Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by Xtraeme

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Awesome video!

I agree with everything he was saying because he says he's a scientist and he is talking about sciencey stuff and sounds smart with his accent!

No, but seriously, thanks. That did lighten the mood a bit, I got a kick out of that one. lol

Without light there exists only three shapes: square, triangle and circle. So imagine there's no light. Imagine we have no sun. That would mean we're all shape men of sorts. We're all triangles, circles, and squares!

Force carriers are virtual particles, which means they don't even exist. And when they exist, we can only measure their effects, i.e their energy and momentum.

There is not a definite line differentiating virtual particles from real particles — the equations of physics just describe particles (which includes both equally). The amplitude that a virtual particle exists interferes with the amplitude for its non-existence; whereas for a real particle the cases of existence and non-existence cease to be coherent with each other and do not interfere any more. In the quantum field theory view, "real particles" are viewed as being detectable excitations of underlying quantum fields. As such, virtual particles are also excitations of the underlying fields, but are detectable only as forces but not particles.

The term particle is pretty misleading in that it implies something solid, when it can be broken down as some energy exerting a force.

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by np6888

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"Can you show me one form of energy that is not a function or property of matter and please cite sources for me to review."

... in a technical sense, you cannot just create matter out of energy: there are various 'conservation laws' of electric charges, the number of leptons (electron-like particles) etc., which means that you can only create matter / anti-matter pairs out of energy. Anti-matter, however, has the unfortunate tendency to combine with matter and turn itself back into energy. Even though physicists have managed to safely trap a small amount of anti-matter using magnetic fields, this is not easy to do.(1)

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
reply to post by constantwonder

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Yes it does. Are you familiar with the founder of Quantum Mechanics, Schrodinger? He resolved the Schrodinger's cat problem by introducing consciousness.

Ahem, perhaps you should look at this video to look at what a quantum physicist is saying: www.youtube.com...



[edit on 23-12-2009 by Indigo_Child]

"The public understanding of modern physics is seriously out of whack, thanks largely to pop junk like The Secret and What the BLEEP Do We Know? [that] promote a bogus version of quantum mechanics—the belief that 'you create your own reality' by controlling the laws of physics with your mind…," said Geoff Gilpin, author of The Maharishi Effect: A Personal Journey Through the Movement That Transformed American Spirituality. "The world has needed a book like this for a long time. If you care about scientific literacy, Quantum Gods is not optional."


Throughout the book Stenger alternates his discussions of popular spirituality with a survey of what the findings of twentieth-century physics actually mean. Thus he offers the reader a useful synopsis of contemporary religious ideas as well as basic but sophisticated physics presented in layperson's terms.

New Scientist says, "In this much-needed book, physicist Victor Stenger isolates and then debunks the claims of two kinds of "quantum belief"… With Stenger in charge…we are on sure ground. He adds even more value by weaving a thorough beginner's course in quantum physics into his debunking exercise… Even though he skips rather dizzyingly between traditional religious beliefs, quantum spirituality and quantum physics itself, Stenger is a pleasure to read. And, pleasingly, the title Quantum Gods: Creation, Chaos And The Search For Cosmic Consciousness sounds just crackpot enough to attract those readers who will benefit most."

Quantum mechanics, the centerpiece of modern physics, is misinterpreted as implying that the human mind controls reality and that the universe is one connected whole that cannot be understood by the usual reduction to parts.

However, no compelling argument or evidence requires that quantum mechanics plays a central role in human consciousness or provides instantaneous, holistic connections across the universe. Modern physics, including quantum mechanics, remains completely materialistic and reductionistic while being consistent with all scientific observations.

The apparent holistic, nonlocal behavior of quantum phenomena, as exemplified by a particle’s appearing to be in two places at once, can be understood without discarding the commonsense notion of particles following definite paths in space and time or requiring that signals travel faster than the speed of light.

No superluminal motion or signalling has ever been observed, in agreement with the limit set by the theory of relativity. Furthermore, interpretations of quantum effects need not so uproot classical physics, or common sense, as to render them inoperable on all scales-especially the macroscopic scale on which humans function. Newtonian physics, which successfully describes virtually all macroscopic phenomena, follows smoothly as the many-particle limit of quantum mechanics. And common sense continues to apply on the human scale.

I don't think you get the point of the exercise. The point of the exercise was to ask does reality exist after your conscousness ceases? While you and your grandfather exist, you are there to see reality, but after you cease to exist there is no such thing as reality. To assert that reality still exists even when you are not there to see it is a belief. It is logically possible that your entire experience of reality, including your grandfather was a dream and that dream ends as soon as your consciousness ceases.

You have no way of testing whether there is a reality as soon as you cease to exist. So to make certain statements that there definitely is one after you exist is not a statement of reason, but a belief.

The point of the exercise is to show that you only believe there is a reality that can exist independent of you - you have no proof of it.

Now let us complicate reality a little, as you now understand my concept of god. Yes, you are right, there is a reality that willl continue to exist even at the death of the body - but not if conscousness ceases. Humans share a reality that they can agree on, but this is because they have similar minds that access reality in the same way. However, not all creatures have the same mind as us and will access reality in the same way. If a human looks at a chair they will see something different to what a bird sees. If you were capable of seeing atoms, you would see something completely different.

Therefore something does indeed exist, but it is not independent of us, but appears in relation to how we observe. It is then by definition not a real something, because realism is the philosophy that there are things out there that are independent of us. However, in actuality, nothing is independent of us but depends upon our observation of it.

Now let me complicate it further. You know now that I am saying that the real observer is god. Does this mean there is one supreme observer and many human observers? No, because there is no such thing as a human obsever. If you try to define personal identity you will find it is a changing complex depending on memories, names, beliefs, values, social interactions, body etc. Thus the human personality is not a real being or a real thing. It is an illusion of self. Therefore there is only ONE observer and it is not the human. This observer is eternal. Therefore the death of the human personality does not mean the end of consciousness.

If you have followed the reasoning up until now you will be able to draw the conclusion that there is no reality without consciousness. This consciousness cannot die, because it is never born. It is the beingness and it is eternal and infinite. It is due to this consciousness that there is any reality at all.

You are closer than you think. Yes, the human is the living dead. Insofar as the human identifies itself as a thinking thing, it is not really. The human is not the real thinker. It is not the real self. It is just a personality complex that changes from moment to moment. As soon as you allow your consciousness to become misidentified with this personality complex you become the living dead.

The personality complex is just one part of a complex mental structure. The personality complex dies at death along with body, but your mind continues on in another plane of reality in a subtle-body. Much like your dream-body in dream.