Conscious universe getting more support by scientists.

reply to post by sirnex

Consciousness must be a factor because irregardless of what a conscious entity labels a physical configuration or process that label given or data obtained and given meaning through symbols and labels itself doesn't change that configuration or process?

It changes YOUR obveration

keep up mate...

labels a physical configuration or process that label given or data obtained

you are not even aware you agree with us do you??

LOL

hey jezus this is classic funny stuff ..

sirex: engery is a work thing!! of matter!!!
Logic : what makes up matter
Sirex: ITS THE SAME THING!!!

Sirex: The universe as a whole is not CONSIOUSE!!!

reply to post by 13579

It changes YOUR obveration

If I throw a rock at you and you call it a feather... what would happen?

reply to post by sirnex


i would call you stupid for calling it a feather? when its a rock?

whats your point?

If i said your the universe beacause you consist of the very same thing that entitles you to be here "ie consious"

what would you say?

IM HUMAN?

lol..

[edit on 3-1-2010 by 13579]

reply to post by 13579

whats your point?

The point is in the discussion between Jezus and I, if you were following the discussion, you would understand the point. No, you'd rather be a nitwit and argue with me for the sake of arguing. How about adding something of value, inputting some real intelligent thought, hm?

Originally posted by sirnex
Consciousness must be a factor because irregardless of what a conscious entity labels a physical configuration or process that label given or data obtained and given meaning through symbols and labels itself doesn't change that configuration or process?

Exactly.

That is a long way to say it, but the point is data is not physically related to what it describes.

When the data is available to distinguish what slit the particles use, they must use one of the two slits.

When the data is not available the pattern on the back wall is a wave (interference) pattern.

Since the data itself is not in any way physically related to the pattern, it is just an instrumental observation of it, the factor must be consciousness.

The factor is potential knowledge for a conscious entity.

reply to post by sirnex


ok ill try but your iq is some what limted to "insults"... here goes..

A human BEING is MADE from MATTER like a ROCK is.. WE on the other hand are not ROCKS..

because LIFE is A function "like a electon" is a function ..

YOU say the UNIVERSE can not be CONSCIOUS AS A PHYSICAL THING... YET

YOU ARE

reply to post by 13579

A human BEING is MADE from MATTER like a ROCK is.. WE on the other hand are not ROCKS..

Before I dissect this any further, is an unconscious rock *also* the universe as a *whole*?

reply to post by Jezus

Exactly.

OK, so consciousness does not change reality itself, only the description of reality is what is being changed. Great, we finally came to an agreement on something.

reply to post by sirnex

Before I dissect this any further, is an unconscious rock *also* the universe as a *whole*?

is a rock alive?

I look forwad to it sirex

i really do.. more so your insults..

[edit on 3-1-2010 by 13579]

reply to post by sirnex

OK, so consciousness does not change reality itself, only the description of reality is what is being changed.

Thus changing reality...

You know

Man: the world is flat
Man2: Ok
Man3: Its not.. its round
Man4: is he right?
Man5: Yep he is
Man: ok that changed my reality of things




you seem to dont get that we are made of matter and every time you THINK of something

is chaging MATTER ie YOUR MIND

YOURS physical BEING

becaue without physical parts you do not get a mind do you now?>>>

that is why you have to understand the "concept" and acceptence that just because the universe is not TALKING to you saying HELLO HI IM THE UNIVERSE

thats not a PART of a FUNCTION

let us not for get how SMALL WE ARE SIREX??? yet how BIG we are compared to atoms?

do you not see you entire BEING "life its self" could be a ATOM of its self?

in someones HEAD

? is that so far fetched? well not really after all.. YOUR HERE ARNT YOU? or do you think thats NORMAL? or GRANTED TO YOU?

i deal in facts not bull# mate... trust me on that

[edit on 3-1-2010 by 13579]

reply to post by 13579

is a rock alive?

How about answering my question?

i really do.. more so your insults..

If I were to call you a hypocrite for making that statement, would I really be insulting you?

reply to post by 13579

Thus changing reality...

