.

Sex with divine horses? I don't know what you are talking about. I think you have been taken in by some anti-Hindu propoganda posted on Islamic fundamentalist web sites. I believe you are referring to the Asvamedha Vedic sacrifice that early colonial scholars interpreted to be the literal sacrifice of a horse. There are other interpretations showing that there was no sacrifice of horses, the word asva does not just mean horse, it also means "swift-like-a-horse" and "administration" If asvamedha meant horse, then this means the Vedic sacrifice Pitrimedha means "sacrifice of the ancestors" how could the Vedic people have sacrificed the ancestors?

I covered interpretation of Vedic texts earlier on in this thread. The colonial translations of the Vedas are distorted and corruped to make it consistent with Aryan invasion theory. The traditional Indian translations of the Vedas are different. There is nothing about sacrificing horses in them.


[edit on 28-12-2009 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by Indigo_Child

You are obviously trolling for a Hinduism vs Islam fight. You shouldn't bother because you would definitely lose.


I don't care for your "ad hominem" "Application of the term troll as it is highly subjective. Some readers may characterize a post as trolling, while others may regard the same post as a legitimate contribution to the discussion, even if controversial. The term is often used as an ad hominem strategy to discredit an opposing position by attacking its proponent." This is most typical behavior in a attempt to discredit the truth.


Originally posted by Indigo_Child
If you accept this is representative of Hinduism and Indians, do you accept this as representantive of Islam

Woman stoned to death by Muslims


Islam has 4 compartments
- The word of God in the Qur'an - “The Recitation”
- The word of the Prophet Muhammad
- The word of the Historians - Al-Ghazali
- The Arabian Nights/Poems around the camp fire

Islam translates as Peace.


Anything that's good is just that good & acceptable, Anything that's bad is just that bad & unacceptable. While things of the unknown make us all shrug!

The Noble Qur'an Sura 5:The Table, Verse:32
Because of this did We ordain unto the children of Israel that if anyone slays a human being-unless it be [in punishment] for murder or for spreading corruption on earth-it shall be as though he had slain all mankind; whereas, if anyone saves a life, it shall be as though he had saved the lives of all mankind. And, indeed, there came unto them Our apostles with all evidence of the truth: yet, behold, notwithstanding all this, many of them go on committing all manner of excesses on earth.

I believe that clears that up.

The Noble Qur'an Sura 3:The Family of 'Imran, Verse,7
He it is who has bestowed upon thee from on high this divine writ, containing messages that are clear in and by themselves - and these are the essence of the divine writ - as well as others that are allegorical. Now those whose hearts are given to swerving from the truth go after that part of the divine writ which has been expressed in allegory, seeking out [what is bound to create] confusion, and seeking [to arrive at] its final meaning [in an arbitrary manner]; but none save God knows its final meaning. Hence, those who are deeply rooted in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole [of the divine writ] is from our Sustainer - albeit none takes this to heart save those who are endowed with insight.

And this one shows us a great reward. It means we should establish ourselves with exoteric knowledge first, as this is the foundation of reality/God. While there is esoteric wisdom of the divine that can be built upon the foundation of reality. But if your constantly with your head in the clouds dreaming clearly you are cut off from your own people as well as your own mind.


Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Nope, Brahmas incest and rape is not what created the world in Hinduism. The world in Hinduism is created by the ONE appearing to become many due to the cosmic vibration of AUM emanating from the centre of existence. It undergoes endless cycles of creation and destruction. Existence however is eternal and most learned Hindus will tell you that there never has been a creation.


I always believed it was Gods angels/atoms/matter/energy/particles/nature itself invocating/"Dhikr" this is the vibrational force of the universe itself. AUM/Om32 is the Hermetic "Fiat Lux" after matter was made it was filled with energy/smokeless fire? The Universe itself is Personalty & Mathematics, sacred geometry manifesting itself to those who can will action esoterically.



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 05:37 PM
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Anything that's good is just that good & acceptable, Anything that's bad is just that bad & unacceptable. While things of the unknown make us all shrug!

