Creationist Conundrum: For Genesis to be true, God would have to be the Great Deceiver (Satan)!

Originally posted by metamagic
I no longer even bother with creationists. Or flat earthers. They do seem to be a uniquely American cultural phenomenon as a off shoot of this odd form of fundamentalism that is also part of the American culture. Better things to do with my time.

There is a definite separation of judgment and condemnation. Your comment is extremely disheartening and I hope that you will learn compassion. Without Charity, Order becomes Pride. Without Order, Charity becomes Chaos. You would do well to understand that this is the teaching of Christ and the Creation. Do not be deceived by the false teachers and their easily reduced doctrine which the OP has attacked without compassion as well. The false teachers of this world are weak despite their large empires and it does not take a lot of effort to bring them down to dividable ideas. Please understand that I mean nothing harsh towards you and I do not know how the beginning of our world was. What I do know is that OrderCharity has no beginning, but I and we do. I also know that OrderCharity has no end, but I do and We do not.

Genesis is a flat out lie for many reasons:
1) Noah couldn't find nor fit all the animal species onto the ark
2) All the animal species could not have gone home - like land-based animals living in Australia that were recently discovered or not discovered yet.
3) If the Bible can't even get the definition of "Day" right what the Hell are you putting any value in it for! (Genesis 1:1-1:10, material earth created day 1, planet Earth created day 3, night and day happened BEFORE Earth was made, yet in actuality night and day happen BECAUSE the earth turns! Fallacy.)
4) Dinosaurs
5) In "our" image.

It's a lie folks, give it up already and find that compassion and truth inside you - attribute it to compassion, interconnection, and spiritual connection - NOT some made up religion that states I am right and you are wrong, so let's go to war.


p.s. bringing "evolution" into this thread is a ruse. We are discussing the Bible NOT alternate ideas.

reply to post by Max_TO


This was a pleasant and reasonable post!

Oops, edit for second line... and to add while I'm at it... Thanks Max, you made this thread easier to traverse.

[edit on 12/24/2009 by Dasher]

Originally posted by Max_TO
My mistake I see by the title of the thread that you were directing this question to those of the " Creation theory " and at no where did you make this a evolution vs God thread my mistake was in judging as such , hence my mistake.

The title clearly is an attempt to demonize the Creator. While I appreciate your reasoning and attempt to be amicable, the OP is not in the same vein. Furthermore, if this was simply an issue of time measurement, your first post was thoughtful and clear enough to give reason to question the 6K year theory (and was one in which no one could give a truly knowledgeable answer to except that they had observed such occurrences) and thusly, the harshness of the rhetoric of the OP is easily seen.

Originally posted by passenger
In it, God tells the kids that they will die if they “eat of the fruit or touch it, lest you die” (paraphrase) Gen 3:3. The serpent tells them that’s a load of B.S. It turns out the snake is telling the truth; because Adam and Eve both obviously touch and eat the fruit and don’t die. Then, God gets scared (yeah, I said scared – read the whole chapter and the bits that follow) and curses them and kicks them out of Eden.

God establishes himself, very early on, in the Bible as someone not telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Makes you wonder about the rest…

Taking jabs at something that is philosophical/spiritual with basic reasoning skills may appear to make you a good "boxer," however, by nature, your argument is lacking consideration beyond your own view or ability to view and results in revealing that you are simply striking at the air. A more thorough dissection of analogy, rhetoric, eastern religion/philosophy, the westernization of the brown empires (not trying to be racist, I am brown by genetics), etc would go a long way towards making you an efficient and balanced fighter of truth. Please consider the weak to, at least, be capable of strength.

[edit on 12/24/2009 by Dasher]

reply to post by JaxonRoberts

the Earth only 6,000 years old
Earth that is over 4 BILLION years old
if the Bible is correct
then God is deceiving us

This thread is new, and original. I am stunned that nobody has ever thought about this before. At least, probably noone in the past couple minutes.

