The United States is a Republic not a democracy

Originally posted by ownbestenemy
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

Jean Paul I have to agree. I am not saying Plato was pedantic. I was actually being sarcastic in nature regarding that post.

On the one hand I will agree...it is a Spy Vs. Spy mentality regarding semantics. On the other, passionate people trying to establish what the United States of America should be, should do so not only in shouting, but with strong unbreakable determination.

This is only my opinion. As I have asked before.....can anyone point out what the USA has evolved into?

I don't think anyone can tag this evolution using the current lexicon.

we cannot even agree upon facts on this board, trying to determine cause and effect is
an impossible task...

I think this is all evidence of the true engine of our democratic republic, a constant and self perpetuating imbalance. Maybe thats the point, maybe this is how it has always appeared and felt here. It seems there has been some addition to the old titles and proclamations, all is not exclusive



[edit on 27-12-2009 by Janky Red]

Originally posted by ownbestenemy
So no one here is philosophizing?

unfortunately, no. the OP's intent is not to philosophize. the OP is simply relishing an opportunity to be "smarter than you."

it happens often on ATS, in particular with usage of democracy. we will be in the midst of in-depth political conversation and inevitably some dork will come around and be like: "well ACTUALLY.....blah blah blah."

its pretty annoying and it is a farce to see an entire thread dedicated to it. congratulations, OP, on being that guy.

reply to post by tgidkp


I cannot say that I agree with you. It not wrong to point out something that is commonly held to be true is in fact false. At least he knows this country is and once was a Great Republic.

reply to post by av8r007


There were a lot of great Republics.
Remember the Soviet's Socialist's Republic?
Also a Republic.
The framers of the US Constitution created a Representative Democracy... but there were too many syllables to use this in the Pledge and have it rhyme so now everyone is all confused.

Originally posted by ownbestenemy
reply to post by Lilitu

 

Where does one engage in philosophical debate....I want to know so I can join them.

(...)

WHOA.....sorry...enjoyed too many Sam Adams

You might consider an institution of higher learning rather than a saloon.

reply to post by rusethorcain


You are quite wrong. It is in the Constitution several places that this country is to be a Republican form of government. It is a Republic to which we are extremely lucky the founding fathers had the forethought to set it up that way. You've never heard of Benjamin Franklin's quote when a woman asked what sort of government the new country would be?

Mrs. Powel asked "Well Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?" to which Benjamin replied, "A republic if you can keep it."

Other quotes that support the founding fathers were against any sort of Democracy.

Benjamin Rush: "A simple democracy ... is one of the greatest of evils (1789).

James Madison: "Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have, in general, been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths" (1787).

John Adams: "Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide" (1814).

The United States of America is a Republic.

[edit on 27-12-2009 by av8r007]

[edit on 27-12-2009 by av8r007]

reply to post by av8r007


Of course it was based upon the concept of a Republic because until you create something it cannot exist. Of course we were not a Monarchy (I think in name only) and by definition we are a Republic but we are a new form of Republic, one in which a democracy prevails by virtue of representatives.
Based on the concept of a Republic we are more accurately a Representative Democracy. To say we are a Republic is about as defining as saying we have a government...not much.
I think this system is antiquated and feel we can represent ourselves as the democracy was intended for each individual to have their say.
An educated constituency is necessary for this to work and here this is why it doesn't. Many of us are poorly educated and will hop on whatever bandwagon that comes along promising to rescue us from what is ultimately, ourselves.
Representatives are sent to congress to speak for us. We can speak for ourselves now whereas then the tally of votes was carried on horseback to Washington and presented by a representative from the district.

