War has been declared! Against the American People

Originally posted by endisnighe


Just wanted to save this quote for posterity.

We do not live in a Democracy. It is called a representative republic.

ONE OF THE VERY ASPECTS OF THIS REPUBLIC is the VERY right of the RULED to disagree with their elected.

SO SHUT THE FRACK UP about me disagreeing with my government. Or are you one of the idiots that agreed with the Bush Doctrine of pre-emptive war?

It is hilarious how the unintelligible still back the same doctrine of the Bush years.

Sorry, I have a little more knowledge than the idiocracy.

edit to change-meant to say posterity, typed prosperity duuuuhhhh!

[edit on 12/24/2009 by endisnighe]

You beat me to the punch!

Way to go! I wondered for years (not anymore mind you) why they kept saying this BS about "democracy". If you'll notice, most "democracy's" are in socialist/communist areas (Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK), the former German Democratic Republic (GDR), democratic republic of congo, ect.) Lovely places to visit.

Lets go to Thomas Jefferson on Democracy:

“A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.”

(see our new health care bill for example)

“The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.”

(roosevelt/LBJ welfare state anyone?)

Now, for the virtures of the Republic. Look at this page. it sums it up beautifully.
www.1215.org...

sand f brother patriot!

reply to post by WTFover

When I telephoned one of my Senators, it took a week of attempts to get through. Then, the receptionist/staffer/aide (whoever it was) didn't appear to have time to listen to the concerns of a constituent. Did not take my contact information and was totally disinterested. What is the solution when they ignore us and do what they consider is in our best interest? Example: Obama made this statement, recently, regarding high end health insurance policies "Cadillac plans ... don't make people healthier, but just take more money out of their pockets,". Who is he to say you can't purchase such a plan, if you can afford it or convince your employer to buy it for you?

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

In my opinion, very powerful words, which are just as relevant today as they were in 1776.

I just love how people throw this around like it's supposed to be the answer.

So for many the solution is complete Anarchy. Course, the Visigoths thought this was a good idea too. (boy the dark ages were super keen weren't they?) If would be Anarchists think this is a good idea, they obviously slept their way through history class.

Others think that the solution is to start over. Thinking that setting up a government is like a video game and all they have to do is hit the freaking reset button.

The truth is, our Republic is a machine, sometimes that machine grows too big and it's peripherals have to be taken off. You repair the machine, you don't throw it away for a new one. Yes this machine has seen better days. But machines can be repaired. This machine itself can be repaired. It is our duty as the people of this country to fix it.

reply to post by felonius


Yes, some people do not realize what has gone on in the US for the past 80 years, has been unlawful, unconstitutional and illegal.

The representatives have every right to pass legislation.

That DOES NOT conflict with the Constitution.

That is OUR protection from the masses of idiots that are so inherent in our Nanny state of today.

I am not even working right now, not actually poor but I will not and would not expect my fellow man to be taxed and his/her rights to be infringed for the sake of "supposed" security.

Knowledge is power, some just do not understand.

Thanks for your reply.

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by WTFover

 

When I telephoned one of my Senators, it took a week of attempts to get through. Then, the receptionist/staffer/aide (whoever it was) didn't appear to have time to listen to the concerns of a constituent. Did not take my contact information and was totally disinterested. What is the solution when they ignore us and do what they consider is in our best interest? Example: Obama made this statement, recently, regarding high end health insurance policies "Cadillac plans ... don't make people healthier, but just take more money out of their pockets,". Who is he to say you can't purchase such a plan, if you can afford it or convince your employer to buy it for you?

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

In my opinion, very powerful words, which are just as relevant today as they were in 1776.

I just love how people throw this around like it's supposed to be the answer.

So for many the solution is complete Anarchy. Course, the Visigoths thought this was a good idea too. (boy the dark ages were super keen weren't they?) If would be Anarchists think this is a good idea, they obviously slept their way through history class.