You know

Man: the world is flat
Man2: Ok
Man3: Its not.. its round
Man4: is he right?
Man5: Yep he is
Man: ok that changed my reality of things

The opinion/assumption of reality changes, not reality itself. Lack of knowledge and the act of obtaining that knowledge doesn't change the shape of the Earth prior to obtaining said knowledge. It remains round regardless of your explicit knowledge of it's physical shape.

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by Jezus

 

Exactly.

OK, so consciousness does not change reality itself, only the description of reality is what is being changed. Great, we finally came to an agreement on something.

Well not sure what you think the difference is...

The point is the consciousness having the knowledge of what slit the particle uses forces the particle to use only one slit and create a particle pattern instead of a wave pattern.

reply to post by sirnex

The opinion/assumption of reality changes, not reality itself

Yes but understand what it is fact you are saying... i do not bash you as for not undertanding what im trying to get across..

BUT we are MADE from matter .. a system of functions that creates us?? yet we view it.. "the rock"

But we are not rocks.. are we? we are living beings witht the ablity to do something a rock can not

REPODUCE

that is what makes us special.. A rock is only a sub part of all that is.. just like the skin on your body or the cells that make your work.

But as a whole as your want to quantify do indeed make you

everything you are is from interaction with the very same thing that created you sirex..

you see my friend the reason you live for ever is not that you are going to be around for ever.. but the very fact your able to interact with me.

This is like you and me putting pebbles in water

the human life "our life" is just the same we are the pebble and water.. you just have to step back and see it

I have No idead who made the universe but i understand how it works..

why is that? because i always wanted the truth sirex...

if you can understand we are one of the same thing my friend you will be better off and not insult people as much as you are... Yes can disagree

but the very fact you alive to do so rings alarms bells for me and always has

what is the function of LIFE?

not what is its outcome.. for if one knows what your dealing all the answers one has becomes aparant other than WHY it is it happens to be.. because i can never asnwer that..

becaus i dont kno who is asking? or what question , yet i can quantify it using science and my self as proof and fact that we are indeed in a function of a massive scale and also a reflection of it.. as we are it? it made us and we observe it

the only thing i can say and trust me when i say this

we live in a MIND

or you wouldnt have one.. and the biggest cluse is symmerty

and that my friend is a mathmatical logical reason for saying what i do.. and why i know what i say

can not in fact be proven wrong not even by science as i base it on what we understand and know and what i know i am and how i work.

there is no god for me.. only an outcome of a function

life is the election that has foce and you my dear friend are the obvserver

small? yes u are? important? VERY... or you wouldnt be needed would you



and thats why you are the god partical you connect both matter and engery and made of the very same thing..

LIFE force

reply to post by Jezus

Well not sure what you think the difference is...

Changing a description of something does not inherently change the physical configuration of that something. That is the difference.

The point is the consciousness having the knowledge of what slit the particle uses forces the particle to use only one slit and create a particle pattern instead of a wave pattern.

Please refer to actual experiments that have been performed. This is not included in any of those experiments in any way shape or form. Not implied, not explicitly demanded. I don't accept unperformed experiments and conjectured results as "proof" of anything. Just not that gullible and naive.

reply to post by 13579

But we are not rocks.. are we? we are living beings witht the ablity to do something a rock can not

Let's try to get back at answering that question, it's a simple yes or no.

Before I dissect this any further, is an unconscious rock *also* the universe as a *whole*?

This thread has become a classic example of one of the earliest Greek arguments that Plato [ Father of idealism ] and Desocitrus [ Father of materialism and modern science ] have waged since 300 BC.

Physicists have reduced matter reality down into Quantum arguments which fundamentally address matter as being information in the form of wave functions. This information exists as potential or probable reality until it is observed causing wave function collapse.

Particle dualism is scientific fact that particles can be both wave function and particles and CERN is currently looking for the Higgs boson elementary scalar particle or god particle to us understand the bridge between a wave and a particle.

Copenhagen interpretation implies that wave functions collapse into particles when observed. Physicists have argued that the act of observation does affect wave function collapse. Wolfgang Pauli and Werner Heisenberg supported the argument while Einstein rejected it as anti-scientific and mystical.