I predict that christians will be so shocked by your insight that they will immediately renounce christianity in droves. At least, for all non-negative integer values of "droves" that are less than one.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by JaxonRoberts

 

An investigation into the Bible that treats it as just another cycle of mythology would reveal that this "Satan" chap is in fact an agent of god, who's purpose is to test mankind's loyalty to that god. Similar to other collective "Police entrapment" gods in many other cultures.

The real creationist conundrum is simply that their claim makes no sense and has no corroborative evidence.

Hmm. While this would be true for certain sects of Christianity, it is not what the scriptures teach in general. If you were to understand the idea of nothing, nothing animated, and nothing manifested, it would help you see that the sects you are referring to are greatly mislead about the powers they fear.

Secondly, to your conundrum I will say; Prostate, THC and chemistry, mushrooms (as a better example of thc because of extreme kingdom separation) and chemistry, entheogens and philosophy in eastern and tribal religions, math and information related to random coding possibilities defying the second law of thermal dynamics (as in, elements don't become complex programs and inanimate objects do not become animate by chance EVER. It is not something that is even possible, let alone simply rare).

Lastly, I will say, while I am somewhat shielding young earthers from your broad attacks, I do not have a clue how the earth was made in terms of the rational and relational (prior to Adam) timeline.

[edit on 12/24/2009 by Dasher]

So, this post of mine may come off a little harsh, so in advance, My bad.

What sort of an idiot, or in this case, collective of idiots delve into a topic spewing ignorance and mis-information, with little regard to the facts offered within the Genesis Account.

Well, sorry you enlightened water boilers, but in this case, you are about to find you have been schooled, so to speak.

I will also, out of the goodness of everything that is part of debate, grant you that Christian's, in general, havn't a clue of what the Genesis Account offers, and due to this, they may well confirm some of your ill concieved notions, but I can assure you, these notions, will be presented according to what the Genesis Account indicates, and not what Pop Culture, and an Illiterate Church Structure wish you to believe.

Mr JaxonRoberts. Lets start with you.

And I quote, "By Biblical standards, the Earth (and the whole Universe itself) are only 6,000 years old (give or take a century or two)."

Where does this come from? What fabricated figment of your immagination arrived with such an assinine thought process to conclude the Bible states anything such as this?

Your date of 6000 Years, could be applied to Adam, but Adam, was created after the 7th day, when GOD saw there was none to till the earth, and with some effort, one can date back, through Biblical records and alternative sources to set the date of Adam to about 6000 Years ago.

But NO WHERE, does anything ever suggest on the 8th day, or the time of Adam, that the Universe was also created. That's just FN nutty Buddy.

And you noted, and I quote, "Meanwhile, the physical evidence says quite a different story. It points to a Universe that is over 13 BILLION years old, and Earth that is over 4 BILLION years old, and that mankind is over 100,000 years old... Quite a difference!

Meanwhile, the Bible also expresses quite clearly,

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Again, NO WHERE does this suggest, the Universe is 6000 Years Old. Nor does it indicate any of the "knowns" your skewed view offered, may be unrealistic. Science does infact prove the earth is about 4.5 Billion Years old. As for the Universe, how old? It really doesn't matter. Everything was Created in the Beginning. Was that 10 Billion years ago? It could well be.

And you noted, "then God is deceiving us... lying to us... leading us away from the Truth... Hmm."

Your funny man. What sort of illicit medical products are you utilizing? GOD's letter to you, was for us to learn from. Since I can safely suggest, you have no comprehension of the Original Languages, due to the brilliant remarks you have made so far, I would suggest an Indepth Study should be undertaken.

First, Here's a Bible for You. The Original King James 1611 no less.
www.jesus-is-lord.com...
Second, Here's Strongs Exhaustive Concordance, so when you have a word you need to know more about, you can actually translate it back to the Original Text, and see what that word truly implied.
www.eliyah.com...
Third, Here's one of the briefest and precise studies of the Genesis Account
that I have ever seen online. It is BIBLICAL in it's explainations and offering, or I wouldn't offer you it.
www.prepare-ye-the-way.com...