Others think that the solution is to start over. Thinking that setting up a government is like a video game and all they have to do is hit the freaking reset button.

The truth is, our Republic is a machine, sometimes that machine grows too big and it's peripherals have to be taken off. You repair the machine, you don't throw it away for a new one. Yes this machine has seen better days. But machines can be repaired. This machine itself can be repaired. It is our duty as the people of this country to fix it.

I love how you keep attempting to frame lawful revolution as anarchy. Try as you may, no matter how much you keep insisting that dissolving the bands with one government in order to establish another is anarchy, it is not. I think you know this, however, and are being artful in your language, but at least you stop short of referring to such as actions as terrorism. To compare the Founders of the United States to the Visgoths reveals either a profound ignorance of history or a willing misrepresentaton of it. While the Visgoths are from an era known as the "Dark Ages", the Founders are from an era known as "The Age of Enlightenment". Big difference between ages, but you all ready knew that, didn't you?

That said, I do agree with you, and profoundly so, that we the people should not just rise up and revolt and start over on a whim nor even on the very real understanding that our federal system of government is broken. It is broken, and as you have wisely put it, can be fixed. However, as long as there are people like you continually insisting that people do not have natural rights, i.e. rights that pre-exist government, as long as you keep insisting that we can only fix the government through an election process, surrendering our right to govern ourselves to representatives, then the system will not be fixed.

We must do more than put a bandaid on the festering sore, or tighten a lug nut here and resplace a u-joint there, a complete overhaul is required and as long as we have disagreements about that overhaul and how to go about fixing the system, it just won't get fixed. How can you and I together find agreement so that we might convince the others that the system can be fixed through peaceful and less tragic means? What solutions other than voting can you offer?

Republicans keep saying the American citizens have spoken loud and clear. According to Republicans, the majority of Americans agree with THEM. Wow! I didn't know the Tea Party Republicans represented us all. This doesn't make much sense though, because, you see, Obama got elected, and Democrats control the House and Senate. The majority obviously approves of what the government is doing. Hope and change we can believe in. What did Obama promise to do? End the wars. Healthcare reform. Close Gitmo. Is he not in the process of doing these things? Let's see, he's got an exit strategy for Afghanistan. He's slowly moving Gitmo prisoners to different prisons around the world. The health care bill has been approved by the House and the Senate. So what we have here is a president who actually follows through with his promises. I don't care what opinion polls have to say about anything. Those are all just for entertainment anyway. It's easy to manipulate statistics to say anything you want. Why don't these Tea Party Republicans stop getting in the way of progress? Why don't they just sit down, shut up, and accept their role as the minority? Democrats are in control, and they represent the will of the majority. This is what Americans asked for. This is what Americans want. Get over it. Don't worry about war being declared against America by the government. There's no support for that. Powerless Republicans are just dreaming. They don't want to play by the rules in what resembles some kind of Democracy. They stole at least one of the last two presidential elections with that idiot Bush. Now they're trying to impose their will on the majority. If they hate this system so much, they are free to move to another country.

[edit on 24-12-2009 by ivorywire]

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Unfortunately for some here I believe they would rather see the world burn than actually attempt to fix a government they don't agree with. To these people, Anarchy is what they want, especially if it involves innocent blood filling the streets.

I love how you keep attempting to frame lawful revolution as anarchy. Try as you may, no matter how much you keep insisting that dissolving the bands with one government in order to establish another is anarchy, it is not. I think you know this, however, and are being artful in your language, but at least you stop short of referring to such as actions as terrorism.

There is no such thing as lawful revolution, what exists is, revolution, or high treason. The difference is whether you win or loose.

While terrorism itself is not revolutionary in nature, the only point in terrorism is to incite terror. This differentiates from the Anarchist who just wants to destroy the government and not replace it with another one. The concept of self rule and to hell with anyone or anything that stands in that way. Anarchy is selfish in nature and the Anarchist only wants freedom for themselves.

The revolutionary however differs from the above because the revolutionary has a goal in mind and fights towards that end.