The Noble Qur'an Sura 5:The Table, Verse:32
Because of this did We ordain unto the children of Israel that if anyone slays a human being-unless it be [in punishment] for murder or for spreading corruption on earth-it shall be as though he had slain all mankind; whereas, if anyone saves a life, it shall be as though he had saved the lives of all mankind. And, indeed, there came unto them Our apostles with all evidence of the truth: yet, behold, notwithstanding all this, many of them go on committing all manner of excesses on earth.

I believe that clears that up.


Likewise, in Hinduism whatever is aryan(noble) is good and acceptable and whatever is non-aryan(ignoble) is not acceptable. Stoning of women, terrorism and murder of innocent people is not acceptable to a true Muslim's sensibility and this is based on or perverted intepretations. Likewise, some Indian man marrying a dog, ancient bizarre rituals of incest, homosexuality and animal and human sacrifice is not accepteable to a Hindu's sensibility and this is based on perverted interpretations.

There are several hadiths that portray Prophet Mohammed as cruel, criminalm, rapist and evil and there are several early Islamic Caliphs that interprett the Quran as preaching murder and forced conversion of non-muslims and then went and killed masses of people. Now Islam compared to Hinduism is a young religion, and already you can see how much corruption has appeared in it even as early as the death of Prophet Mohammed, but the discrimiinating Muslim knows that it is corruption. Then can you not accept Hinduism being thousands of years older would also have corruption, but the discriminating Hindu would know that it is corruption.

The various evils you see in Hinduism such as caste oppression, burning wives(sati) bizarre sexual rituals are not there in the original texts we consider sacred. These are socio-historical practices that emerged in different times in India. We know that Hinduism became very corrupt, hence why Buddhism and Jainism arose and later India became prety to invaders because it became too pacifist. Hindus know that the Kali Yuga began in 3102BCE at the death of Krishna and India and Hinduism has been in decline since then.
Original Aryan religion was very pure and spiritual, and the main form of practice was meditation to connect with the divine. There was no polytheism then. This is why we remember it as Sat Yuga(The age of truth) a spiritual golden age that we left behind in prehistory.



I always believed it was Gods angels/atoms/matter/energy/particles/nature itself invocating/"Dhikr" this is the vibrational force of the universe itself. AUM/Om32 is the Hermetic "Fiat Lux" after matter was made it was filled with energy/smokeless fire? The Universe itself is Personalty & Mathematics, sacred geometry manifesting itself to those who can will action esoterically.



Hindus have similar beliefs but with key distinctions. I know Islam is anti-pantheism, so it has problems with the Hindu belief that all is ultimately divine and we are all part and parcel of god. The material world is god's energy and therefore we believe the essence of the world to be divine.
It is illogical for Hindus to believe in a separate dualism of there being a god and a material world that is separate. If god created the world he created it out of his own being. As the Vedas say god projected the world out of himself.

You believe that that god brought this world out of nothingness. This is illogical to a Hindu. Something can never come out of nothing for a Hindu. If in the beginning there was god, then this means that the world was made out of the same substance of god. Hence why Hindus believe everything is consciousness.

A learned Hindu would tell you there has been no original creation. This entire existence is the infinite ONE. The only creation that has taken place is the one in our minds. The limited mind cannot understand the infinite so it is forced to think in terms of beginning and end. In other words Hindus have a very cosmic understanding of religion.

The human body has no special place in Hinduism. The human life is insignificant before the trillions of years of Brahma. This is why we believe in reincarnation. You Muslims do not believe in reincarnation because you place too much importance on your human life, you think this is it, god creates you as special, puts you on this planet to enjoy yourself and created women and animals for your enjoyment. We Hindus think your beliefs are childish, patriarchal and self-indulgent. They are only there to give you security and nothing else. As you alluded earlier you do not like the notion of infinite. You said it would take 6 births to assimilate all the Hindu texts. Well the fact is there is infinite knowledge, an infinite existence consisting of countless galaxies that you cannot possibly comprehend and experience in one life time. Did god put you in this universe just to experience one infinitesimal part of it? How rubbish is that prospect. What about those people who born disabled or in poverty or due at birth, how much do they get to experience? Why does god allow some souls to have great enjoyment and others nothing but unending pain? Does this not make your god an insensitive and unfair being?