Everyone with real power is on the take. Government watchdog agencies have been telling us this for decades. We are a democratic Republic in name only because this is what the people wanted but we are a Monarchy in disguise. We are a government, and country wholly manipulated by the rich. Where are your opportunities if you are a regular or normal person and not of outstanding enterprise, wisdom or luck? Then you end up a sheep to be sheered daily. The poor are occasionally allowed their say, through focus groups which support them. Every now and then we stage an election or do something which appears we are a democracy. This is enough for most people, who really are too sick and tired to care who is running what. They are bone tired from working a minimum wage just to eat and keep a roof over their head.
We are laborers and lab rats stuck in a caste system but our difference is socio-economic you are led to believe it is about race..."If not for them" and pitted against ourselves, as we see happening everyday.
This is to divide us, all of us that really want the same thing, peace, individual privacy rights and personal liberty, the ability to support oneself in a 40 hour week of work and come out with an excellent quality of life. We want to be healthy and have healthy options available.

Right now and for the past 30 years the opposite of this adgenda has been in effect. We have been steamrolled for a long time It did not begin recently. To think Obama can come in and break up a system that has been working well for it's inventors and investors throughout the course of civil history in one fell swoop is unrealistic. I think he has been quite literally delivered to break the chain of the past. I think it is possible he has gone astray but like they all do once in power, power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Still he should be given a chance to upright this system that has utterly collapsed in his hands. The real power brokers are hiding behind their corporate logos now, crying about regulation and how the government is taking over, while we look and agree and rally against what I believe is our only hope.
Of course I could be wrong, but you and I seem to see the same things, differently.

Plutocracy

1. the rule or power of wealth or of the wealthy.
2. a government or state in which the wealthy class rules.
3. a class or group ruling, or exercising power or influence, by virtue of its wealth.

Hegemony

1. leadership or predominant influence exercised by one nation over others, as in a confederation.
2. leadership; predominance.
3. (esp. among smaller nations) aggression or expansionism by large nations in an effort to achieve world domination.


You people need to stop lying to yourselves, stop holding on to this constipation...oops...constitution CRAP and realize that you've been living a lie for all these years.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
Plutocracy

1. the rule or power of wealth or of the wealthy.
2. a government or state in which the wealthy class rules.
3. a class or group ruling, or exercising power or influence, by virtue of its wealth.

Hegemony

1. leadership or predominant influence exercised by one nation over others, as in a confederation.
2. leadership; predominance.
3. (esp. among smaller nations) aggression or expansionism by large nations in an effort to achieve world domination.


You people need to stop lying to yourselves, stop holding on to this constipation...oops...constitution CRAP and realize that you've been living a lie for all these years.

Thank you very much. Order through CHAOS. Hello?
Did we think that the Builder-burg Group was a chess club?
They are running things. And every now and then they need to go underground. They are scrambling for cover now.
This must be a good thing. All of a sudden people are blaming Obama when the man was not even born when all this began. It is ludicrous to me but these world powers are beyond clever and unscrupulous is a way of life.

reply to post by Lilitu


Witty...did you get that out of the "Jokes for Dummies"?

Interesting though I continue with a conversation, while you decided to just focus on being the class clown.

Originally posted by robwerden
What I see as the point of this thread is the style of government being advertised by the Constitution is not being delivered.

no it is not
not at all

this country is to be something new and it must work
right now it's a mess but there is still time

if we really want it, we'll get it
because it IS what the world needs: a truly free land

Ultimately I do intend on getting as many people as I can to refrain from practicing or accepting the practice of democracy.

by that, do you mean the voting system?
i'm not sure what you mean, exactly

Originally posted by robwerden
That being said, and going off the topic as it was originally intended, the act of electing officials is a major problem because of the democracy required to do it. I find many flaws in the majority vote because it opens up to special interests.
I do not personally have a solution to that, other than repercussions on the elected officials for not following the rule of law which stems from the constitution. The process of elections has been modified to try and fix many problems over the years, but It always boils down to what they do after they are elected. If we elect them to do something that is democracy. If we elect them to serve the constitution that is a Republic. The truth is we do need to elect people and the elections do need a majority rule. The reason for the election though needs to be to serve the Constitution and not the needs of the majority.

i'm sure you've heard of Pericles? and Athenian Democracy?

the answers, or at least some of them, seem to lie in this long-ago demonstration in Greece.