To compare the Founders of the United States to the Visgoths reveals either a profound ignorance of history or a willing misrepresentaton of it. While the Visgoths are from an era known as the "Dark Ages", the Founders are from an era known as "The Age of Enlightenment". Big difference between ages, but you all ready knew that, didn't you?

AH but they aren't so dissimilar are they? The Visigoths overthrew a tyrannical empire, they were oppressed people. The only difference is the establishment of the government. The Visigoths sought to instill their rule over Europe, much the same as the Romans. While the Founding Fathers wanted a new representative form of government.

That said, I do agree with you, and profoundly so, that we the people should not just rise up and revolt and start over on a whim nor even on the very real understanding that our federal system of government is broken. It is broken, and as you have wisely put it, can be fixed. However, as long as there are people like you continually insisting that people do not have natural rights, i.e. rights that pre-exist government, as long as you keep insisting that we can only fix the government through an election process, surrendering our right to govern ourselves to representatives, then the system will not be fixed.

I believe it's those "God Given" rights that confuse a lot of people. The only god given rights are, Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, I am afraid that is all the "God Given" rights a person has, everything else was given by the government and can be taken back just as easily.

We must do more than put a bandaid on the festering sore, or tighten a lug nut here and resplace a u-joint there, a complete overhaul is required and as long as we have disagreements about that overhaul and how to go about fixing the system, it just won't get fixed. How can you and I together find agreement so that we might convince the others that the system can be fixed through peaceful and less tragic means? What solutions other than voting can you offer?

Besides voting for people that would actually fix the system? A national referendum where 2/3 of the States declare supreme authority over the federal government. Eradication of all existing Federal laws that aren't supported by at least 2/3 of the states?

reply to post by Polynomial C



It ceased to be a democracy in 2000! BHO is a different face of the same coin and that's a fact! Perhaps he is your president, but to me he is the leader of the occupation! No different than GWB!

reply to post by ivorywire


And another new member just comes in to attack.

SOP. huh.

The Dems are in power now so any and all legislation can be done, huh.

Glad you came in to pass the buck onto the Repubs.

Without people like you where would this country be?

Oh, probably pretty well off.

This is not one of your bash Dems or Repubs threads.

UnConstitutional law is unConstitutional.

Get it. I will not pay these extra taxes. I am already off the grid and will stay there. And millions will join me.

And if they come to try to collect this tax or try to throw me in jail, they will find the last vestige of our rights. The right to bear arms against aggressors.

Unbelievable!


[edit on 12/24/2009 by endisnighe]

reply to post by endisnighe

Get it. I will not pay these extra taxes. I am already off the grid and will stay there. And millions will join me.

And if they come to try to collect this tax or try to throw me in jail, they will find the last vestige of our rights. The right to bear arms against aggressors.

Ok, go ahead. Please, just go ahead, live off the grid. PLEASE. See, living off the grid also means the POWER grid, and the Internet. So....

Can you hurry up please?

Originally posted by whaaa

Originally posted by Silver ShadowThat applies to Joe six pack with his 9mm Glock, bombed out of his brain on booze.

If you impeached the President, and made boozy Joe six pack the President in his place, NOTHING WOULD CHANGE.

Hey mate, one thing would change. We would keep all the crybaby aussies in Australia. Except for AC/DC.

dude just shut up

reply to post by whatukno


What the hell is it with you?

Have I infected your little world with common sense?

Calling me an anarchist through this entire thread.

If you do not like my attitude or comments than Frack off. Or freedom of speech is the next thing people like you will go after. First one on ATS for me to put on ignore.

Look up fallacies on Wikipedia. It goes far to show exactly your techniques of argument. At least from now on, I will not have to see your idiocy.


And Merry Christmas, he was able to turn the other cheek, I cannot.


[edit on 12/25/2009 by endisnighe]

So the devil's advocate in me is dying to ask.