And we find this one little section that would generally apply to your opening "remarks", which are anything but "remark"-able

The first and second verses of Genesis, correctly interpreted from the Hebrew, answers a few questions but also raises others. KJV states: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, and the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. A more literal translation would be: In the beginning of God's creations of the heavens and the earth, and the earth became a waste and desolation ... In the KJV the sense of immediate occurrence between the creation and the being without form and void seems strong. But in actuality there could have been eons of time between Gen. 1: I and 1:2. Easily enough time for the prehistoric time of the earth. God never creates imperfection, only through sin and disobedience to God, comes a falling away from God and his blessings.

It goes on and expresses quite abit about FACTS within the BIBLE, apposed to the Comedic Releif you have presented.

Some of those facts?

In Jeremiah 4:23 he had a vision in the past tense and he said. "I beheld the earth and it became waste and desolate

same words as in Genesis) and the heavens and they had no light. I beheld the mountains and lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld and lo there was no man (literally Adam), and all the birds of heaven were fled. I beheld and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the "cities" thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord and by his fierce anger. Here Jeremiah sees a past tense earth becoming waste and desolate, the same as Genesis, darkness over everything, same as Genesis. There was no Adam, same as Genesis, Adam wasn't created yet. All the cities were broken down at the presence of the Lord. The term "cities" means: Meeting places of intelligent beings. Satan is intelligent and would have dwelling places, and God was very angry with him.

So we can see by accurately dividing Gods word that Gen. 1: I and 1:2 were the original creation with Satan's rebellion and fall becoming a waste and desolation. Then God re-created everything. The millions of years that this earth seemingly existed can fit easily in this part of Genesis.

And here is yet ANOTHER TRUTH, and FACT you have mistakenly overlooked, in your attempt to provoke an arguement.

Despite what the "Collective Church" wishes to express, or dictate, as one observant contributor noted, the Genesis Account is not a "CREATION MYTH".

We have addressed already, the only things "CREATED" within Genesis. "In the Begining", and "the Man to Till the Earth", Adam, (Eve excluded, since she is of Adam). The balance of the Text is revolving around the RECREATION STORY, from Day one to Day 7.

And to address a "Day", which was from the Hebrew word Yowm

3117 yowm yome from an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figurative (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverb):--age, + always, + chronicals, continually(-ance), daily, ((birth-), each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever(-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (... live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year(-ly), + younger.

As is clear, a DAY has many implications, and as expressed is often used as an adverb, to note an Age, like the Day of the Dinosaurs, or Age/Era of the Dinosaurs. Nothing is noted to suggest it was a 24 hour period of time that transpired between each day.

Anyways, I look forward to your forcoming pronoucements and relish the opportunity to assist in your re-education, along with any others who would wish to debate BIBLICAL FACTS apposed to the Doctrines, Dogmas, and Theologies of MAN or the ignorance Pop Culture. I know this will not seem fair for some, but you shouldn't be bringing out Knifes at a Gun Fight.

Ciao

Shane

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


This stuff just cracks me up.



Creationists versus Evolutionists.

Like it can only be the one or the other.

Get out of the damned boxes you have built around yourselves!

Originally posted by Thermo Klein
Attacking Christianity is like attacking a hidden cancer. In Western culture we live closest to Christianity so it's the most familiar bane to get rid of. Christian beliefs are from ONE book, the Bible. The Bible is inaccurate but people still grasp onto this ridculous straw of hope. get on with it - spirituality is within us but some men thousands of years ago figured they'd steal spirituality for profit - it's still pretty much the same today.

I gave up Christianity 20 years ago - BEST thing I ever did.

Christianity has become a cancer. I agree. It is obvious, though, because of it's likeness to what we understand is "Empire." This is most easily seen in the history of the RCC and the "boost" it received through it's reception by Constantine. It is called the Roman Catholic Church for a reason. However, the RCC has produced many wayward children (Protestants and their child sects, Evangelicals and their child sects, Mormons and their child sects, JWs and their child sects). As you can see, the church who claims to be united with Christ is not united at all and is easily seen as anti-christ since even Christ prayed that His brethren would be one as he is one with his father (thusly, those who are not one are not the brethren). What can you expect from something born from Empire? The scriptures are a story of Empire (anti-christ manifest on a large scale) and the Children of God. I assure you, the Children of God would only suffer persecution because they are Charitable and Orderly, not because they are Chaotic and Prideful. So, while I distance myself from the Christian church generally speaking, I do not distance myself from Christ or those who teach that word and understanding (and all things) are gifts from the Creators. Lastly, while the scriptures do contain errors, they are hardly reason to discard what they communicate. It is hard to understand and is manipulated by corrupt men, but that is all the more reason to understand it well and manifest it's truth openly. Pride and Chaos are in constant spirals of death and are manifested in this world in many forms. OrderCharity is life eternal and is manifested in many forms. Truth is easy to see and easy to hear, but difficult to understand.