We Hindus do not have to worry about this contradiction. We know we come into incarnation to experience life and because the totality of life cannot be experienced in one life time, we know there are countless lifetimes we incarnate in and evolve in. We know that whatever the world gives us is our own karma. We have to EARN our karma to live a better life.
This is a far more enlightened and logical belief than the illogical belief your religion has. I would never worship your god, because my logic and soul deems your god unworthy of my worship. I worship the infinite ONE, not Allah.


[edit on 28-12-2009 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 09:11 PM
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Originally posted by Indigo_Child
There are several hadiths that portray Prophet Mohammed as cruel, criminalm, rapist and evil and there are several early Islamic Caliphs that interprett the Quran as preaching murder and forced conversion of non-muslims and then went and killed masses of people. Now Islam compared to Hinduism is a young religion, and already you can see how much corruption has appeared in it even as early as the death of Prophet Mohammed, but the discrimiinating Muslim knows that it is corruption. Then can you not accept Hinduism being thousands of years older would also have corruption, but the discriminating Hindu would know that it is corruption.


"The Qur'an Alone" also known as Qur'anic Muslims. And this crushes the ill hadith attempts completely. While accepting anything that's good is just that good & acceptable, Anything that's bad is just that bad & unacceptable. While things of the unknown make us all shrug!

And as for Islam being so young well why is the Qur'an so perfect? The word repetitions in the Qur'an are a "mathematical miracle" that is not shared by the hindus I believe? As well for the "scientific miracles" of the Qur'an, I don't believe the hindus share this ability as well in their scriptures?


Originally posted by Indigo_Child
You believe that that god brought this world out of nothingness. This is illogical to a Hindu. Something can never come out of nothing for a Hindu. If in the beginning there was god, then this means that the world was made out of the same substance of god. Hence why Hindus believe everything is consciousness.


I don't know where I stated this? "You believe that that god brought this world out of nothingness." I believe it is you saying it not I

The Noble Qur'an Sura 40:The Forgiver Verse:57
Greater indeed than the creation of man is the creation of the heavens and the earth: yet most men do not understand [what this implies].

God makes the world and we make the moral. And your moralistic conception is that the world came from nothingness? Do you say the same-thing with everything you create. Is it meaningless because you believe it to be from nothingness just because you are in ignorance of the origin. Make God a reality, and God will make you the truth. The closer one approaches reality, the nearer one comes to unity.

This is like saying you need to be the table you just built, In order to understand it? I don't believe I personally would need to be the table I built in order to know my craft.


Originally posted by Indigo_Child
We Hindus think your beliefs are childish, patriarchal and self-indulgent. They are only there to give you security and nothing else. As you alluded earlier you do not like the notion of infinite. You said it would take 6 births to assimilate all the Hindu texts. Well the fact is there is infinite knowledge, an infinite existence consisting of countless galaxies that you cannot possibly comprehend and experience in one life time. Did god put you in this universe just to experience one infinitesimal part of it? How rubbish is that prospect. What about those people who born disabled or in poverty or due at birth, how much do they get to experience? Why does god allow some souls to have great enjoyment and others nothing but unending pain? Does this not make your god an insensitive and unfair being?


The connection to reality/God itself is our five senses. And if someone is born disabled there could be many factors to why they aren't connected fully to reality? This universe is Gods Kingdom for us to live in, be it a very impressive & incredibly expanding one at that.

Remember all intellectual knowledge is in fact a very well camouflaged ignorance. 6 births? Candy Store of Knowledge for what?



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 11:02 PM
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And as for Islam being so young well why is the Qur'an so perfect? The word repetitions in the Qur'an are a "mathematical miracle" that is not shared by the hindus I believe? As well for the "scientific miracles" of the Qur'an, I don't believe the hindus share this ability as well in their scriptures?


Those claims are based on certain interpretations. I do not take such claims seriously. There are just as many Hindu authors that make similar claims about Vedas talking about electrcity, nuclear fission and aeroplanes; I don't take them seriously either.

I think one would have to be insecure to appeal to science to prove their religion. The following Rig Veda hymn is often compared to the big bang:


This is the famous nāsadīya sūkta the 129th suukta of the 10th mandala of the Rigveda.