When non-violent means to fix a broken government have shown to be futile when does the allowance of violent means via lawful revolution proceed?

I am not advocating the later, but it is a question that no one is willing to actually contemplate and really ask themselves. (generally of course)

reply to post by ownbestenemy

So the devil's advocate in me is dying to ask.

When non-violent means to fix a broken government have shown to be futile when does the allowance of violent means via lawful revolution proceed?

I am not advocating the later, but it is a question that no one is willing to actually contemplate and really ask themselves. (generally of course)

The problem is, this government is no where near what would be considered tyrannical by historical standards.

I think that a whole group of people are out there DESPERATE to start a revolution without fully knowing (or in some circumstances, caring) about the consequences of their actions.

Some people feel that their voices aren't heard in our government (IE the government isn't giving into mass hysteria) and so they feel they aren't represented and so want to violently overthrow the government.

reply to post by endisnighe

Hey, what happened to the dialogue? I am on ATS to challenge my self and others alike.
If it wasn't for people like you I wouldn't get much satisfaction out of ATS...

Do you not see a threat to freedom via direct policy implemented by the most capital?
I think letting people who are good at making money control society is a danger.

IMO freedom does not mean that money entities can dictate the parameters of everyones existence. In my eyes government is the counter balance to this, if either
gain to much credence it becomes a problem.

Dump government and you will see a system put into place that will funnel more and more money, to fewer and fewer sources.

My previous example of lead was an important way for me to illustrate my fears. At a certain point industry KNEW lead was extremely toxic, at one point lead poisoning and many lead induced infliction created a great deal of health problems. There were no other options, lead or more lead was the choice... Industry battled to hide this great poisoning and fought very hard to retain the right to spread this neurotoxin throughout the modern world. Cheap, dense, flexible, durable - but unfortunately not good to coat environments with. This example illustrates a positive role of government, without such an entity (FED), what would have facilitated the change?

This issue is still being legislated, but government did play a role in facilitating options that went of to benefit the public and private sector alike (new products).

The regulation is not so good in Mexico land, check this out, we are talking children here... Soak it in, product = profit = freedom

www.idph.state.ia.us...

this is one example of why we need a FED - same story different parameters abound

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by ownbestenemy

 

So the devil's advocate in me is dying to ask.

When non-violent means to fix a broken government have shown to be futile when does the allowance of violent means via lawful revolution proceed?

I am not advocating the later, but it is a question that no one is willing to actually contemplate and really ask themselves. (generally of course)

The problem is, this government is no where near what would be considered tyrannical by historical standards.

I think that a whole group of people are out there DESPERATE to start a revolution without fully knowing (or in some circumstances, caring) about the consequences of their actions.

Some people feel that their voices aren't heard in our government (IE the government isn't giving into mass hysteria) and so they feel they aren't represented and so want to violently overthrow the government.

Wow. Your understanding of history is either profoundly influenced by indoctrination or you just don't really understand it. King George, nor any of the governments in the colonies required people to have licenses for their horse and buggies and no one had to worry about oppressive parking tickets for parking their horse and buggies where they needed to. King George did not put forth any effort, let alone tremendous effort to disarm the colonists. King George did not tell his subjects what they could and could not eat or drink, let alone smoke. King George did not deign to regulate and control health care.

Farmers of the colonies did not have to deal with a regulatory agency such as The Department of Agriculture. Cobblers, blacksmiths, book sellers, merchants, did not have to obtain a license just to do business. There was no tax on income at all and yet, you have the audacity to claim that our government is not nearly as tyrannical as the government our Founders overthrew. Please.

As to your earlier remarks, you claim there is no such thing as lawful revolution and then contrast it to high treason. Treason is a crime and is unlawful, contrasting revolution to it, would make revolution necessarily lawful. As to your assertion that the only natural rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, that encompasses quite a bit, and certainly encompasses the first ten Amendments of the Bill of Rights.