I have read the Bible, as have many of my family members and friends, yet none of us have ever come away with this "The Earth is 6,000 years old" line which certain "Religion Bashers" keep spewing forth. I am a Christian, I believe in God, and I also hold faith in Creationism, yet, I also believe in Evolution. Where does that fit into your point-of-view?

Originally posted by Thermo Klein
Genesis is a flat out lie for many reasons:
1) Noah couldn't find nor fit all the animal species onto the ark
2) All the animal species could not have gone home - like land-based animals living in Australia that were recently discovered or not discovered yet.
3) If the Bible can't even get the definition of "Day" right what the Hell are you putting any value in it for! (Genesis 1:1-1:10, material earth created day 1, planet Earth created day 3, night and day happened BEFORE Earth was made, yet in actuality night and day happen BECAUSE the earth turns! Fallacy.)
4) Dinosaurs
5) In "our" image.

It's a lie folks, give it up already and find that compassion and truth inside you - attribute it to compassion, interconnection, and spiritual connection - NOT some made up religion that states I am right and you are wrong, so let's go to war.


p.s. bringing "evolution" into this thread is a ruse. We are discussing the Bible NOT alternate ideas.

1,2,3,4 - The scriptures are notoriously not always literal.
5 - Elohim is plural as well. So is Adonai. Christ calls men elohim. He also prays that his brethren would know that they are one as he is one with the father and that they would be one with him as he is one with the father. The idea of oneness is paramount and yet forgotten by false teachers. Otherwise, I really don't understand your listing of this point. The scriptures indicate that God is "The One true Lords." Go fig.

Threads like this are just so boring.

The only reason I respond is to say that the OP has no idea what he/she is talking about, has never tried to understand his/her simple questions or just /google to find out a bit of info.

It constantly amazes me that people ask such mundane questions knowing they are baiting people.

Do you really want the truth?

Also I know many Christians and not one thinks the earth is 6k years old.
The begining in John 1:1

In reply to the OP: your premise is faulty. The Bible does not state that the world was made 6000 years ago. That is a common misconception. Here is what the Bible says:

1. Genesis 1 shows the creation being created and/or made in six days that consist of an evening and a morning. Nothing has been formed as yet.

2. Genesis 2, verses 1 through 3 are the end of the create/made phase. Notice that the word "formed" is nowhere to be found in the previous verses. "Formed" would mean put into existence, as in made of matter.

3. Genesis 2, verse 4-5 summarize all before them. Notice the emphasis again on "created" and "made." These terms mean "designed" and "blueprinted" or "made in spirit" or "made in a timeless dimension to be later 'filled in' with matter."

4. Genesis 2:6 Shows how man had not yet been formed.

5. Genesis 2:7 Man is formed on a moist Earth. Nothing else exists on Earth.

6. Genesis 2:8 God plants a garden eastward in Eden. No garden existed previous to this moment. This garden was created in an aged form, in order to provide food for the man. The man was designed to till the ground. See Genesis 2:5 for the purpose of the man.

7. These events above take place in a "day," or unspecified period of time. This day is not noted as the days in Genesis 1, where the days are described as "and the evening and the morning were the first day."

8. In Gen 2, we see that the Lord God is at work, but in Gen 1 it is God. Lord God is different. In this part of the creation, Jesus is working with God to form man, the beasts, and growing a garden and growing a woman from a rib. The words here are "formed" for the man and the beasts, and "made" for the garden and the woman. The beasts are "formed" in front of Adam for him to name them, and so he can behold the creative power of the Lord God. Jesus is at work here partly because of His involvement later to redeem us from the fall of His creation.

