Is Your Church Caesar?

reply to post by mynameisjuan

Thankfully, those romans loved paul so much, they they credited his 'book' with being truthful. In court, I do believe, if a witness gives testimony that directly contradicts his previous testimony, isn't ALL the testimony thrown out?

And who's statue in rome was replaced by a statue of "St. Paul"?

As far as I know the whole book of Acts was written by one man, some one who hung around Paul for awhile, some say Luke. If Luke didn't find conflicting accounts a reason to flee from Paul, I don't see why any one else should. I'm sure that any one attempting to write my biography relying partially on stories I've told about myself it would be quite full of contradictions. I am not above embellishing my own stories so as to seem more wonderful than would appear to a non biased witness.

I've never been to Rome. Probably never will get to Rome; don't know anything about statues in Rome.

As for judgementalism, it's obvious I'm quite judgmental of war mongers. I also have problems with people harping on Paul as if he were alive today leading some group into war.

reply to post by pthena


Why would he flee? Jesus went to the sinners, those who needed help. Not to those who were righteous and with understanding etc. Seems luke would have done the same. Even those who were with Jesus were full of questions and so forth.

reply to post by badmedia

No man can be trusted. Not me, not you, not any man. And this is regardless of the persons intentions or whatever. No man can be trusted or should be accepted as authority.

Exactly, yet men wrote down the very words you quote. Do not under any circumstances accept Paul as having any more authority than any other man.

If you know Paul is not God, why are you writing about Paul as if he made some claim such as that? If you can't stand Paul, then don't read Paul. That seems a decent enough response.



[edit on 30-12-2009 by pthena]

Originally posted by pthena
Exactly, yet men wrote down the very words you quote. Do not under any circumstances accept Paul as having any more authority than any other man.

If you know Paul is not God, why are writing about Paul as if he made some claim such as that? If you can't stand Paul, then don't read Paul. That seems a decent enough response.

I quote them because I know they are true. I can tell you the exact same things without quoting them.

No, Paul does not under any circumstance have try authority over any other man. No man is authority over any other man, there is but 1 true authority and that is the father.

Disappointed that was all you responded to, and it's obvious you are just going to be defensive in terms of Paul, so have a nice day.

reply to post by Deny Arrogance

Christianity was co-opted by the Roman Empire in the third century.

The council of Nicaea dictated what would be in the bible, what would be left out and on which days Jesus was born and died.

So, yes Christianity = roman empire/Caesar.

If I were arguing for Christianity then wouldn't I be a Christian? I confess freely and openly that I am a Pagan. Even I recognize that there are people who are Christians who have not bent the knee to Caesar. It is to these people I appeal, not to be involved in pressuring the empire into war.

I think that Paul was a critic.
He had a vision and heard Jesus and may have been taken up in the spirit to some higher plane of existence to be taught. Well that was pretty special.
When Christianity took off, there were already people waiting in the wings to rush in and promote some messianic apocalypse, just like there is today.
Paul, having had this great experience and having been instructed in the mysteries of God, felt that he would be a good judge of others, whether they were really inspired by God, or just self inspired. Self motivated advantage seekers would be poison to the Jesus movement so Paul felt it as his duty to warn believers of false teachers.
For some reason, Paul had some sort of personal perseverance or intellect or something, that God used to pick him out of the crowd, to do his work. What he did was necessary for the times and there is value to his work, for us today.
Paul's emphasis concerning the atonement was on the gift, or Grace, and not necessarily just some sort of appeasement to a demanding God. We have salvation and from every angle you can imagine, as for its explanation, but it is there and it is a gift that you should take, no matter how you understand it. Now go out and be good people (I think he is saying).

reply to post by badmedia

But in trying to save yourself, you actually lose yourself. To try and save yourself in such a manner is the path that seems right, but isn't. It is actually the path of death and destruction, and the saving of self is only used to justify the actions.

Yes this is difficult to see and understand, but it is the truth. It is why Jesus did what he did in terms of his death - to show people that. Do not fear that which can kill the body, but that which can kill the soul.

As for Caesar and give unto Caesar. What is it that Caesar desired? Material things. In Proverbs 8, it says knowledge and wisdom are more valueable tha choice gold. Thus, it is nothing to give Caesar that which he desires(material of this world). So it is wise to give what Caesar wants and be on your way.

But that is a far step from doing something like joining an army for a crusade and so forth. And when it is more than tribute that Caesar wants, such as the crusades and such - then you best realize what your true authority is.

Jesus doesn't fight back because the only way to fight back in such a way was to kill and break a commandment and sin.

See, fear over saving the body is the #1 tactic of deception and means of getting people to walk the path of death and destruction. 9/11 is the most recent example of what people in mass will do if you make them fear for their lives. Whatever one may believe about the event itself, it is undeniable that the consequences of what a people who feared for their lives did in attempts to save themselves. Because they have committed sin to do so, they are actually losing themselves.

But when someone is born of the spirit and knows the father and knows that death is not real, then there is no reason for them to commit sin. There is no reason to try and "save your life". What are you afraid of? It's not death I fear by any stretch, but that part before it isn't as easy.

... There is no reason for them to fear those who really follow Jesus in terms of violence. However, that is not the reason they are persecuted. They are persecuted because they would lose their power if such people spread. Who is going to fight their wars and so forth?

Same reason Jesus was killed.

Same reason Peter was killed
Same reason Paul was killed
Same reason Saint Valentine was killed.