I do tend to agree with you that the states need to reassert their sovereignty and break free of the shackles of our current federal government but with a caveat. That being that the people need to reassert their own soveriegnty as well and return back to the principles of self government and need neither a federal nor state government to operate as a nanny state.

You keep attempting to assert that there is a recklessness to those who advocate revolution, but revolution in its simplest terms is change. It is most definitely time for a change and whether that revolution be a velvet one or worse, it is time to retake our freedoms and insist the governments back off. I suspect you don't disagree with that so much as you worry about needless violence. I am with you on that and urge you to reconsider your nonsensical notions of a benign federal and even state governments in the U.S. Their blatant acts of usurpation has become increasingly clear, and please stop trying to frame this as Republicans sour because Democrats are in power. A good reason the Republicans have lost political capital is because they are no different than Democrats and both have usurped the government. Conservatives have abandoned the Republican party in droves and will continue to do so as long as the Republicans continue to favor and expanded role of government over freedom.

As for me, I have not been a Republican for two decades now and even the vaunted Ronald Regan, in my book, was just another politician who did more to expand the role of government, even if his words suggested otherwise.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Wow. Your understanding of history is either profoundly influenced by indoctrination or you just don't really understand it. King George, nor any of the governments in the colonies required people to have licenses for their horse and buggies and no one had to worry about oppressive parking tickets for parking their horse and buggies where they needed to. King George did not put forth any effort, let alone tremendous effort to disarm the colonists. King George did not tell his subjects what they could and could not eat or drink, let alone smoke. King George did not deign to regulate and control health care.

Farmers of the colonies did not have to deal with a regulatory agency such as The Department of Agriculture. Cobblers, blacksmiths, book sellers, merchants, did not have to obtain a license just to do business. There was no tax on income at all and yet, you have the audacity to claim that our government is not nearly as tyrannical as the government our Founders overthrew. Please.

When they start hanging citizens for writing blogs that are critical of the government, then I will believe you're right. Otherwise, it's hype.

As to your earlier remarks, you claim there is no such thing as lawful revolution and then contrast it to high treason. Treason is a crime and is unlawful, contrasting revolution to it, would make revolution necessarily lawful. As to your assertion that the only natural rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, that encompasses quite a bit, and certainly encompasses the first ten Amendments of the Bill of Rights.

There is no such thing as a lawful revolution, If you win, you certainly can make the case you did right. But if you loose, you get hung for high treason.

I do tend to agree with you that the states need to reassert their sovereignty and break free of the shackles of our current federal government but with a caveat. That being that the people need to reassert their own soveriegnty as well and return back to the principles of self government and need neither a federal nor state government to operate as a nanny state.

Well, that just goes to the 10th Amendment and the idea that the several states were to decide what laws they would pass for their citizens by their citizens. So instead of a central federal government you would have a group of 50 individual governments trying to decide what is best for the nation.

You keep attempting to assert that there is a recklessness to those who advocate revolution, but revolution in its simplest terms is change. It is most definitely time for a change and whether that revolution be a velvet one or worse, it is time to retake our freedoms and insist the governments back off. I suspect you don't disagree with that so much as you worry about needless violence. I am with you on that and urge you to reconsider your nonsensical notions of a benign federal and even state governments in the U.S. Their blatant acts of usurpation has become increasingly clear, and please stop trying to frame this as Republicans sour because Democrats are in power. A good reason the Republicans have lost political capital is because they are no different than Democrats and both have usurped the government. Conservatives have abandoned the Republican party in droves and will continue to do so as long as the Republicans continue to favor and expanded role of government over freedom.

The founding fathers set up this government. Many people lost their lives in pursuit of the ideals of freedom. I don't think we would be doing our Founding Fathers any service or reverence by throwing away their blood sweat and tears because this government which we the people run isn't being run to the satisfaction of a few.

Especially when those few think to take it upon themselves to usurp the very Constitution that has stood the test of time for over 200 years. Are willing to do so without the slightest idea as to what it means to truly be oppressed.