(Also, just another common misconception. We are not made in the image of God. Adam was. Then Adam fell, or became fallen man, or a man who was made in a sinful flesh state. We are made in the image of Adam. See Gen 5:1. We die.)

My point: read the Bible and understand it before you jump on the bandwagon calling it a myth, fake, full of errors, etc.

Jesus said on the cross: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."



[edit on 12/24/2009 by Jim Scott]

Well, yet another needing common sense,

Originally posted by Thermo Klein
1) Noah couldn't find nor fit all the animal species onto the ark2) All the animal species could not have gone home - like land-based animals living in Australia that were recently discovered or not discovered yet.

We'll start with these two, since they are "Related"

What if GOD did? Noah didn't do anything but Build the Vessel, and prepare for the event. The Animals came two by two, and assembling all of these creatures in one spot is not something I can claim GOD can not do.

And despite what you may believe, let's consider this from an alternative view.

The Great Flood, or Noah's Flood, was to do onething. Eliminate the Spawn of the Fallen and the Daughters of Man.

Where was this occuring? GLOBALLY? It is not clear, this was planetary in scope.

So the event occurs where? Certainly where Noah once lived.
What effect did it have on Noah? Everything he once knew was gone under the flood waters. Even upto the Mountians, right.

What Mountians? Mt Ararat? Not the largest Mountian on the planet is it. Or is it the Escarpment within Iran that was the resting place of the Ark? Again, nothing very tall, in the grand scheme of things.

So, from the view of Noah, and how it applied to Moses, was the whole earth flooded, or everything that was part of Noah's Life flooded.

There is much evidence that can also be considered from "Other Peoples" that do infact suggest a Great Flood Occured, but these "Other Peoples" where still around to speak about it.

Also we are actually advised that in the account, some of the Spawn of the fallen where still to be around.

Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

So Everything in Noah's World was destroyed. That's clear, but where was Noah's world? My views say he lived in the Med Basin, but that's just my guess.

Would this mean, the Mississipi Delta also crested and flooded out the North American Plains and Great Lakes Regions? There may have been some effects, but I can't imagine it being that difficult.

But again, the Flood was created with a specific purpose and it did accomplish it's intended goal, in the general sense, so wouldn't it be fair to expect it may actually have been specific in area?

3) If the Bible can't even get the definition of "Day" right....

And as noted previously, it may just be the case that the translators didn't get the definition of a day correct. They where of course, a MASON'S Translator. (Jolly King James was a Mason, don't you know.)

4) Dinosaurs

See the previous response to your dim witted collegue. I gave him a good short bible study. It answers these questions.

5) In "our" image.

And heres, a good question. WTF does this imply?

I have some questions for you first.

Are we all the same, or are we different from eachother?
Are we unique from eachother, or are we a copy of each other?
Is not our Prints, and DNA for that matter, different from eachother?
Are our Ethic Backgrounds the same or different?

Answer these, and I'll answer this last one for you.

It's a lie folks.........

And I see you have no preconcieved bagged tagging along

Ciao

Shane

One of the problems with critics is that they think of God as a man. God is not a man. Nothing is impossible with God.

If God wants to put young animals in the Ark, or cause them to sleep much of the journey, He can. It's an easy fit, and it has been proven over and over.

The Earth may have been much flatter before the flood. The atmosphere may have been quite different, also. Evidence shows that the atmosphere was considerably richer in oxygen, based on extracts of bubbles in amber. Also, large dinosaurs had small lungs, which would have required an atmosphere rich in oxygen for them to survive. Some postulate that a large comet dumped ice on the poles, and that caused the Earth to crack like the seams of a baseball, releasing water and causing continental drift. I don't know. There is another thread on ATS that shows how the Earth, the Moon, and some other planets are expanding. Very interesting stuff. I wonder.

And, since God can do whatever He wants, wouldn't it be funny if He was just messing with your mind? Maybe He made everything look aged, just to fake you out.