Athens was one of the very first known democracies. Other Greek cities set up democracies, most but not all following an Athenian model, but none were as powerful, stable, or as well-documented as that of Athens. It remains a unique and intriguing experiment in direct democracy where the people do not elect representatives to vote on their behalf but vote on legislation and executive bills in their own right. Participation was by no means open, but the in-group of participants was constituted with no reference to economic class and they participated on a scale that was truly phenomenal. The public opinion of voters was remarkably influenced by the political satire performed by the comic poets at the theatres.

even the last sentence appeals to me in a logical and obvious manner
this kind of democracy, a DIRECT democracy, is truly "of the people, by the people, and for the people."

Greek democracy created at Athens was a direct, not a representative democracy: any adult male citizen of age could take part, and it was a duty to do so. The officials of the democracy were in part elected by the Assembly and in large part chosen by lot.

are you familiar with how the Assembly was filled?
kind of like Jury Duty in the US, in the sense that everyone did their turn in Assembly. every one eventually served Athens for just 2 years, after which nothing more was required of them by way of serving the people.

there are many more details and curiosities, but i wanted to see how much you were familiar with Athenian ideas before i say much more.

i personally see a lot of things that could provide excellent models in remodeling our own unruly "democracy."

------------
i also think that much of the problem lies not in political systems, but rather those that are economic in nature.
specifically, capitalism

Originally posted by av8r007
The United States of America is a Republic.

Well, if quotes are good:

"As I would not be a master, as I would not be a slave. That is my idea of democracy."

-- Lincoln

reply to post by ownbestenemy


Energy, Pharmeceuticals, HMO's, Financial, Military contractors, the NRA......the list goes on and on. They contributed mightily to the GOP and now they demand their return on investment. Of course the GOP leaders are all heavily invested in these corporations, which makes them part of the problem as well.

Need proof, how about the bail out.

We the people do not call the shots, it is "Corporate America" that has ruled this country - all in the name of profit.

Have you researched or read on this? It's obvious that America has not been run by the people and for the people for a loooooooooooong time.

Wake up!

Time to emerge from the Matrix.



[edit on 28-12-2009 by ofhumandescent]

reply to post by krzyspmac

Sadly... there are not pure democracies out there. We are all being ruled by elite. It's a republic thing. Rome has been rules by a number of families. The people though, needed to be shown that something is being done for them hence the "games".

Yep you know the score.

A star for your post.

Even our "votes" are a sham it's all games.

and the vast majority of the public has been mind conditioned to believe the bs.

Originally posted by ofhumandescent
Energy, Pharmeceuticals, HMO's, Financial, Military contractors, the NRA......the list goes on and on. They contributed mightily to the GOP and now they demand their return on investment. Of course the GOP leaders are all heavily invested in these corporations, which makes them part of the problem as well.

Need proof, how about the bail out.

We the people do not call the shots, it is "Corporate America" that has ruled this country - all in the name of profit.

Have you researched or read on this? It's obvious that America has not been run by the people and for the people for a loooooooooooong time.

that's right
CAPITALISM

capitalism is a wide term and there are various examples
HOWEVER, in this country, trade and economy has become a tool of the rich and powerful rather than goods and services produced by the common working class

and that's the primary reason the dollar is becoming a joke

it is a lot like France was, before the revolution

not that bad yet but getting increasingly top-heavy while at the same time the foundation is being eat away slowly and undermining the whole overweight beast

Originally posted by Lilitu

Originally posted by ownbestenemy
reply to post by Lilitu

 

Where does one engage in philosophical debate....I want to know so I can join them.

(...)

WHOA.....sorry...enjoyed too many Sam Adams

You might consider an institution of higher learning rather than a saloon.

I might think this correct but some of the best information has come from lips loosened by beverage.

Put everything concerning us up for debate, have experts leaders in the field weigh in and then vote using our ss# and the computer. F the representatives. One vote per SS#. If we are not complete fools and idiots this would work.
If my government can keep track of each penny I earn from jobs I'd forgotten I had, just to get it's corrupt and dirty hands on my hard earned tax dollars, it ought to be able to tally my vote.
Yea or Nay on everything that affects me. What is the problem with this?
Is this too modern? Unconstitutional?