If you want to know what it's like to be truly oppressed in this country, might I suggest a divorce. Now that's oppression. Not only do you have your natural rights stripped from you, you have other rights stripped from you, not to mention half of your pay taken from you as well. So please, do spare me the angst of the oppressed and overtaxed speech, cause my friend, you have no idea what oppressed truly means.

What is also fun about all this sedition talk, is that I really doubt most of you realize what would exactly happen if for some god knows reason a revolution did start. It wouldn't be a revolution at all, but a civil war.

Anyone remember the last civil war in this country? I wouldn't call that a rousing good time. Sure a lot of good came from that war, but a lot of good Americans died during it as well.

Hey, Einstein is that you?!

The United States of America is not a democracy. It never was.

"Polynomial C" is your name. I take it you enjoy working mathematical problems. Do you jam any old value to an equation or statement? Do you add your own "fudge factors" to achieve balance? Do you create your own axioms, postulates and theories? Do you meticulously research every act?

Why not try the same thing when you attempt government? Learn the concepts. Understand the principles. Read an important book or two on political history or theory of government. Do some practice problems before you try to apply your student learning to real life.

Right now, you remind me of the class clown, shouting out absurd answers to make everyone laugh at them -- instead of his academic failures.

Cheers,

JOE OF THE MOUNTAIN

Originally posted by Polynomial C
The American People have spoken .. OBAMA WON THE ELECTION ..

He is your president ..


The American People have elected all officials in congress, the house, etc ..


I know you don't like Obama , but i have some bad news for you .. YOU LIVE IN A FREAKING DEMOCRACY !!!

Seriously guy .. what is your deal .. you don't like democracy ?

Jean Paul,

Greetings from a son of Huguenots and Patriots.

I have a theory, "Joe of the Mountain's Peasant Theory of Everything".

More or less, it postulates a "Liberty Gene", which is recessive and you either carry or not.

Your kibbitzers here lack the Liberty Gene. They are peasants, bred to be serfs, and moreover love their servility. No amount of talk can change this. No end of patient teaching can enlighten their minds, for they are bred to obey and server others, in the humility and degradation of their proletarian ancestors.

We that see the return of would-be "royal masters" and who will never bow or scrape before men, must turn to our own survival. We must leave the fools and camp followers to preserve our civilization for future generations.

Let them have their sick world of oafish desires and crude pleasures. Cast not thy pearls before swine. The Lilliputians are cunning and selfish - no good can come from their association.

Joe of the Mountain
Son of the American Revolution


reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux




[edit on 25-12-2009 by joeofthemountain]

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by WTFover

 

I just love how people throw this around like it's supposed to be the answer.

To which part of the quote were you referring?

The truth is, our Republic is a machine, sometimes that machine grows too big and it's peripherals have to be taken off. You repair the machine, you don't throw it away for a new one. Yes this machine has seen better days. But machines can be repaired. This machine itself can be repaired. It is our duty as the people of this country to fix it.

Obviously, this is where we agree. Now, once a common goal is found, serious and constructive debate can begin.

The "machine" (government of, by and for the People to quote Lincoln) requires maintenance. In order to provide for that maintenance, the People appoint 'mechanics'. But, most do not determine if the 'mechanic' is actually qualified to perform the needed maintenance, though he may talk a good talk. What is the solution, when so many choose their 'mechanic' based on looks and sound bytes, rather than historical actions? You end up with what we now have.

Repair is what we now need, because, for many years, no maintenance has been performed. Our career politicians have learned how to "add peripherals" to appease the masses, with the sole motive of achieving re-election. If anyone doubts this, take a look here: US National Debt Clock

If We the People don't make a stand ourselves, who will? Our current career politicians? They (collectively) have shown they have no expertise in maintaining the "machine", much less making any major repairs.

So, do we just accept that we are at an impasse, in determining a solution? Or, is now the time for action? I know you will, again, bring up the word "anarchy", but you have been the only one using that word, in that context.