[edit on 12/24/2009 by Jim Scott]

the physical evidence says quite a different story. It points to a Universe that is over 13 BILLION years old, and Earth that is over 4 BILLION years old, and that mankind is over 100,000 years old... Quite a difference!

I can only lmao at these big brains using these big numbers.
13 billion yrs? your brain isn't that big that you can even contemplate
13 billion yrs. I know that with common sense. If it sounds stupid it usually
is.
Where do these people come from that think they no better than God.
Believe this to try and claim there is no God only makes a person look
completely ignorant.
There is no leaning in a little bit and saying," I do believe in a supreme
being just not the one in the bible". What kind of a supreme being would
not be able to get his message across to us? If there is one there should be a message from him.

Now if the Bible is correct and all of the physical evidence (let's just leave the origin of life and the diversity of species out of this one, shall we?)

At who's convenience?

[edit on 24-12-2009 by randyvs]

Originally posted by Jim Scott
4. Genesis 2:6 Shows how man had not yet been formed.

8. In Gen 2, we see that the Lord God is at work, but in Gen 1 it is God. Lord God is different. In this part of the creation, Jesus is working with God to form man, the beasts, and growing a garden and growing a woman from a rib. The words here are "formed" for the man and the beasts, and "made" for the garden and the woman. The beasts are "formed" in front of Adam for him to name them, and so he can behold the creative power of the Lord God. Jesus is at work here partly because of His involvement later to redeem us from the fall of His creation.

(Also, just another common misconception. We are not made in the image of God. Adam was. Then Adam fell, or became fallen man, or a man who was made in a sinful flesh state. We are made in the image of Adam. See Gen 5:1. We die.)

I am not picking on you Jim, but curious how you noted the above.

Who are these peoples?

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all
the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the
earth.
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God
created he him; male and female created he them.
1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful,
and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have
dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the
air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

They have NOTHING to do with Adam. They have no instructions specifcally like Adam. They are to do What?

I believe, you maybe missing some of the Peoples on this planet my friend. Many peoples, like those in the land of Nod, that Cain eventually inmingled with. Like the Aborigines of Austrialia, which predate Adam by some 7000 or more years.

Just wishing to clear this up.

As for Adam, the Tiller, I agree with you, but wondered about this.

Again, on the 6th Day, we see animal life recreated and man given dominion over these in the manner of Hunter / Gather along with the instructions to have good stewartship over the earth and the creatures, and be fruitful and replenish the earth.

Since Animals are CLEARLY already created, would you agree, that it was the DOMESTIC spieces that Adam named in chapter 2?

Just wondering, since a Chicken, is a Chicken in most languages. As are Cows, Donkeys, and so on.

Ciao

Shane

Where did you get the 6000 years? show me where that is in the bible. hmmm....not there? you're attacking christianity on the basis of what you assume it to be, not what it actually is, or even what the bible says.


I'm a christian, and i believe in the big bang, though i don't think you have thought about the ramifications of the theory, steven hawking mathmatically proved that at the exact "moment" of the big bang, there had to be something outside spacetime, infintesimally close to the origin of the big bang, a perfect cone shape if you will, one that doesn't have a rounded tip as all cones inside the spacetime must. I'll try to find and post the equation steven hawking used.

What keeps me wondering is...

If there is this so-called entity called 'Satan/Lucifer'. Wouldnt the best move ever be to change this 'holy book' into something completely else? I really can not believe that the bible is 100% truth. I really can not believe that satan/lucifer,demons or whatever would have left the bible with all the truth in it...

Wouldnt u change and mess up the 'holy book'(as they call it) to deceive everybody IF u was 'satan' or whatever.... just speculating though.

I'm not saying satan or whatever did in fact change the whole bible.

On the other hand.

People back then in those 'biblical ages' saw everything supernatural as God or angelic... even nowadays people claim something was god but is actually was not god. Because they don't know better then what they are told.

Just my view on that though, i am not claiming to be right on all this.

I personally find it hard to believe this book called the 'bible'.

peace!

[edit on 24-12-2009 by MisterP]

[edit on 24-12-2009 by MisterP]