This is the story I heard:
Under Roman Law, newlyweds were exempt from military service. The emperor Claudius II was fighting on many fronts. He outlawed marriage so as to have many men available for war. Valentine was caught marrying couples and was killed for it. The wikipedia article has since been changed.

To bring this to the present: Those who know the Father, of Jesus and of us all, there is no fear of death. What comes before, such as peer pressure, wanting to fit in (which is a powerful motive), or even fear for family (which tops them all), would argue in favor of going along with 'the program'. These quite human desires are the very things being manipulated in order to gain compliance. In the end, we must be sure in whom we trust.

I've just recently started on this forum but I've read of groups organizing for civil war, cards handed out by various government entities to civil workers with broad martial law authority, in short, general preparation for violent domestic conflict. So how will we, you and me act and respond to what is planned for us by the government and anti-government forces?

There is no group I will take up arms for, none of them is worth killing for. Why is this? The same reason Jesus said 'If my kingdom were of this earth, my disciples would fight, but it is not.'

This is radically different from what is being taught anywhere. Do you dare being called un patriotic? You should be un afraid, for Jesus said we have one Father, and He's in heaven. If you will kill for something called 'fatherland' then who is your father?

Well first off, Jesus said "give unto Caesar what is due unto Caesar". But then he was like "pay me also."

But second, non-profit religious and educational organizations are exempt from paying taxes and non-profits have exploded into a mafia like, money laundering program.

You see, to expose corruption you have to follow the money.

But in this case you can not follow the money.

Bottom line for anybody who owns a non-profit religious orginization is money.

reply to post by 12.21.12

But second, non-profit religious and educational organizations are exempt from paying taxes and non-profits have exploded into a mafia like, money laundering program.

This whole 'tax exempt' is awfully suspicious to me, mixing and merging of money.

There was a major earthquake in Pakistan a few years ago, so I wanted to send some money to help people in need. The way to have donations tax-exempt is to give to American Red Cross as opposed to International Red Cross. The American Red Cross money actually goes through USAID, which is a State Dept. program. So I sent to International Red Cross through a bank in Scotland, and then I find out that bank is part of the international financial bale-out system. So there's no telling where the money ended up going.

Back in the 70s there was a 'missionary' group I was marginally associated with. Their 'mission was to translate the Bible into indigenous languages all through central and south America. Just recently they were kicked out of Venezuela because they were getting funding through US State Dept. obviously doing covert work for the US, which is, or used to be illegal. I doubt very seriously that Venezuela has a shortage of Bibles.

We live in interesting times.



[edit on 31-12-2009 by pthena]

reply to post by pthena


Well I don't think all of the money goes to the same place cause there are many different religions and churches, but there is a save the jews and bring them back to Israel fund in place for the tribulation happening now, so I would suspect that is where most of the money is going. But they are bankrupting the hell out of the USA thats for sure.

reply to post by 12.21.12
That's for sure. I guess I should read 1984 again. Seems to me, at the end of the book it says the real reason for war is to destroy resources. Money in our current society is a virtual resource.

Sorry, no money for decent health-care, the pentagon needs that. Sorry, no money for fixing bridges and creating jobs, we had to contract to a mercenary outfit. Sorry, no money left for anything, we needed a bigger espionage network.

We need all this because if we didn't have it, then 'the enemy' would kill us all. Fear! Fear! Fear!

Originally posted by pthena
I've just recently started on this forum but I've read of groups organizing for civil war, cards handed out by various government entities to civil workers with broad martial law authority, in short, general preparation for violent domestic conflict. So how will we, you and me act and respond to what is planned for us by the government and anti-government forces?

There is no group I will take up arms for, none of them is worth killing for. Why is this? The same reason Jesus said 'If my kingdom were of this earth, my disciples would fight, but it is not.'

This is radically different from what is being taught anywhere. Do you dare being called un patriotic? You should be un afraid, for Jesus said we have one Father, and He's in heaven. If you will kill for something called 'fatherland' then who is your father?

I don't care or worry about those things honestly. I'll just deal with whatever comes when it comes. I am former military myself, I've been homeless and been through many hard times. While I wouldn't look forward to such times and do my best to keep them from happening, I don't really fear it.

I also don't care what people call me. I know exactly how people will treat me, because it was the same way they treated me in regards to Iraq and so forth.

None of that stuff is new to me.

reply to post by badmedia

I don't care or worry about those things honestly. I'll just deal with whatever comes when it comes. I am former military myself, I've been homeless and been through many hard times. While I wouldn't look forward to such times and do my best to keep them from happening, I don't really fear it.

That's why I quoted you're post. It isn't for our own sakes we post, but for others. I'm a veteran who was in for 'national defense' and found myself in some body else's country committing acts of war against a country we were not at war with. Rather than dropping my tools and going into custody for failing to follow orders, as would have been moral, I followed orders then drank myself into unconsciousness.

I didn't stay in the military long after that. No one got killed, because the other side did not respond. So it was non-violence that saved lives rather than the violence I was engaged in.

We learn spiritual lessons from what we see and hear. If physical violence does not promote physical safety, why in any one's fevered imagination would physical violence promote anything resembling spiritual safety?

Utopian notions are a fraud. "If we kill these people and those people, then we will be better." That's nothing but human sacrifice. If there was any truth in that, we'd already be in paradise on earth, for look how many have been killed already. But no, it's a lie.

I don't care what religion anyone has, or what nationality, or anything else that divides people. Killing is not God's plan. This is for all those who don't get it. We already get it. The Father's kingdom has nothing to do with killing.

Peace