It is the modern day argument of materialism vs idealism in physics. Plato vs Desocitrus. And this argument has caused a rift in physical sciences since the 1930's with the introduction of the observer effect.

We can reduce matter down to wave functions and in that research we discover that matter is potential information only. Why it's potential is because we do not know it exists until we observe it. The act of observing allows us to collapse the information into something we can observe.

Without observation, reality exists as probability and lacks actuality. Actualization of reality by the Observer is how we experience reality. This act of observation also produces Qualia such as taste, feelings and other subjective metaphors that leave the final rendering of data into reality as a totally subjective act of observation.

I cannot prove that how I taste chocolate is the same way you taste chocolate, and the chocolate we eat only has the potential of taste which doesn't exist until we create the Qualia of taste by simply tasting it. This argument of perception is easily demonstrated between two people observing colors where one of the persons is color blind. Their perception of reality is different then the other persons perception.

This is even more evident when we observe plants through the Ultra-violet spectrum and new patterns emerge on the plants www.naturfotograf.com...

We do not see these patterns but insects do. The law of perception changes reality based on the sensory apparatus because all reality is, is data or information. This data needs to be interpreted and rendered into a model representing the data as closely as possible.

Our body is an interface to this data and uses the sensory apparatus which in turn translates energies in the form of sight, sound, touch, taste and smell and converts this incoherent energy into a coherent interpretation of that energy.

This interpretation is a mind-rendered virtual reality projected on the canvas of the mind where by we then interact with this mental hologram. The material by which our mind renders the information into color, taste, sound etc is thought forms.

Light in this canvas is not actually light rather an organized thought in the form of light. You can never... ever... see light for what it really is. You only see a mind-rendered interpretation of light based on sensory stimuli. This interpretation exists purely as thought. This holds true for all perceived stimuli, that the rendered result is a mental thought form and construct.

Dreaming also mimics this act of perception and the mental canvas by which we perceive and render reality is the same mental canvas that we perceive the dream world. The canvas is the same, but the information being perceived is different. Psychoactive drugs will influence what we mentally render on this mental canvas.

For us, the human observer... our reality exists as a mind-generated interpretation and we exist in a mind-generated mirror that has only a minor modeled view of the external world we exist in. Our true reality is one of pure thought, pure consciousness. It has always been thought and always will be thought that renders our perception of reality.

Thought organized into the mind generated illusion of taste, touch, color, sound, smell and spacial distance.

Dreaming is another example of how we organize thought into the perception of a virtual dream reality.

Where the enigma comes for some of us is... sometimes certain dreams come true. I know for fact some of you have had dreams that one day later have come true. This precognitive dream, this deja reve is likely the source of deja vu for most people.

Physical law and materialism cannot quantify precognitive dreaming yet the anecdotal evidence is overwhelming and there are ample studies on precognition which have recorded hits and misses.

Skeptics count the misses and ignore the hits and argue on misses only that the reality of precognition is false. I know from first hand experience that precognition in the form of dreaming exists and have my own personal evidence and data to satisfy my knowledge of this reality. Many other people with personal experience also come to their own conclusions and acceptance of the phenomena.

Precognitive dreaming represents Platonic idealism and dates back to the dawn of recorded history. It's materialism's Achilles heel.

Originally posted by YouAreDreaming
Copenhagen interpretation implies that wave functions collapse into particles when observed. Physicists have argued that the act of observation does affect wave function collapse.

What is interesting is that it is not simply the measurement that causes the wave function.

When measurement takes place, but the information is deleted after the experiment, the pattern is still a particle pattern as if it was not observed.

So it is about the availability of information to a conscious entity.

reply to post by Jezus

What is interesting is that it is not simply the measurement that causes the wave function.

When measurement takes place, but the information is deleted after the experiment, the pattern is still a particle pattern as if it was not observed.

So it is about the availability of information to a conscious entity.

Please provide an experiment that has been *performed* (note: this means actually done. i.e. not unperformed) that proves such a case.

reply to post by sirnex


So you can ignore it again?

No thanks, do your own homework.