Then even nothingness was not, nor existence,
There was no air then, nor the heavens beyond it.
What covered it? Where was it? In whose keeping
Was there then cosmic water, in depths unfathomed?

Then there was neither death nor immortality
nor was there then the torch of night and day.
The One breathed windlessly and self-sustaining.
There was that One then, and there was no other.

At first there was only darkness wrapped in darkness.
All this was only unillumined water.
That One which came to be, enclosed in nothing,
arose at last, born of the power of heat

In the beginning desire descended on it -
that was the primal seed, born of the mind.
The sages who have searched their hearts with wisdom
know that which is kin to that which is not.

And they have stretched their cord across the void,
and know what was above, and what below.
Seminal powers made fertile mighty forces.
Below was strength, and over it was impulse.

But, after all, who knows, and who can say
Whence it all came, and how creation happened?
the gods themselves are later than creation,
so who knows truly whence it has arisen?

Whence all creation had its origin,
he, whether he fashioned it or whether he did not,
he, who surveys it all from highest heaven,
he knows - or maybe even he does not know.

It is easy to interpret this as the big bang. It is describing the beginning as an undifferentiated and infinite ONEness which then suddenly comes into being through the power of heat, containing the seeds for all of creation.
But that interpretation does not do justice to the hymn, which is spiritual and philosophical. It is saying the first seed of manifestation is "desire" born of the mind. In other words creation begins in the mind. If you take out the mind out of the equation then there is only that infinite ONE.


God makes the world and we make the moral. And your moralistic conception is that the world came from nothingness? Do you say the same-thing with everything you create. Is it meaningless because you believe it to be from nothingness just because you are in ignorance of the origin. Make God a reality, and God will make you the truth. The closer one approaches reality, the nearer one comes to unity.

This is like saying you need to be the table you just built, In order to understand it? I don't believe I personally would need to be the table I built in order to know my craft.


If you accept in the beginning there is just that infinite ONE, then there is nothing else for this ONE to create something out of, but itself. Thus it is only logical to say creation(including us) are made out of the ONE. The table you build is made out of the same substance you are made out of.


The connection to reality/God itself is our five senses. And if someone is born disabled there could be many factors to why they aren't connected fully to reality? This universe is Gods Kingdom for us to live in, be it a very impressive & incredibly expanding one at that.

Remember all intellectual knowledge is in fact a very well camouflaged ignorance. 6 births? Candy Store of Knowledge for what?


As soon as you start introducing unknown factors in you bring in either chance or karma. They are born disabled either because of chance and this makes their life meaningless because it is simply chance. They are therefore not sent by god and therefore are not judged by god - or - they incarnate disabled because of past life karma. The latter makes the most sense. If you can incarnate once, there is no reason to believe that you cannot incarnate again. If the reason for your incarnation is still present whether that is karma or chance, you can come here again. Reincarnation therefore makes the most sense.

Intellectual knowledge gives you the map, teaches you how to build the ship and how to use the compass to make your journey. If you make your journey with a partial map, a poorly built ship and without a compass you will get stranded out at sea.

[edit on 28-12-2009 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Dec, 28 2009 @ 11:03 PM
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I am so sick and tired of you trying to re-write history.

The facts are the facts are the facts - here is the cradle of civilization - END OF STORY

en.wikipedia.org...

Its a fact - the Indus Valley followed Mesopotamia - ok. You cant just change that because you are Indian and want it to be so. You cant just change the facts by ignoring them either.

Finally here is something you fail to address over and over again - the AUSTRALIAN ABORIGINALS HAVE A CONTINUOUS CIVILIZATION IN AUSTRALIA SPANNING BETWEEN 60 and 90 THOUSAND YEARS - why is it you REFUSE TO ADDRESS THIS - do you have some sort of mental defect ?

Is this some sort of genetic Indian mental defect that you simply can not absorb arguments which totally destroy your own.

Here it is one more time - the cradle of civilization as accepted by every University, Museum Archaeologist, historian, academic on EARTH is the Sumer civilization in Mesopotamia - everything you have presented comes AFTER THIS !!

LEARN TO READ and stop such a belligerent TROLL !



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